The Science Behind “Nodding”

[sleeping pains]

now, we all know what nodding is – at least I assume so, considering this is Bluelight. but just to be clear, I’m talking about that mysterious phenomenon that occurs when an opiated individual inadvertently closes his/her eyes and enters a sublime (yet oddly familiar) pseudo-consciousness – when the individual is transported to a private dream-world marked by serene visions, physical bliss and an exhilarating, gratifying escape from self-awareness. even casual opiate indulgers likely know exactly what I’m talking about.

which is why I didn’t post this in OD – I’m simply not interested in opinions, anecdotes, homages and the like (it’s nothing personal, just not what I’m after). what I’m after is hard science: facts, theories, studies, calculations, findings, etc. – anything objective and/or measurable (even if it hasn’t yet been “measured", such as hypothetical theories informed by science).

so go ahead, post any known science (pseudo-science excluded) regarding the nod. a few things I personally wonder are: what happens to the body/mind when nodding? how (if at all) does nodding relate to sleep and/or REM-cycles? why does nodding only seem to occur with opiates (and can it be induced by other means)? etc., etc., etc... I have numerous questions, but ultimately I just want to hear what Bluelight's chemists, biologists, pharmacists, researchers, med students and all-around geniuses have to offer.

also, I posted this in AD for a reason; however, anyone with legitimate answers is welcome (and encouraged) to post. citations would be very helpful, but are not required.

well, I'm getting impatient; I'm pretty damn curious to learn about this subject. so, without further adieu, answer away!

 

[jamesmartin]

Good question ... I shall be keeping an eye on this thread

 

[artaxerxes]

I've spent much time wondering about this myself.

*** start personal bullshit ***

I happen to be one of those people who experience harsh nods, full of evil dreams. You know where you said "serene visions, physical bliss, an exhilarating escape from self-awareness," yeah, never experienced that. Have nodded hundreds of times. OK, gotta be real, way way back, I had few nods that were pleasant when I was first using.

I think part of this issue is that I've rarely wanted to nod. I have shit I'm trying to work on: creative blocks, mental illness that I'm try very hard to combat with CBT/meditation/more, staying healthy, etc. So maybe I don't experience a pleasant nod-state because I just really don't want to be there. Opiates for me are 50% motivation, 40% enhanced sociability (shyness in abatement which cross-pollinates with desire for more achievement) and 10% relaxation.

*** end personal bullshit ***

Nevertheless, I'm really fascinated by the science behind the nod. That episode of the "Vice Guide to Liberia" with the 12-year-old dopefiend "nupping," as they call it, brought it back to the forefront of my consciousness. BL smart people/scientists, please enlighten us.

Great thread btw. Thanks for starting it.

 

[diche]

you are talking about the neuro science & the internal models people form of nodding, yes? Ive just recently began my studies, but Im sure the answers lie here.
My own thoughts on the matter was that nodding was like a very direct passage way to a REM sleep-like state. Mainly because the content of my dreams and content of my nods are very similar. I analyze my dreams frequently & keep a journal. From a Freudian perspective what you describe of as a lack of self awareness is what you want, by taking opiates you make it so. not the neuro-chemical reactions, the mental stuff you percieve the high to be. The first nod you ever have may be great and you associate good thoughts (manefest content) with the expierence.
+ subscription

 

[artaxerxes]

Hmm, very interesting. Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I've kept a dream journal for years and, through practice, have a very developed ability to remember dreams in detail. Which is maybe why I can also remember the content of so many specific nods.

Anything more that comes to mind from your studies/experiences, please post. And please, other posters chime in. I find this topic fascinating. Keep it coming.

 

[WSB15]

As a neuroscientist in training, I've always wanted to know the neurochemical basis of nodding. But there hasn't been much research on it that I'm aware of. No funding for it...any bluelighters have access to a PET scanner and a pile of Oxycontins?

I'd agree with the hypothesis that your brain is lapsing into a dreaming/sleep state. Seems almost identical to a dream state to me...yet the brain wakes itself up after a very short period of time. You don't just fall asleep, you return back to (somewhat) full waking consciousness without any external stimuli to arouse you...and then start nodding again.

