The science of a cold water extraction and some solubility questions.

[rolls]

The topic I want to discuss is the cold water extraction of Codeine Phosphate from a solution of paracetamol, codeine, binders and water as the solvent. Basically the gist is that only maybe 1g of paracetamol will dissolve in 100ml of water, where as ~1g of codeine will dissolve in about 1ml of water.

Now I realise this is quite a simple technique, most certainly not suited for advanced drug discussion but I would like some fairly odd questions answered, and I know this is the place to do it as many of you have chemistry degrees.

Now the discussion started here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=423148 and the original thread that these posts were removed from was http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=6911448

If you have the time to read it please do, as it will give some background on why I am asking these questions.

Now it is mentioned many times on websites that codeines solubility actually increases as you decrease the temperature of the water, this intuitively doesn't make any sense, is it false information? or is there some truth to this?

Next question, when something dissolves, eg a salt (lets say KCl) usually it dissociates into the + and - ions and they swim around freely being attracted to a water molecule (or whatever your solvent is). Now when codeine phosphate dissolves into water (I assume it dissolves) does the same thing occur, it creates a codeine and a phosphate ion? or does it stay as the one molecule and become attracted to water molecules hence 'being in solution'.

Another point that was brought up by the main poster who initiated this discussion (Nightmare girl) was that if you stir the solution of crushed up codeine/paracetamol/binder pills the codeine 'loses its salt' by this I assume it means that it dissociates. She (or he) then postulated that the codeine was now codeine freebase (I thought it had to be attached to a carbonate or something insoluble for it to be a freebase) since it is now insoluble, and would be left with the precipitated paracetamol and binder slush, and it was not in your water solution, hence by stirring the solution you have effectively lost your codeine.

Last one was that they mentioned that the paracetamol could go colloidal (basically a suspension in the water) and end up in your final filtered solution, however I thought when something went colloidal it was in rather large lumps and therefore would be too large to fit through the filter. So your original mixture in the water was a 'colloidal' mixture of codeine, paracetamol and binder already and this shouldn't cause any difference, or am I incorrect is a colloidal solution halfway between something being dissolved, and say ground up chalk mixed into water?

Now this all sounds pretty unscientific to me, and although I've studied first year university chemistry I did not get taught much about solubility, so could somebody please answer what happens here in some more detail? Also if I have incorrectly used terms or appear to not understand what their meaning is, could someone take the time to get me up to speed.

As you can see this post is more about understanding chemistry rather than drugs.

Thanks

 

[Trambunox]

As far as the solubility of Codeine Phosphate in water, it is not entirely unique. There are other salts that exhibit the same odd behavior of having increased solubility under colder temperatures. The reasons as to why, I can't explain fully, but I would speculate it has to do with electrostatic attraction... and that's as far as my reasoning takes me, haha.

About the molecule itself, I think you would indeed be left with the Phosphate ionically bonded to the Codeine, since for the most part, phosphates are not soluble in water @ STP.

And for your final question, anything 'colloidal' when talking about solutions refers to a compound that is evenly dispersed 100% throughout said solution. That one, I am most certain of. Oh and when I say dispersed, I do NOT mean dissolved. Colloids are merely suspended perfectly throughout a 'medium', shall we say, not a true solution.

Sorry to be so vague, looking forward to seeing where this one goes!

 

[rolls]

refers to a compound that is evenly dispersed 100% throughout said solution. That one, I am most certain of. Oh and when I say dispersed, I do NOT mean dissolved. Colloids are merely suspended perfectly throughout a 'medium', shall we say, not a true solution.

So does that mean that it has broken up into individual molecules as is 'suspended', if this is the case with paracetamol in a cold water extraction, would this mean that it would filter through with the water?

 

[fastandbulbous]

Codeine phosphate solubility: 1 gram will dissolve in 4ml cold water (saturated soln)
Paracetamol solubility: 1 gram will dissolve in 70ml of cold water (saturated soln)
Source: Martindale's Extra Pharmacopea/Merck Index

Soooo. if yo use 20 x co-codamol, that's 10g of paracetamol & 160mg of codeine phosphate in total. Now 160mg of codeine phosp. would totally dissolve in under 1ml of cold water, but that 1ml would also only dissolve aprox 14mg of paracetamol. Obviously you use more than 1ml because of the volume of tablets; for the sake of arguement (& easy maths!), say you use 50ml. That'll dissolve all of the codeine phosp. and additionally 700mg (50 x 14mg) of paracetamol, which is a safe, non-toxic single dose. The rest of the paracetamol simply doesn't dissolve so can be removed by decanting or filtering

The colloid situation only occurs if you heat the soln or initially use hot water. This is due to the presence of starch in the tablets and starch is pretty much inactive in cold water, but once warmed (well you've seen wallpaper paste before? That's exactly the same principal), it forms a much higher viscosity colloidal soln which means filtering is out of the question and leaving to settle is going to take forever and a day


That do?

