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Positive The Tapering Supportive/Social Thread

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Here's the study
link.springer.com

Buprenorphine–cannabis interaction in patients undergoing opioid maintenance therapy - European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience

Buprenorphine is a partial μ-opioid agonist widely used for opioid maintenance therapy (OMT). It is mainly metabolized to pharmacologically active norbuprenorphine by the cytochrome P450 (CYP) isozyme 3A4. This may give rise to drug–drug interactions under combinations with inhibitors or...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
The case study half way down, under fig1 sounds like my predicament.
I'm going to start a thread on it, see if anyone else knows anything.
 
hylite said:
Wow I remember those days sitting around not being able to cope without getting stoned on weed.
How sad that was compared to recent days.
Now to even imagine that weed was that intense. Seems actually silly. But I'm just sad. ☹
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If it seems silly to think it was that intense then maybe you weren't puking your guts up, sweating, unable to eat for two days if you went without weed? That's the point, what the fuck is going on here?
 
It’s really difficult to pin down exactly the cause when you feel like shit and there’s several potential causes. I gave up all processed foods for a while and it took a solid two weeks before I felt ‘ok’. During that time the only thing I did was drink alcohol and I didn’t change that at all, so I knew it was the food. Now I have several addictions. Who the hell knows why I feel crappy today.

I know the only real solution is to quit everything, but that sounds a lot easier than it actually is.
 
I'm doing the best I've ever done without my DOC.
It's been three weeks. Any other time I'm gnawing my fingernails to the bone by now.
It's got to be the kratom.
I'm not saying the bupe isn't also great, but I had that on other occassions and not felt the lack of cravings I have now.
So both together works nicely to ensure I still have energy enough to keep going.
Thought if I got to this point I could travel, I don't think possession of Kratom is illegal in the UK, just trade in it.
But now I got this interaction thing going on and my relapse danger (probably) skyrockets without some herb to vape.
I've a plan to eat grapefruit next time I get around to having a day off, see if that helps.

Reading up on Grapefruit, I found this for @Squeaky

Oxycodone: grapefruit juice enhances the exposure to oral oxycodone. A randomized, controlled trial 12 healthy volunteers ingested 200 mL of either grapefruit juice or water three times daily for five days. On the fourth day 10 mg of oxycodone hydrochloride were administered orally. Analgesic and behavioral effects were reported for 12 hours and plasma samples were analyzed for oxycodone metabolites for 48 hours. Grapefruit juice increased the mean area under the oxycodone concentration-time curve (AUC(0-∞)) by 1.7 fold, the peak plasma concentration by 1.5-fold and the half-life of oxycodone by 1.2-fold as compared to water.
 
papercuts said:
I'm doing the best I've ever done without my DOC.
It's been three weeks. Any other time I'm gnawing my fingernails to the bone by now.
It's got to be the kratom.
I'm not saying the bupe isn't also great, but I had that on other occassions and not felt the lack of cravings I have now.
So both together works nicely to ensure I still have energy enough to keep going.
Thought if I got to this point I could travel, I don't think possession of Kratom is illegal in the UK, just trade in it.
But now I got this interaction thing going on and my relapse danger (probably) skyrockets without some herb to vape.
I've a plan to eat grapefruit next time I get around to having a day off, see if that helps.

Reading up on Grapefruit, I found this for @Squeaky

Oxycodone: grapefruit juice enhances the exposure to oral oxycodone. A randomized, controlled trial 12 healthy volunteers ingested 200 mL of either grapefruit juice or water three times daily for five days. On the fourth day 10 mg of oxycodone hydrochloride were administered orally. Analgesic and behavioral effects were reported for 12 hours and plasma samples were analyzed for oxycodone metabolites for 48 hours. Grapefruit juice increased the mean area under the oxycodone concentration-time curve (AUC(0-∞)) by 1.7 fold, the peak plasma concentration by 1.5-fold and the half-life of oxycodone by 1.2-fold as compared to water.
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Grapefruit juice should react with metabolizm of bupe.Its inhibitor of those enzym that brokes down bupe to norpubrenorphine.(thats mean more time bupe circulate in your body)Drank this days grapefruit juice and cannot say that i have noticed any reaction,but it seems booster my valium levels(same enzym).It work for sure to some degree with oxy,codeine and dhc(for me).Its great that kratom helps you.as to weed dont bother too much...it wont hurt you and if you feel olright just smoke a joint.I will right nowIts early in the morning,dark and cold and i am goin outside the house to inhale.Have a good day!
 