 

[tathra]

only somewhat relevant to the topic, i've fallen straight into dreaming, bypassing all the normal 'sleep' stages in between, on several occasions while totally sober. it was here that i learned that dreams actually occur in real time. (i've also had quite a few episodes of sleep paralysis, typically following ketamine binges, which gives me the inclination to think that sleep paralysis could be linked to nmda receptors somehow)

although back before i had a tolerance and i was doing a bunch of diacetyl, i never entered that 'dream' state when i nodded; as desperately as i wanted to be able to fall asleep, i'd just find myself unable to keep my eyes open, but unanble to sleep. also, oxycodone can be a bit too stimulating at times to allow a nod.

i've never had enough clues to be able to form any kind of hypothesis about the opiated dreaming state, so i've never put much thought into it. and opioids bind to too many different receptors (kappa, mu, delta, (and delta-mu recombinant receptors), and i highly suspect also to nmda, 5ht, and da), so the hardest part would probably finding a good starting point for a hypothesis, and also figuring out htf to test it.

 

[Saucy]

I have only experienced the phenomenon of nodding a few times, but I have never been disappointed by the experience, which for me has always been both physically euphoric and mentally/visually exciting. I suppose that this is because I am a psychonaught at heart, but I have come to view it in some sense as the opiate equivalent of tripping.

Although it is certainly very different than anything produced by tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics, I have actually found it to be quite similar to another psychedelic phenomenon that I am much more familiar with than actual opiate-induced nodding. In the absence of sensory input, a moderate sub-k-hole dose of ketamine (or an equivalent dose of any other dissociative) can produce a euphoric dream-like state in which one experiences scenes or episodes that can be controlled with the mind (at least to some degree in most cases) much as one would in a lucid dream. In this state, the things one sees may not be vivid or immersive enough to actually cause the user to forget that he/she is in a drug-induced state, and often the visual aspect of the "trip" may be hazy or inaccurately colored among other things.

The last time I intentionally nodded in particular (on 100mg codeine, 5mg hydromorphone, 1mg clonazepam) I experienced a sensation very similar to this. The fact that the sensation was certainly not a product of the same chemical mechanism as its dissociative-induced counterpart but had much subjective similarity leads me to believe that the experience likely results from both drugs causing brainwaves to mimic a similar stage of the sleep cycle. I am not convinced that this is necessarily an imitation of REM sleep as there are some stages of NREM sleep that induce vivid hallucinations and delirium.

Anyways I gotta go to bed myself, but just my two cents.

-Saucy

 

[Pillthrill]

hmm the idea of what is going in your brain, when you are unconscious, all nodded out, that keeps you coming back for more...
Interesting concept.

 

[tdub10]

ahhhhhhhahahhahahaa i was just nodding while reading this thread true story real life. i think its the funniest thing ever except when my friend was driving and nodding. i think xanax really does this to you because ive seen people fucking drool when they do that stuff.

 

[seep]

Are you guys aware that Wikipedia has a pretty elaborate article on this? The article does need a drug-induced hypnagogia section, and if anyone can find research such as is described by WSB15, feel free to edit it in.

I like the convert-rapid-eye-movement hypothesis, which was verified by EEG in 2008:

1. Brain Res Bull. 2008 May 15;76(1-2):85-9. Epub 2007 Dec 18.

Wakefulness-sleep transition: emerging electroencephalographic similarities with
the rapid eye movement phase.

Bódizs R, Sverteczki M, Mészáros E.

Institute of Behavioural Sciences, Semmelweis University, Nagyvárad tér 4, H-1089
Budapest, Hungary. [email protected]