About the molecule itself, I think you would indeed be left with the Phosphate ionically bonded to the Codeine, since for the most part, phosphates are not soluble in water @ STP.

You end up with a mixture of codeine phosphate, phosphate ions and 'codeine ions' (the tertiary nitrogen is protonated to form the ion), the ratios being dependant upon the dissociation constant of codeine phosphate. As for phosphates not being soluble in water at STP: Eh? Phosphates, like sulphates aren't soluble in polar organic solvents like ethanol to any appreciable degree, but they are water soluble - even the salts from protonated nitrogen salts (amphetamine phosphate is pretty soluble and ammonium phosphate is impressively so)

 

[rolls]

Excellent thank you for your post, now that just leaves one more question unanswered, the codeine freebase, is that a load of crap or is there something in the binders/water that could cause the codeine to become insoluble?

Something else I always wondered about solubility, lets say 2g of substance x dissolves in 100ml, and 500g of substance y dissolves in 100ml. Surely if you mix them they are going to chance their solubility constants, eg less of substance x and y will both dissolve? or due to the huge disparity in solubility constants will the difference be negligible?

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ More to do with if they have a common ion in both compounds eh amphetamine sulphate & morphine sulphate. Then the extra sulphate ion from the other salt buggers with the solubility (solubility is dependant upon a whole range of things such as dissociation constants, pH and the number of ions produced (eg with disodium phosphate) and their interacting w.r.t. concentration

If you're really interested, get a physical chemistry book and read up about it (I always found the physical chem side a bit boring at times. Preferred inorganic & esp organic chem)

PS Yes the freebase bit is bollocks unless in some strange way they're on about dissossciation & the ions formed in solution (but no it will not precipitate oput without the addition of another compound to react with the codeine phosphate)

 

[Trambunox]

bulbous^^

I was referring to phosphate compounds formed with substances other than the alkali metals. Good call on the amphetamine and ammonium compounds though, forgot about that. Maybe it was my teacher but I was always under the impression that carbonates, sulfites, and phosphates were insoluble if not in IA or a special circumstance (amp. and amn.)

Then again, not too sure where codeine falls on that spectrum.

 

[rolls]

If you're really interested, get a physical chemistry book and read up about it (I always found the physical chem side a bit boring at times. Preferred inorganic & esp organic chem)

I was the same, I've got a couple of books on inorganic and organic chemistry, but not much on stuff like acid/bases, solubility etc. Might do some reading on it one day.

I have this weird obsessive nature where I need to understand how everything works, even if theres no good reason to know.

 

[Nightmare Girl]

Rolls thanks for the PM. I couldn't respond because it said I wasn't allowed. I have no further interest in this discussion. I've said my piece.

 

[UnfortunateSquid]

If you're really interested, get a physical chemistry book and read up about it (I always found the physical chem side a bit boring at times. Preferred inorganic & esp organic chem)

Seconded. Also, Atkins Physical Chemistry (my standard text at the time) is as thick as a phonebook, and as impenetrable as a nun with an AK47.

 

[rolls]

Rolls thanks for the PM. I couldn't respond because it said I wasn't allowed. I have no further interest in this discussion. I've said my piece.

Fair enough, I hope you take the time to read the thread though, some of these people have rebutted your points quite convincingly.

 

[Nightmare Girl]

Bullshit Rolls and this is Philip Crowley a trained doctor with a degree in chemistry and medicine. Juliet never wanted to get involved anyway but I will. I have read this thread and you guys are as thick as pig shit. Yes you''ll crap on about this and that but why don't you just admit you know nothing. Advanced? What a load of crap! I tell you, ask a pharmacist next time your in the chemist if codeine loses it's salt easily. They will tell you and no they won't refuse you service. Why shouldn't you know these things? So, so long and thanks for the boring conversation.

Philip.