I tried the grapefruit trick once. I didn’t get anything but heartburn. Truthfully though, I was taking huge amounts of oxy and I think I only drank the juice for a day or two. The way I was going back then I doubt I would have felt anything even if I had doubled my oxy.
 
papercuts said:
I'm doing the best I've ever done without my DOC.
It's been three weeks. Any other time I'm gnawing my fingernails to the bone by now.
It's got to be the kratom.
I'm not saying the bupe isn't also great, but I had that on other occassions and not felt the lack of cravings I have now.
So both together works nicely to ensure I still have energy enough to keep going.
Thought if I got to this point I could travel, I don't think possession of Kratom is illegal in the UK, just trade in it.
But now I got this interaction thing going on and my relapse danger (probably) skyrockets without some herb to vape.
I've a plan to eat grapefruit next time I get around to having a day off, see if that helps.

Reading up on Grapefruit, I found this for @Squeaky

Oxycodone: grapefruit juice enhances the exposure to oral oxycodone. A randomized, controlled trial 12 healthy volunteers ingested 200 mL of either grapefruit juice or water three times daily for five days. On the fourth day 10 mg of oxycodone hydrochloride were administered orally. Analgesic and behavioral effects were reported for 12 hours and plasma samples were analyzed for oxycodone metabolites for 48 hours. Grapefruit juice increased the mean area under the oxycodone concentration-time curve (AUC(0-∞)) by 1.7 fold, the peak plasma concentration by 1.5-fold and the half-life of oxycodone by 1.2-fold as compared to water.
Click to expand...
For me life starts feeling normal after about 2 weeks. Major wd’s are gone after around a week. It doesn’t matter if I quit or if I just stabilize at a lower dose, or if I’m switching to a different opiate. At 3 weeks it feels like it wasn’t so hard after all. At that point the climbing slows to a crawl but the top of the mountain feels like it’s really close.

Don’t get comfortable. There’s a point (and you’re right there) when it feels like you have it beat. Every day feels like real progress. Then it feels like you actually could go back to your DOC just once and everything will be fine. Because you didn’t sleep enough last night, or because your in-laws are coming to your house for Christmas, doesn’t matter the reason. One step backwards is soooo much more than that. Even one time will set you back psychologically more than a week, and that’s assuming you actually only do it once.

My problem was that I do it once. Then it becomes one day. Then it becomes one weekend. Then Sunday night hits and it’s “as much as it takes tonight to make me really happy and I’ll get back on track tomorrow”. Then I’m desperately taking a little on Monday morning because I feel like shit and I have to perform well at work. Next thing I know it’s Friday and I have been doing it for a week and I’m making promises to use the weekend to get back to being responsible. After that I just give up and keep trying to taper unsuccessfully until the bottle is empty.

My wife can walk away from something like this every time. She gets angry at herself for being reliant on whatever it is and turns her anger into determination that whatever it is won’t define her life (doesn’t matter if it’s alcohol, food, weed, etc). I get to suffer because she’s in wd and pissed off, so I have to walk on eggshells until she’s past it. But she can handle it all and move on with life. I’m the person who can’t walk by a box of chocolates on the dining room table without grabbing one every time I walk through the house until they’re gone. Even if it’s upsetting my stomach, the sugar is keeping me awake at night, my teeth hurt, and I don’t even like whatever is inside the chocolate (like almonds). I’ll eat it all until it’s gone and really never enjoy more than the first bite. I guess that’s what they call an addictive personality.
 
