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Positive The Tapering Supportive/Social Thread

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7:30 pm here. Today is sucking a little. Had a stressful morning and used most of today's pills. Now I'm really hurting from the surgery and I would have to break my new rules to take a little more for pain relief.
I'm going to suck it up and stick to the plan. Go to bed early, and wait til morning so I don't cheat. I'm tired of cheating and feeling like a loser afterwards.
 
I made it through the night sticking to my taper plan. I was so exhausted I slept until I woke up drenched in sweat around 1:30am. So I took a dose, and went back to sleep. I woke up around 6:30am and took another dose. I am shooting for taking about 4 day.

My new doctor wants me to wean off of my ativan. I am not surprised, as there is much bad news out there about people who combine opiates and benzos together have the highest rate of OD and dying. Last night though, I was too upset. I just too my regular ativan. He did prescribe something called nortriptyline...have any of you tried it? He said it will help me sleep in place of the ativan.
 
How long have you been on the lorazepam? Opiates don't treat my panic disorder so I am on a benzo as well. I am going to have to deal with that at another time. Already got my hands full, I went down to 50mg today.
 
:\ Hey POkemama...Ativan literally saved my life almost 30 years ago. I spiraled into horrid anxiety and depression post major GI surgery in 1987. MANY anti-anxiety meds were tried, but turned me into a drooling zombie. My old school GP (since birth) prescribed Ativan for the anxiety/sleeplessness. My prescribed dosage was 1 mg 3xday, advised to take 2 at bedtime. I have remained at this dosage for just shy of 25 years.

IMO, doctors nowadays are going off the rails with this DEA hype. I had a new GP in 2010 tell me I was taking an "OLD BENZO". Yep, I asked "what's a benzo?". She wanted to change me to a newer med, but I graciously informed her that I was not interested. In my world, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I did my research and found another female GP with the same philosophy as my old GP (now deceased). She writes my Ativan and Zoloft, but doesn't write pain meds. I see a PM doctor for that.

I have no doubt that my body is dependent on the Ativan. I'm okay with that. The Zoloft, however, is not "holding" my depression. I'm considering trying another one, but hate to go through those trials again. Has anyone tried Trintellix?

Sending positive thoughts to those who are suffering...always.
 
Dixi: Hi there! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with Ativan. I feel the same way about it... it is so helpful and keeps me on an even keel. I also sleep well on it. I think that the people who OD on the combination of benzos and opiates are taking a lot... alot!! I take 1mg ativan at bedtime. That is it. In fact, Dixi, although I will try to wean off the ativan this month, I will tell my doctor exactly what you said, if you do not mind me "borrowing" your words: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I did not go to the doctor with complaints about the ativan- I went there b/c my current pain management clinic is shut down. The stress I feel , which comes in waves during the day, is pretty intense. It is not the way I want to continue to live my life.

Shroomy: I have been on my ativan for about 4 years now... always just 1mg at bedtime. I have not increased my dosage in that time, and it still works. It will be interesting to see what happens tonight. I will take .5mg ativan and 25mg nortriptyline. I will not just quit my ativan; I am not afraid of seizures at my low dosage, however I do not want to wake up tomorrow morning with panic or anxiety. It is not the way I want to start my day. And you are right... we are working hard here to lower our dosages of opiates, who wants the added pressure of lowering/stopping benzos? I am not telling the doctor that I am trying to taper. I feel the way you and squeaky do... it is my business. If I told him I was tapering my opiates, I bet you he would lower my dosage by 50%.

You know, the DEA has all our doctors running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Everyone is so afraid... the pharmacists, the doctors, etc. American medicine just sucks.

I am feeling very depressed today. I know it is due to several things: trying to take as little oxycodone as possible; being told I am getting cut off my ativan; the experiences yesterday of running around to pharmacies and calling them and not being able to locate my newly prescribed meds;
and.. I still have to get a referral to a orthopedic surgeon so that I can be assessed for injections and physical therapy to stay in compliance with my new pain management doctor. Overwhelming.
 
Poke mama, do you take that for sleep? My girlfriends gramma lived til 90 and took it her whole life, they would still give her shit at the pharmacy about it. I am normally taking a higher dose than that, my panic disorder is real nasty. This is almost like a practice taper for that taper. And you're right in saying that if you lower your dose, your extra pills are your reward. I wouldn't bring it up.

I skipped a dose today, it was a really bad idea. I am staying at 60mg I'm still nowhere near stable on that, so an additional cut today was bad news. I was feeling ambitious I guess. Almost caused me to take a high dose. Made me realize that I still have a long road ahead of acute withdrawal.
 