 

[Slay]

^^ imo ppl on add have been doing a great job and most of them are very knowledgeable. i guess you need to respect their hard work putting all these together first. i see your still a noob, lurk more

 

[rolls]

^^ imo ppl on add have been doing a great job and most of them are very knowledgeable. i guess you need to respect their hard work putting all these together first. i see your still a noob, lurk more

'They' have multiple personality disorder, the girl I think actually studied chemistry, but has manifestations of a doctor and a psychiatrist, both males that are very aggressive always defending the girl. I'm not going to take it personally as I realise this would be pretty hard to manage, but at the same time I want to know the answers to the questions they raised.

Bullshit Rolls and this is Philip Crowley a trained doctor with a degree in chemistry and medicine. Juliet never wanted to get involved anyway but I will. I have read this thread and you guys are as thick as pig shit. Yes you''ll crap on about this and that but why don't you just admit you know nothing. Advanced? What a load of crap! I tell you, ask a pharmacist next time your in the chemist if codeine loses it's salt easily.

Please quote the part of the post you are challenging, and then give a detailed explanation as to why it is incorrect. You can't expect us to believe anything you say when you are always angry and never answering our questions, as you can see we are all willing to learn and would love to hear your reasons. No one will listen to you until you give sources and precise reasoning to why you are correct.

 

[Hammilton]

Bullshit Rolls and this is Philip Crowley a trained doctor with a degree in chemistry and medicine. Juliet never wanted to get involved anyway but I will. I have read this thread and you guys are as thick as pig shit. Yes you''ll crap on about this and that but why don't you just admit you know nothing. Advanced? What a load of crap! I tell you, ask a pharmacist next time your in the chemist if codeine loses it's salt easily. They will tell you and no they won't refuse you service. Why shouldn't you know these things? So, so long and thanks for the boring conversation.

Are you saying that the below is inaccurate? Flaunting credentials frequently while being entirely wrong isn't very bright. Either you're an idiot for a doctor, or you're lying about the credentials. You don't seem to have anything useful or even accurate to say. What exactly was it that attracted you to bluelight? Did you think that we were all washed up druggies who'd respect you because you kept making claims? I mean, seriously, you actually said that codeine was a small molecule compared to salt. You know sodium chloride is just NaCl, right? It's much, much smaller than codeine. Codeine freebase has a MW of 299.36, sodium chloride has a weight of 58.44. It's more than 5 times larger. I don't know how we're measuring, by weight sucrose is larger, but compared in 3D, Codeine is longer, and seems about the same width.

You end up with a mixture of codeine phosphate, phosphate ions and 'codeine ions' (the tertiary nitrogen is protonated to form the ion), the ratios being dependant upon the dissociation constant of codeine phosphate. As for phosphates not being soluble in water at STP: Eh? Phosphates, like sulphates aren't soluble in polar organic solvents like ethanol to any appreciable degree, but they are water soluble - even the salts from protonated nitrogen salts (amphetamine phosphate is pretty soluble and ammonium phosphate is impressively so)

^ More to do with if they have a common ion in both compounds eh amphetamine sulphate & morphine sulphate. Then the extra sulphate ion from the other salt buggers with the solubility (solubility is dependant upon a whole range of things such as dissociation constants, pH and the number of ions produced (eg with disodium phosphate) and their interacting w.r.t. concentration

If you're really interested, get a physical chemistry book and read up about it (I always found the physical chem side a bit boring at times. Preferred inorganic & esp organic chem)

PS Yes the freebase bit is bollocks unless in some strange way they're on about dissossciation & the ions formed in solution (but no it will not precipitate oput without the addition of another compound to react with the codeine phosphate)

edit: Just did a little more reading and found this:

Drivel. How can chemistry be peer reviewed? Chemicals do whatever they do and nothing will change that fact. It's an exact science. You can't peer review chemistry. Yes doctors really do care about what you rudely call 'junkies'. Why shouldn't they? We care about these things, ask any doctor. At least any young doctor because there really are some arseholes out there and we are showing you and them up.

Think about that before you say any more crap about things you don't know about. Peer reviewed? do you even know what that means? Nonsense, that's all any of you talk. Why don't some of you sane people post and tell us if this method works for you. It does for us. Yes doctors take drugs too. It's harmless and why do you think this is in the wrong thread? It's all about CWE isn't it? That's what this thread is about isn't it? I rest my case. Nightmare Girl has had enough of you but I will keep writing until I've proved my point about the human mind and other things. If you worry about the grammer and spelling it's because I am dictating to her. She has had enough and thinks I'm being mean. Well I need to prove a point that people don't listen. Please speak up the rest of you who do listen.