Squeaky said:
For me life starts feeling normal after about 2 weeks. Major wd’s are gone after around a week. It doesn’t matter if I quit or if I just stabilize at a lower dose, or if I’m switching to a different opiate. At 3 weeks it feels like it wasn’t so hard after all. At that point the climbing slows to a crawl but the top of the mountain feels like it’s really close.

Don’t get comfortable. There’s a point (and you’re right there) when it feels like you have it beat. Every day feels like real progress. Then it feels like you actually could go back to your DOC just once and everything will be fine. Because you didn’t sleep enough last night, or because your in-laws are coming to your house for Christmas, doesn’t matter the reason. One step backwards is soooo much more than that. Even one time will set you back psychologically more than a week, and that’s assuming you actually only do it once.

My problem was that I do it once. Then it becomes one day. Then it becomes one weekend. Then Sunday night hits and it’s “as much as it takes tonight to make me really happy and I’ll get back on track tomorrow”. Then I’m desperately taking a little on Monday morning because I feel like shit and I have to perform well at work. Next thing I know it’s Friday and I have been doing it for a week and I’m making promises to use the weekend to get back to being responsible. After that I just give up and keep trying to taper unsuccessfully until the bottle is empty.

My wife can walk away from something like this every time. She gets angry at herself for being reliant on whatever it is and turns her anger into determination that whatever it is won’t define her life (doesn’t matter if it’s alcohol, food, weed, etc). I get to suffer because she’s in wd and pissed off, so I have to walk on eggshells until she’s past it. But she can handle it all and move on with life. I’m the person who can’t walk by a box of chocolates on the dining room table without grabbing one every time I walk through the house until they’re gone. Even if it’s upsetting my stomach, the sugar is keeping me awake at night, my teeth hurt, and I don’t even like whatever is inside the chocolate (like almonds). I’ll eat it all until it’s gone and really never enjoy more than the first bite. I guess that’s what they call an addictive personality.
Click to expand...
It's a familiar tightrope walk. I'm recognising the places I fell off last time. And the time before. Not to mention the other times and the not really times when I had not really intended more than a day off from my DOC, remembered just about the same time things got tough. I was in a lot of pain today, dunno why, I just was. If I want more bupe than I get now or fentanyl then good chance the doctor would give me it, so it's not a legitimate reason unless I want to postpone another trip (same place, same purpose still not got there).
That is my goal. I had no idea it would take so much of my thoughts and energy, just trying to have one week of being totally legit.
 
papercuts said:
It's a familiar tightrope walk. I'm recognising the places I fell off last time. And the time before. Not to mention the other times and the not really times when I had not really intended more than a day off from my DOC, remembered just about the same time things got tough. I was in a lot of pain today, dunno why, I just was. If I want more bupe than I get now or fentanyl then good chance the doctor would give me it, so it's not a legitimate reason unless I want to postpone another trip (same place, same purpose still not got there).
That is my goal. I had no idea it would take so much of my thoughts and energy, just trying to have one week of being totally legit.
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I know that feeling all too well.

I’m convinced now that my only way out is to shut the door and never go back through it. And it’s going to take years to get to feeling ’good’ again. Every time I think about it, I just give up. It’s too damn hard. I suffer through a week or 3 until my next refill and then promise myself that this time will be different but it never really is. Opiates have a really sinister way of keeping me hooked in so many different ways that only people who have lived through it could comprehend.

I’m thinking hard right now about going to a different Dr and admitting how much I have been using so that they can start me on suboxone (probably and anti-depressant also). I keep saying I don’t want to be reliant on a prescription for the rest of my life but that’s so stupid, since that’s exactly where I am right now. One day the pandemic will be over and I’m going to want to get on an airplane, but that won’t be possible if I’m more worried about my pills than my luggage. And I can’t even imagine how much worse this whole thing gets if I get caught hiding drugs in my bag. Even just driving across state lines in the USA becomes a nightmare if I get caught with weed in the trunk.