Shroomi- I don't know if you read my new plan, but skipping a dose or being too agressive because I was feeling strong that day has been the underlying reason I crashed and burned each previous attempt of tapering. Last night I tried 450 mg Lyrica and really slept.... heavy sleep. Woke up really foggy and shaky (hungover from the Lyrica). Because of that, today I had the chance to lower my dose from 75 yesterday to 60 mg today. Instead, I took the extra 10 mg in the evening and got a little high. Grand total today is 70 mg, and that is now my new daily max per my tapering plan (rule: decrease daily dose by no more than 5 mg).
Whst I used to do is jump down the 15 mg reduction and try to stick to it. When I failed, I gave myself the excuse that my taper was broken anyway so why suffer? I would instantly be back at 90 or 100 mg/ day, trying to stabilize at 90 mg/day so I could start tapering again.
I guess my new plan is working. I dropped my dose today by 5 mg and I feel pretty great for myself. I think that means I'll stick to it.
 
I got off Ativan last year after using 6 mg/ day for 6 months. Tried cold turkey, but I had a seizure and didn't sleep the whole first night. Tapering took me about 6 weeks. It was hard, but worth it.
For my second back surgery I went back on the Ativan about 3 weeks before the surgery.
That stuff is strong and dangerous, but it saved my life. I had life altering panic attacks around my surgeries and the Ativan really got them under control.
I'll be starting a taper for the Ativan as soon as I'm off the oxy. I have a stash of at least 200 mg of Ativan just in case my doc decides to cut me off. Cold turkey off that stuff can be fatal.
 
I took a 30mg IR dose this morning because yesterday was way too hard on me skipping a dose, I woke up a mess. I got very high and it was wonderful but also incredibly risky. I wanted more and I was talking myself out of the taper when I was high but I've come off it now, I should be fine to continue with my 15mg doses and overall it will average out to 60mg per day. Once I hit withdrawal again before my next dose, any thoughts of continuing on with high doses were not longer prevalent. I don't think I can handle going any lower than that. It's not worth the risk of a total relapse. I should probably call it a dose adjustment, and not a taper at this point.

Squeaky I definitely dodged a bullet there, I guess I needed to see for myself that a harsh taper won't suffice. I considered going straight back to 120mg right away. The feeling from 30mg was incredible, my mind had the focus of a laser, no pain, timeless spiritual state, but I need to keep in mind the withdrawal symptoms.

Goes to show how dangerous reverting to a high dose even once can be, if you are doing something along the same lines as me.
 
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Yeah Shroomi, that's what was happening with me before. Last night I had to take an extra 10 mg to keep up my rule of NOT decreasing by more than 5 mg/day . Had I not done that, I would have woken up in major wd's and taken so much this a.m. that I would have blown my taper for sure today.
Instead, last night I took an extra dose of 10 mg. I got a little high, which was nice. That totalled 5 mg less for my taper. Today I woke upfeeling o.k and I am ready to stick to the new lower dose.
This is working well for me so far.
I hope your plans work for you.
 
I read you mentioning about how you relapsed, but it still nearly got me the same way! I think reading that helped me out today, because you had written about it before I got high this morning. Almost predicting what was going to happen. Whoever thought tapering too quick could set you back. I've been getting a little high along with the relief off all these 15mg doses lately, since my tolerance is down a bit, and it has been alright but I don't think I can handle the really pleasurable doses at all. There is a certain line and if I cross it and attain a certain level of high it is very hard for me to walk away from it. Otherwise, I don't find lower therapeutic doses to be addictive in the same way. Anything other than oral use is completely off limits.

Once I feel that energy and focus, that magical state of interconnected mindfulness I don't want it to leave and I am so much more productive and happier. I wouldn't have taken a big dose (for me) like that if I didn't wake up in godawful wd's and had such a miserable day yesterday from not dosing for 12 hours straight. I'm not sure man, but you would think it wouldn't be so finicky once you've been on the right track for a while. Taking 30mg IR, after dropping my dose by 15mg one day earlier nearly ruined all of this though. I had yet to feel the symptoms that way... my brain felt kind of 'cracked out' or I guess strung out in a way and when I dosed I quickly felt normal. Man how the fuck did I get strung out on drugs exactly?

It was only 4 hours later, when I hit a worse interdose withdrawal than usual, that I realized my mistake. While high I was talking myself back into it the whole time, 120mg/day right away, thinking about the short term benefits (which were all correct, the devil keeps his back-stabbing promises). I was going to run with it, but the withdrawal symptoms are such a deterrent. Thanks man, I hope it works for you too. I dodged my first bullet and it helped to read this thread, I wouldn't want to give up on myself and my goals.