Philip

You're really arrogant and not very bright. So now there's no such thing as peer reviewed chemistry research? Do you actually know what peer reviewed means? Seriously, you've not said a single thing that has ever made sense besides distinguishing addiction and something being bad for you (I assume this refers to toxicity as addiction as a degenerative disorder is quite bad for you).

Of course your method will work, but without stiring, the solvent may not contact all surfaces, and the tiny bits of powder will likely contain APAP and codeine. They're not one-molecule sized particles, so it will take a bit to extract the best.

The idea that your CWE has been verified by doctors is interesting, but apparently entirely unfounded. If minor modifications have ever been looked at by actual scientists (not trolls who invent credentials and use them to make faulty attempts at seeming intelligent and a justification for arrogance. You have to be right to be an asshole, and you're not) it hasn't been published anywhere as far as I can tell.

 

[tobala]

Alexander Shulgin here and I just wanna say that Rolls, F&B, and Hammy are THE SHIT!

 

[tadfish]

I got question sometime lazy i pour off to layer and drink that once most sludge and shit settles at cold temps. sometiems i even freeze and cut in half thinking the most APAP that i can get in a cold solution of CWE without filtering is 1000mg per 100ml approx so as long as i don't drink too much liquid (say i use 500ml all up to dissolve tablets of 100 with 8-10mg of codeine each). forgive this on the ketamine but pazzing for year i used codeine and sometimes someone is craving and just wants some codeine now.

So u can imagine i drink a bit once the layers happen (in my junkiest codeine moment) just the top layer once its cold or after being frozen.

I have filtered a lot of time in past but some times u have no filter.

my question is how much APAP can go into cold water top layer of CWE at temps colder than room temp often nearly freezing.


well i quitting codeine i know mates and BL'ers that aint stoppping i want to save lives
i have before a few times.
i know people having 2000mg of codeine a night and some not filtering at first.

 

[rolls]

my question is how much APAP can go into cold water top layer of CWE at temps colder than room temp often nearly freezing.

Possible situation, 50x10/500 pills. 500mg codeine, 25g apap

There's no way of knowing, if you stirred the solution up then cut the top 50% of the solution then I'd say 50% of the paracetamol would be in your solution. If you left it for a week then it depends where the sludge sits and where you take the solution from, could get lucky and only get a small amount.

However I'm going to hypothesise that precipitated paracetamol will be floating around in the solution for a long time so unless you filter you will be getting a high dose of paracetamol which you should totally avoid at all costs. Filters are cheap, sunglasses bags, coffee filter coupled with tshirts, micron filters etc are all under $10 and should be used at all times.

 

[tadfish]

I got question sometime lazy i pour off to layer and drink that once most sludge and shit settles at cold temps. sometiems i even freeze and cut in half thinking the most APAP that i can get in a cold solution of CWE without filtering is 1000mg per 100ml approx so as long as i don't drink too much liquid (say i use 500ml all up to dissolve tablets of 100 with 8-10mg of codeine each). forgive this on the ketamine but pazzing for year i used codeine and sometimes someone is craving and just wants some codeine now.

So u can imagine i drink a bit once the layers happen (in my junkiest codeine moment) just the top layer once its cold or after being frozen.

I have filtered a lot of time in past but some times u have no filter.

my question is how much APAP can go into cold water top layer of CWE at temps colder than room temp often nearly freezing.


well i quitting codeine i know mates and BL'ers that aint stoppping i want to save lives
i have before a few times.
i know people having 2000mg of codeine a night and some not filtering at first.

hmmm
so as temp goes down and layers separate its safer to drink top layer
According to wikipedia the solubility in water of paracetamol is 0.1-0.5 g/100 mL at 22.

I still recon its best to get cold so it layers and dissolves then pour off top layer freeze then drink cold.
but when i first get my stuff i downing the phenergan and shit then i spend hour prep maybe down a bit before filtered or even properly layered

 

[tadfish]

Nightmare girl i trying to figure out some of ya post i am confused and i sound dumb (i snorting ketamine and drinking) and i think you are thee brain dead one. Doctor i know many. Most don't know fuck all about everything to do with one drug of abuse and believe me i doc shopped and been across australia going to clinic to clinic for addiction. Most doctors don't know shit about CWE and i recon a lot of BL codeine users know more.

IS nightmare girl talking to her self in 3rd person WTF?