I have never been to jail. Never been homeless or unemployed. Never had a heart attack or a divorce. It’s been a relatively uneventful life and I’m terrified that this mess is soon going to change all of that. I really don’t want to end up living under an overpass or dead.
 
Squeaky said:
I know that feeling all too well.

I’m convinced now that my only way out is to shut the door and never go back through it. And it’s going to take years to get to feeling ’good’ again. Every time I think about it, I just give up. It’s too damn hard. I suffer through a week or 3 until my next refill and then promise myself that this time will be different but it never really is. Opiates have a really sinister way of keeping me hooked in so many different ways that only people who have lived through it could comprehend.

I’m thinking hard right now about going to a different Dr and admitting how much I have been using so that they can start me on suboxone (probably and anti-depressant also). I keep saying I don’t want to be reliant on a prescription for the rest of my life but that’s so stupid, since that’s exactly where I am right now. One day the pandemic will be over and I’m going to want to get on an airplane, but that won’t be possible if I’m more worried about my pills than my luggage. And I can’t even imagine how much worse this whole thing gets if I get caught hiding drugs in my bag. Even just driving across state lines in the USA becomes a nightmare if I get caught with weed in the trunk.

I have never been to jail. Never been homeless or unemployed. Never had a heart attack or a divorce. It’s been a relatively uneventful life and I’m terrified that this mess is soon going to change all of that. I really don’t want to end up living under an overpass or dead.
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Try to not bother so much friend.I am sure you are in some kinda shit...and you suffer and struggle.Thats the life of many.If you got prescripted painkillers and you overabuse it,goin to subs could bring you some relief and lower drugseeking behaviour.You know that is great to feel good most of the time and can be done in some way with or without drugs.Being in low stable dose of longacting opioid and eventually use concominantly some AD could be benign.To stabilize,enter the tracks,focusing on positive things,establishe some healthy diet etc...Trying to fully quit with detox and go on with different programs-12 steps,behavioural therapy is great struggle with a big goal too.Theres wisdom in "the salvation of the drowning is in his own hands"
 
Squeaky said:
I know that feeling all too well.

I’m convinced now that my only way out is to shut the door and never go back through it. And it’s going to take years to get to feeling ’good’ again. Every time I think about it, I just give up. It’s too damn hard. I suffer through a week or 3 until my next refill and then promise myself that this time will be different but it never really is. Opiates have a really sinister way of keeping me hooked in so many different ways that only people who have lived through it could comprehend.

I’m thinking hard right now about going to a different Dr and admitting how much I have been using so that they can start me on suboxone (probably and anti-depressant also). I keep saying I don’t want to be reliant on a prescription for the rest of my life but that’s so stupid, since that’s exactly where I am right now. One day the pandemic will be over and I’m going to want to get on an airplane, but that won’t be possible if I’m more worried about my pills than my luggage. And I can’t even imagine how much worse this whole thing gets if I get caught hiding drugs in my bag. Even just driving across state lines in the USA becomes a nightmare if I get caught with weed in the trunk.

I have never been to jail. Never been homeless or unemployed. Never had a heart attack or a divorce. It’s been a relatively uneventful life and I’m terrified that this mess is soon going to change all of that. I really don’t want to end up living under an overpass or dead.
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There is so much prejudice against opiate users I strongly advise against offering yourself up on a platter for the hungry wolves. If it's worrying you that much maybe go to counselling with an addiction specialist? See what they say?
You mentioned being not too far off the age for medical retirement, how would it affect that? You might find your legitimate need for pain relief gets denied because of some regulation about addicts.
What's the connection between you taking your pills early and all the negative consequences? Is it affecting your ability to work?
You aren't in control of the situation as much as you'd like, but that doesn't mean your life will become a car crash.
I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, I don't mean to. You sound depressed and you wouldn't be human if you didn't have some PAWS from the oxy even though you have a weaker alternative. An antidepressant might help you feel more able to tackle the opioids.
 
