The Red Pill or The Blue Pill?

[Tarsarlan]

It's good to see some people can take things a little more seriously once in a while...
I believe that there are points in all our lives where we have a much greater desire for one pill over the other... As evol said, sometimes the red gets to be too much to handle, so we take the blue for a while, then once we're settled we go back to the red.
Taking the blue pill as a representation of escaping reality, that pill can have quite theraputic properties... There's nothing wrong with escaping from reality for a while, as long as it's only for a little while, not a permanent vacation... Much like people take holidays once in a while to escape the routines of their 9-5 work days, so can drugs be an escape from the rountine of everyday...
Problems arise when people start confusing the red pill with the blue pill (colour blind?

) If the desire to escape reality becomes too strong and drugs are used to achieve that escape then for some people reality can become no more than an annoyance... But living in the world of the blue pill, while thinking its the red pill would prolly lead to being locked up in a mental institution, or a hospital...
If we take a look at the spiritual side of things (please hold onto the rails tightly, don't wanna lose you here...

) the blue pill can be thought of as the continued existance in the world as we see it, including drug use and all other methods of escape... The red pill is the one that leads to true escape, spiritual freedom... I don't really know if there is any such thing, but I'm not closing my mind to the possibility... What if we could take that big red pill and experience another kind of reality? ...something completely different to anything we've so far experienced... Some people believe its possible, and some cultures use drugs to achieve such a transition...
All in all, I think that yes, double dropping is the way to go

------------------
All your drug are belong to us

 

[MorpheusDaq]

Rabbit hole Tune
White Rabbit-Jefferson Airplane
or
The Red Pill-Some Dude who I dont know
------------------
Cause life aint nothin but a good groove
A good mix tape to put you in the right mood

 

[VooDoo Gurl]

I think that we all have taken the blue pill and the red pill at some stage in our lives.
There are times when you want nothing more than to escape the mundane tedious 9 to 5 world that you are virtually forced to be a part of. At those times, the blue pill is the way to go. And the entire rave culture and it's wide-ranging appeal is evidence that there are heaps of people who want to escape.
On the other hand, there is an appeal to finding out about the ultimate truth or the meaning of life (yep...I know it sounds corny but who can honestly say that they've never taken drugs to experience new things or test the limits of their brain?). There are times when taking the red pill is an amazing thing cuz it can help you figure out who you are.
Now shall we discuss what kind of drug the red pill is vs. what the blue pill is?
Or is it possible that they be the same?
------------------
"Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying to tell you somebody." -- John Constantine in Sandman

 

[KompleX]

what if u dont take pills?
is there a substitute?

 

[Pleonastic]

The red pill more often than not comes as a picture on a small piece of cardboard...

But I tend to think of all pills as purple, and their true colour eventually comes out depending on set and setting.
------------------
"The love in your heart wasn't put there to stay...
Love isn't love, till you give it away."

 

[Tarsarlan]

The 'pill' doesn't have to be a drug... As Requiem for a Dream showed, there are more ways than one to fall prey to addiction, and there are more ways than just drugs to escape reality...
However, if they were to be drugs, as Pleo said it comes down to set and setting, plus the reason for escape... And 'just having fun' is one form of escape...
I don't think the red or the blue pill are any particular drug, and infact the red pill isn't a drug at all in some cases... The red pill represents reality... the blue pill represents escape from reality (the act of taking drugs in this case)
...or did I miss the meaning of you question VooDoo Gurl?...