I've had my IR doses since then and I'm back on track to 15mg. I can't help but notice the symptoms are worse since I got high, I am even having to pay a price for those 4 hours. I am going to taper by the smallest amount available to me - half a perc each week (2.5 mg oxy)... but I'm not even going to attempt that until probably 2 weeks from now while I hold up the 60mg fort. I am hoping that interdose withdrawals at the 4 hour mark which I experience for 2 hours before dosing again, and up to an hour after dosing will eventually stabilize, which should happen because I am noticing a gradual tolerance drop. At that point, I will start the next stage of my taper.
 
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Shroomy and Squeaky: Your posts are so valuable to me, that it is difficult to find words to express my feelings of appreciation and just plain love. To read about others going through the exact same issues as myself is so validating and creates hope.

I had such a bad day yesterday... so hopeless. Of course, it was the drugs. Coming off of little doses of oxymorphone you would not think I would feel any differences by starting my oxycodone. But, I sure did. There is something in oxymorphone that fixes my depression so perfectly that oxycodone feels "dirty". I do not know how else to describe it.

I did take 30mg of oxycodone this morning, knowing full well I will pay the price later, through plummeting mood into depression. However, I had much paperwork to complete that has deadlines coming up. For example: I have student loans, and had to fill out all the re-certification paperwork to keep my payments low; also my annual vehicle registration fees are due the end of the month; as well as some other types of paperwork. I had to call my GP to get a referral to an orthopedic surgeon as the medication is not relieving my knee pain enough for me to be functional. I was told I had to make an appointment, which is fair. So the middle of next week I do need to meet with my GP. Hopefully he will not be nitpicky and will just give me the referral. I researched through Yelp and medical sites, and found an orthopedic surgeon that did not have many negative reviews. Some have so many.

I still have to go to Office Depot and copy my tax papers and then go to the post office to mail my paperwork. I am struggling with the fact that I want to take another 30 mg to complete these tasks. If I do so, then I basically cannot take anything... maybe 1 emergency 15mg dose of oxycodone this evening.

Last night, I took only .5mg of ativan, instead of the 1mg as usual. I was so surprised! My sleep pattern was no different than usual - I always seem to wake up around 1-2am and stay up for about an hour, and then I go back to sleep again. However, when I woke up, I was experiencing anxiety... however, I am attributing that to knowing I had all that paperwork hanging over my head.

If I can get used to feeling depressed and not focus on it, I can definitely keep on track with my taper. I, too, do not plan on going any lower... with the oxycodone 60-75mg are fine. Once I get my oxymorphone, I will do a couple of experimental days to figure out which dosage is the most stabilizing without getting high. I am in no hurry... as that creates its own anxiety... slow and steady wins the race.
 
Knowing what I know now from my somewhat limited experiences with tapering opiates this is the advise I would give to anyone trying to quit:
1: figure out your current baseline. If you need 100 mg /day then that's fine. Stick to that amount for four days without deviating regardless of how you take your doses.
2: pick a reasonable dosing schedule. For me, I take a dose about 2 hours before I wake up. Then one every 4 hours. Total 5 doses per day.
3: set rules and never ever break them. Mine are that I can stay at my current dose as long as necessary, but I can never go back to a previously higher daily dose. Also, i can never lower my daily dose by more than 5 mg/day- even if I'm feeling strong that day. I can take my pills however I like during the day, but I can never deviate from today's daily dose plan. Sometimes it means I take extra in the evening and I get to get high while still accomplishing my goal of lowering my daily dose by 5 mg(but no more than 5 mg!)
 
So far the result of this plan has been the last week went like this:
In mg/day of oxycodone: 90,85,80,75,75,70 and today I hope to hit 65. But my nephew is coming for a couple of hours today, so I may try to save some pills for tonight after he leaves. In which case I will be getting high and likely take 70 total for the day.
Edit- I went for the extra dose, so today's total is 70 mg, same as yesterday and within the boundaries of my rules for tapering?
The important thing here is that even though I have had WD's, my doses are around 4 hours apart. SO I always have hope that relief is just around the corner without guilt of breaking any of my rules. (Guilt plays hard on my mind and can quickly send me into depression and then a massive panic attack that can linger for 2 or 3 days).
 
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*Thanks for taking the time to organize your plan in writing... so helpful!
 
Poke mama, you are totally right; slow and steady wins the race. I think writing out the plans is an excellent idea. And even if we screw up a little bit, getting right back to it as planned, not focusing on our mess ups. Face it, we're going to mess up from time to time. Let's not punish ourselves and push ourselves further away from our goals.