papercuts said:
There is so much prejudice against opiate users I strongly advise against offering yourself up on a platter for the hungry wolves. If it's worrying you that much maybe go to counselling with an addiction specialist? See what they say?
You mentioned being not too far off the age for medical retirement, how would it affect that? You might find your legitimate need for pain relief gets denied because of some regulation about addicts.
What's the connection between you taking your pills early and all the negative consequences? Is it affecting your ability to work?
You aren't in control of the situation as much as you'd like, but that doesn't mean your life will become a car crash.
I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, I don't mean to. You sound depressed and you wouldn't be human if you didn't have some PAWS from the oxy even though you have a weaker alternative. An antidepressant might help you feel more able to tackle the opioids.
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Not too harsh. It’s good advice. You’re absolutely right: I really don’t want to end up in some database, listed as a “drug-seeker”
I can go back and forth about what a different kind of Dr might be able to do for me, but I think sub-consciously I am aware that its my own responsibility. In the end I always decide to handle it myself, whether it’s my broken back or my broken mind. BlueLight is great for me to be honest about my drug use. But outside of here I’m not excited about talking about my problems, even to a professional.

The biggest problem for me with the opiates is that they cure several problems all at once. My back pain, inability to sleep because of the pains, my ability to get work done (mainly around the house), etc.... but also the scrambled brains that I get from the fear that I have from knowing it’s never going to get better. On top of the PAWS making me depressed, I’m just really miserable knowing that this is my life now. Even after I’m done with the pills. I went from young and strong to old and broken, and it feels like it happened overnight. Opiates make the physical problems disappear but they also remove the fear and stress that those problems will never go away.


Y
I have had 3 or 4 court-ordered evaluations regarding my injury, from different Dr’s. Every one said things that sounded lk

“lifetime of pain mana lo gement”, “future surgeries”, “100% disabled”. Even the lawyer for the opposition said I was crazy for going back to work. Unfortunately however the reality is this.......
I have a child with special needs and we really need my wife to continue to homeschool, since the public school system sucks. The maximum disability payment for any person in the USA is roughly 1/2 what I earn at my job. So if I go for permanent db, the long term reality is that my family will get uprooted from their home. The fear of something like that’s aiłll byz far iî
 
Squeaky said:
Not too harsh. It’s good advice. You’re absolutely right: I really don’t want to end up in some database, listed as a “drug-seeker”
I can go back and forth about what a different kind of Dr might be able to do for me, but I think sub-consciously I am aware that its my own responsibility. In the end I always decide to handle it myself, whether it’s my broken back or my broken mind. BlueLight is great for me to be honest about my drug use. But outside of here I’m not excited about talking about my problems, even to a professional.

The biggest problem for me with the opiates is that they cure several problems all at once. My back pain, inability to sleep because of the pains, my ability to get work done (mainly around the house), etc.... but also the scrambled brains that I get from the fear that I have from knowing it’s never going to get better. On top of the PAWS making me depressed, I’m just really miserable knowing that this is my life now. Even after I’m done with the pills. I went from young and strong to old and broken, and it feels like it happened overnight. Opiates make the physical problems disappear but they also remove the fear and stress that those problems will never go away.


Y
I have had 3 or 4 court-ordered evaluations regarding my injury, from different Dr’s. Every one said things that sounded lk

“lifetime of pain mana lo gement”, “future surgeries”, “100% disabled”. Even the lawyer for the opposition said I was crazy for going back to work. Unfortunately however the reality is this.......
I have a child with special needs and we really need my wife to continue to homeschool, since the public school system sucks. The maximum disability payment for any person in the USA is roughly 1/2 what I earn at my job. So if I go for permanent db, the long term reality is that my family will get uprooted from their home. The fear of something like that’s aiłll byz far iî
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I'm really sorry you are stuck in that situation, it shows your strength of character that you are so determined to keep going through it all month in month out, in a few years time when you look back you will be glad that you put your family first now while you just slog through it. Parenting is tough and the more needs the kid has the less time the parents have for anything else. But you can't forget about yourself, do what you can to stay sane, stay alive and time will move forward until you can get better choices. Maybe one day it'll seem ok for you to homeschool and your wife to work, then your disability money could stretch? It's a tough one that.
 