 

[Miss Peks]

This doesn't neccesarily have to apply to drug use. This is just my opinion based on my experiences throughout my short life

Now as we all know the bluepill represents the routine lifestyle that we lead everyday, such as getting up, going to work/school, getting home, doing housework, maybe having a couple of beers or wines and having dinner etc etc etc.
The red pill represents an escape from those normal things, like for example going to parties, taking drugs, or maybe a total change of lifestyle like for example you could change the way you think, act, live. Maybe this could be done by reguarly meditating.
As most other people has said, there needs to be a healthy balance throughout these 2 things in your life. Of course sometimes some of us are going to lean towards the red pill more than the blue pill, but it's expected of us to make some mistakes. We aren't supposed to be perfect

.
As for the being happy part only you know when you're truly happy or when you're pretending to be. You just need to figure out the way you should lead your life to have the ultimate high in life

(I don't neccesarily mean drug related in this either).
It's all part of a learning experience boys and girls

 

[De Quincey]

ummm i got a bit confused about which pill is which cos some people are using different definitions than others of what each pill entails.
if the blue pill entails a retreat from knowledge about the world, if you like a wilful blindness about the way the world really is, then i know i've taken drugs to achieve that effect. you forget about the normal problems and just bliss out to it all.
does the red pill entail a deeper knowledge about the way things are, giving you a tool for exploration of unknown mental regions, which hopefully give you a deeper understanding of yourself and reality? This seems a bit like something Huxley says in "the Doors of Perception" - that the places we go and the things we discover when on drugs are no less real than the ordinary world, just because we can't always see them. I've also used drugs to attempt to find out new things, to gain a new perspective on my world... be it by broadening my relationship with my friends (love this one) or by conjuring up trippy visuals and stuff.
i guess it all sorta depends on where you draw the line between reality and drug-induced fiction, but my gut instinct is that every time i take drugs i have a desire to get a bit of red pill and a bit of blue. as huxley puts it (loosely), you need to tune out normality in order to make room for all the new/other stuff.
i'm hoping that this is a pretty normal, healthy way to go about it, and i can't see why it wouldn't be, unless it gets unbalanced and you need more and more of one aspect. i mean, everyone escapes sometimes, one way or another... most people don't use drugs. likewise, everyone seeks new knowledge, also not usually through drugs. But in my humble personal experience the right drugs can give you a fairly easy taste of both parts. the problems come when it gets too easy to escape, and people spend more time out of normality than in it. i guess that's what addiction is ramble ramble ramble....

did someone say "smurfs"?
*crunch crunch crunch*
that was probably incoherent but that's what happens when you're too lazy to proofread what you write

sorry!
DQ.
------------------
"Cabbages... knickers.... it's not got a beak!"

 

[nick-nick]

I would have taken the blue pill.
Who gives a toss if we live in a fake world. The actual world has been destroyed by nuclear war, so we can't live in it anyway. So, it is really a choice between living in a world that where we can't go outside our spaceship or living in a world wich is pretty much as it is in present-day Sydney. It is no contest in my mind.
Although, I reckon the best bet would be to take the red pill, get the super powers, and then just rob the fake world.
Nick

 

[Toumbido]

I think the red pill represents growth - of any sort. From reading 'first time' stories etc. around here it seems that ecstasy and the 'scene' in general helps people with a sense of self & community. It makes (most) people a fair bit nicer and can really help with sorting out pre-existing issues.
However, it seems that for regular users, over time the weekends take precedence over the weekdays, and living a 'normal' life just doesn't measure up to the exciting (but temporary) world of raves/clubs/drugs.
When people are just living for the weekend, I think the red pill changes to the blue pill. People become willing to sacrifice being content with their everyday lives for the bliss that comes with the weekends - and that is counterproductive. But that leads into the issues of the purpose of life and it gets all messy(er).
So I guess I'd agree that all the pills are purple... but I'm not really sure.
Oh! And another thing! While we're on the topic of The Matrix, I have a question. Neo is supposed to be 'free' by going into the real world, right? But when he gets there, he is prophecied to be 'the one', and is thus bound by fate. So did he just jump out of the pot and into the fire? I was just curious as to others' opinions on that area of the film as well, because it ceratinly does a number on me.
------------------
"Rock over London, rock on Chicago!" - Wesley Willis

 

[-Thoth]