I agree; Thank you all for your posts. I'm not as verbal, but I'm reading and being greatly encouraged by your sharing and progress.

Wishing everyone a less painful night!
 
Oh, and I take 5 mg of Valium (diazepam) every night at bed. Yes, you're right, it's people using HIGH doses and often adding alcohol that have dire issues. I am prescribed my Valium as a muscle relaxer. I have to say, at the low dose I'm at, I can skip nights and not notice it. I take trazedone to sleep. Man, I take a shit ton of pills. Sorry for the language.
 
I am taking between 5 and 8 mg per day of Ativan (Lorazepam) for panic attacks. When I'm done with the oxy, I will have to taper of the Ativan also. Right now I really need the Ativan to keep me alive. Hopefully when I go back to work and some kind of regular productive schedule I can just use it for treating random panic episodes instead of this sort of perpetual crushing hoplessness I've been swirling in since I became disabled.
 
I am on a similar dose of benzos, before that I spent a year having daily panic attacks and it was so bad I forgot about the back pain most of the time. To be honest I feel like it was my body trying to distract me from the pain, and the stress I had been through from untreated chronic physical agony eventually something 'snapped' and I started to panic to the point of attacks much too often to the extent that panic ruled my life. Whatever the underlying reason it is quite miserable.

I am on a similar dose of benzos for panic disorder. I find they don't treat my other anxiety though, like my social anxiety. Just the physical feeling of impending death from heart attack and racing uncontrollable thoughts. Right now that's just a necessity and I can't even think about dealing with those anytime soon. I was pretty bad with them too... I was on a number of different benzos over the years. Bromazepam, clonazepam, lorazepam, etizolam, alprazolam, midazolam, diazepam... it is a bit more under control now as it was recognized as a huge problem but I basically did the same thing with those. Got a panic disorder, couldn't get medical treatment despite trying, couldn't handle the constant sheer panic, fucked around with benzos before getting them prescribed, now struggling to keep it therapeutic. Exact same thing actually if you replace 'oxycodone' everywhere with 'diazepam' and 'pain' with 'panic attack'.

I am considering a heavy duty psychedelic experience for some reason. I am not inexperienced and it has been a long while. The thought came to me and will not leave me alone. I feel like it is a good time for dmt. Dmt is a good one because it is easy on the body, lasting only 15 minutes. Not like a harsh acid trip oh for I'd never do that. I am thinking a hit at the peak of a taper dose when I'm not agitated. I can take that. I seriously need to get my life together and I was fascinated by dmt when I tried it, and it definitely had antidepressant aftereffects as well. I am becoming hyper-aware of the impermanence of my life and that I really need to get moving if I want to accomplish my long term goals.

I can't remember falling asleep last night, and I think I skipped my midnight dose. It was waiting for me when I woke up at 330 but to be sure I waited until 6am to dose. Not going back to sleep. I can't confirm that I didn't take it but I am almost positive I passed out after the spicy pad thai before midnight, being very stoned, and I take my benzo at an earlier time, 10pm, so that probably knocked me out. I didn't want any risk of two doses greater than 15mg spread out by 6 hours within a 24 hour period, so I waited.

It also helps to keep the end goal in sight. Life used to be great when I was taking small amounts of oxy, like 30mg a day. Life was great when I was just a big pothead. I worry about my health from all the pills, my god do I take a lot of pills and I could be doing it another 60 years. 15mg per day was way too little for my pain, even at the start, but I can definitely get down a little lower, at least making 60mg my max dose and not my regular dose. I try to remind myself that this suffering is only temporary but it's hard as the future is unpredictable. I can therefore use that to delude myself into using again along with the short term reward. I really need to remind myself that anything I gain from being more productive on drugs is paid back when I am depressed like this. The long term consequences of using more are even more unpredictable. It is about solidifying the fact in my mind that I no longer want to be addicted and all of the reasons behind my choice.

I'm definitely going to be using higher doses like yesterday in the future, because they can be very useful for pain, but not anytime soon. Even that one dose messed me up a bit. I've had pretty nasty interdose withdrawals since then, more body aches and stomach cramps. Once I stabilize on a low dose, I should be able to get away with getting powerful relief like that when I occasionally need it. It's going to take a while and it is best to accept that.

I find the hash oil really helps me out mentally, in moderation. If I am having a rough time it can take me out of my mind and view the suffering from the perspective of an outsider. It's quite dissociating and for now in withdrawal I have few rules with the stuff apart from never smoking it, I try to only vape and have edibles when I'm concerned for my health like this.

Also, a full stomach helps me stretch the feeling of the oxycodone out. I find I don't get as bad withdrawal before my next dose if I eat a lot of food.
 
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