The covert-rapid eye movement (REM) sleep hypothesis of dreaming suggests that
elements of REM sleep emerge during sleep onset, leading to vivid hypnagogic
imagery. We tested the physiological part of this hypothesis by analysing
scalp-recorded electroencephalograms of 15 human subjects during wake-sleep
transition and subsequent night time sleep. Wake-sleep transition was categorised
semi-automatically as alpha activity, alpha dropout and as early Stage 2 sleep.
The slow oscillation, the slow and the fast subdivisions of the delta and the
theta frequencies respectively, as well as alpha and sigma bands were analysed.
The similarity of individual-specific wake-sleep transition periods and the whole
night Stage 2 or REM sleep periods was expressed in a composite similarity
measure covering the spectral power of all analysed frequency bands and in
frequency-specific similarities related to power values in single bands. A
significant increase in composite similarity with the whole night REM sleep
emerged in the period of alpha dropout and diminished in early Stage 2 sleep. The
alpha dropout period was more similar to whole night REM sleep than to whole
night Stage 2 sleep. These region-independent effects were mirrored in
region-specific manner by frequency bands of the delta-slow theta range. Findings
are in accordance with the covert REM sleep hypothesis, with previous
electrocorticographic results and with the frequency range of the sawtooth waves
in humans.

PMID: 18395615 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The difference between regular hypnagogia and opiate-induced hypnagogia may be little more than a difference in the fragmentation of episodic memory during the phenomenon. In other words, this happens to everyone, but being on dope helps you be aware of it happening. So in essence, it is a perception phenomenon. Because of this, I've always lobbied for opiates to be studied as hallucinogens.

 

[negrogesic]

High enough doses of opioids suppress the CNS-----> nod

Opioids like heroin or morphine itself seems to cause this more than most other pure MOR agonist (like fentanyl, which can cause nodding, but its more of a delirious nod). There could be some kappa receptor involvement in the nodding process, although selective kappa agonist produce nothing resembling a nod. Perhaps the interaction of the three MOR's and kappa produce this effect. I believe opioids inhibits the release of GABA into the VTA, which in turns gets the dopaminergic neurons firings.

Who knows...

 

[DexterMeth]

^I definately wouldn't be surprised to find out that opiods inhibit GABA release. Intestesting thread guys, keep it comming.

 

[ognobognob]

eyes closed but it doesn't matter, you can still hear but only when you want to. lots of reds whites and blacks as cevs. it reminds me of being in a forest that is completely silent, with nothing else to think about but what your feeling. I love jumping up, half walking to get a cup o juice or something, and itching all the way there. then drinking that cool sugar.

 

[Hammilton]

^I definately wouldn't be surprised to find out that opiods inhibit GABA release. Intestesting thread guys, keep it comming.

you shouldn't be, it's extremely well known. By inhibiting GABA release they increase DA release.

 

[ZeroFries]

I've experienced very similiar states while being in lecture halls with very little ventilation (huge lack of oxygen)

I go in fully awake and by the end my heading is slumping down, and waking up every few minutes after entering a dream like state (with the brain seemingly "jolting" me awake). I believe the opiate nod has something to do with reduced respiration, with euphoria from the opiate itself creating the blissful "dreams". The brain jolt is your brain making sure you get enough air perhaps?

 

[DexterMeth]

^yea man, opiates cycle around constantly tricking your brain into thinking you're breathing enough. That "zap" I assume is the brain being alerted that you're not getting enough oxygen.

 

[ebola?]

subjective similarity leads me to believe that the experience likely results from both drugs causing brainwaves to mimic a similar stage of the sleep cycle.

By brainwaves, do you mean the dominant frequency as would be measured by a cranial EEG...or something more complex?

IIRC, REM sleep is dominated by beta-frequencies, which are one and the same as those of active wakefulness. Thus, brainwaves probably aren't the right place to look for an answer to this thread's question.

 

[drscience]

Are you guys aware that Wikipedia has a pretty elaborate article on this? The article does need a drug-induced hypnagogia section, and if anyone can find research such as is described by WSB15, feel free to edit it in.

I like the convert-rapid-eye-movement hypothesis, which was verified by EEG in 2008:



The difference between regular hypnagogia and opiate-induced hypnagogia may be little more than a difference in the fragmentation of episodic memory during the phenomenon. In other words, this happens to everyone, but being on dope helps you be aware of it happening. So in essence, it is a perception phenomenon. Because of this, I've always lobbied for opiates to be studied as hallucinogens.

YES I have always felt this way. The most psychedelic experience I have ever had was on hydrocodone syrup as a kid.

 

[QuasiStoned]

^^^
I dunno, though they are interesting IMO they're not really full out psychedelic in nature.

Seemed more like lucid dreaming to me IME, but it's such a subjective thing so I suppose there's really no point in arguing.