Squeaky said:
I went from young and strong to old and broken, and it feels like it happened overnight.
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Yes, disability does that, it's really shit. I did everything from tiling half our house to fixing the cars and now I can't. It's been eight years for me since I was forced to quit my physically demanding job and started working freelance doing a sit down job. It is still hard knowing I can't do things I did so easily before.
Squeaky said:
Opiates make the physical problems disappear but they also remove the fear and stress that those problems will never go away.
Click to expand...
Temporarily, unless you can keep increasing, that's the trap we all know and love/hate it all the way.
 
I don't think I like this version of me as much as the "happy as fuck until I'm not" version that I am on opies.

I'm not much fun any more :cry:
 
And my thought patterns are becoming more and more negative. It's not just me I don't like, I'm not keen on other people any more either. I'm oversensitive to bloody EVERYTHING.
This is my longest abstenance in years from pods, 28 days, but I still got buprenorphine, kratom and weed. Ditched the other meds, don't want even more habits.
So if those three combined leave me feeling like this it's very tempting to go back to being happy.
This is where I ought to read back over my own posts and remind myself I decided to grow up a bit.
Anyone care to remind me why I'm doing this?
 
papercuts said:
And my thought patterns are becoming more and more negative. It's not just me I don't like, I'm not keen on other people any more either. I'm oversensitive to bloody EVERYTHING.
This is my longest abstenance in years from pods, 28 days, but I still got buprenorphine, kratom and weed. Ditched the other meds, don't want even more habits.
So if those three combined leave me feeling like this it's very tempting to go back to being happy.
This is where I ought to read back over my own posts and remind myself I decided to grow up a bit.
Anyone care to remind me why I'm doing this?
Click to expand...
I will....
Every road to pleasure is ultimately a dead end. Food, sex, Facebook, drugs. They all feel like the solution until you can’t get out of bed without popping a pill or checking if anyone ‘liked’ your post. It’s so obvious when you’re on the outside looking in at someone with infected needle tracks or shaking from alcohol withdrawals. But when it’s subtle and manageable (like when the Dr is still willing to increase your prescription), the real problem is very hard to pin down.

Life hurts..... a lot. We desperately search for ways to stop the pain. Ultimately the solution that worked yesterday becomes the source of tomorrow’s pain, but we fail to identify the real cause of our problems so we come up with new solutions that will eventually fail also.

Until we move past the bullshit politics of society, the loud flashy television programming, internet porn, and things like my mother-in-law and McDonald’s..... the pain will always return and we will always be searching for the next solution.

Some scientists did a test with a two groups of rats. One group was overcrowded in an exclosure with way too many other rats and basically nothing else. The other was in a rat utopia with healthy food, green grass, soft music, etc. Both groups were given unlimited access to heroin. The rats in the utopia barely tried using the heroin and ultimately left it alone. The rats in hell used it non stop, and several overdosed and died. I think it’s actually the rat race that is killing us.

As long as you still have a heartbeat, you haven’t lost yet. I’m stuck in the rat race with really no way out but I’m still breathing. If getting through today means alcohol, or pills, or weed, then I haven’t lost yet as long as I wake up tomorrow. And maybe one day I can retire, live a simpler life, in some sort of twisted human utopia, and I will be able to say I lived through it. And hopefully I will have the knowledge from this experience to help the next generation.
 
papercuts said:
I'm living in that rat utopia, I have fairly unlimited access to pods and I'm choosing to leave it alone.
Maybe I'll give up everything I own and trek to Nepal.
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I’m stuck in hell. I’m the only breadwinner in my house, so I can’t quit the job I hate because it pays well. My back is trashed, but I can’t afford to be on disability so I have to work. The job causes me plenty of back pain so I go for the pills. And when they run out I live in perpetual withdrawal.

Utopia for me would simply be retiring. Work at home when I can. Stay in bed when I can’t. And give up the pills forever.

But it is as they say..... Wish in one hand. Shit in the other. See which one fills up first.
 
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