Take the red pill, take the blue pill...
E... On my first few occasions journeys were taken. Discoveries were made. Were they truths? No, but yet the memories exist. The people were real, the thoughts were deep, the music was MAD. Sensory overload. I had taken the RED pill, and breifly drawn back the curtain to see the wizard. Something of an enlightenment.
Of course I wanted to check it out again...
More raves, more adventures into the alternate world. However, I realised that increasingly, I was making no further discoveries. I mearely was gaining pleasure in revisiting the old ones. My RED pill had turned BLUE...
I gave it a break... Now I leave the blue pill until it becomes RED one. Or is it still blue? Forgive my contradictions...
------------------
The woods are dark and deep, and you have miles to go before you sleep...

 

[melt]

i tend to agree with Tarsalan's post on escaping reality, we do that in alot of ways (ingesting chemicals one of the more popular around here?

). watching a movie, sitting at home daydreaming, maybe even sleeping (this might be pushing the definition abit)
we sometimes mistake the drug induced state for what reality is, and after the comedown, although you realise that everything was all because of the drugs, there is still the nagging thought of what if....what made you think the way you did? (am i making sense here?)
so...i'd say fuck it, take the blue pill, no...get like a truckload of them, take one each time u feel you're hitting the ground. that should sort everything out. or maybe not.
my 2 cents

------------------
Repetition is the key to success. Repetition is the key to success.

 

[randomblondeboy]

yeah quincey, and i want my copy of doors of perception back (c;
okies, as a matrix freak i thought i'd wait a while to see what people said. I think that like tars said the pill's don't have to literally be pills, its just that to us the word pill entails drugs. So if we are taking the view of how the pills change our perception then we have to first work out what the two worlds of the matrix are. Firstly there is the construct, the computer controlled world that is what we percieve as the world. Then there is the real world, run by robots with a small human population in xion. So which world do we live in? This is the first problem, because to most people the blue pill represents receeding back into a world of stupidity, unknowing of what possible experiences could be had, and the limits of us as people. The red pill will let neo stay in the real world, experience reality as it is, and while he can go back into the construct, he will always know that it is not real. In my opinion we do not clearly live in either of these worlds, either on or off drugs. In the matrix we can bend the rules if we want, we can dodge bullets (there are also strange men in black suits after us, but draw your own conclusions there), but on the surface this represents the boring mundane existence most of us have. In the realy world harsh reality exists, ugliness is not covered up, and everything is the truth.
Morpheus said to neo 'do you know why you are here? you are here because you know something, what you know you can't explain, but you feel it. you've felt it your entire life. there is something wrong with the world, you don't know what it is, but it is there, eating away like a splinter in your mind' it was this that convinced neo to take the red pill. in my opinion this was an offer not necessarily to see reality, but to escape it in a way as well. The reference made to the rabbit hole is not just a way to paint a pretty picture of the scenario, and the choices neo has, but wachowski's make an obvious pointer at escaping reality. So in effect the two worlds represented in the matrix are no better than each other. One os an ugly, bleak depressing world, where occasionally reality is not quite as it seems (if you think that the 'real world' is always real in the matrix, check out xion, to the characters, xion is the last city of the real world, but is it just another construct?) and the other world is one created by computers, who know how to please humans and make them content. So if the blue pill is going to make me happy, why do i need the red one? To see reality...But if i am stuck in this reality i will go crazy....
double drop.
------------------
going back to romford...
------------------

 

[-Thoth]

Within philosophy, there is a school of thought known as utilitarianism. I'll just skate over it, leaving out most of its complexites and meaning... So don't think what I say is neccecarily all "qualified" yeah?
Anyway, utilitarianism is about following the outcome within live that best benefits the shared happiness of the most people. Take this example:
You are driving your car down the road and round a corner. Suddenly, in front of you, there are five young childeren playing on the road. They are clearly to small to understand the dangers accociated with this. You realise that you are going too fast to stop, and you will kill them unless you swerve and mount the pavement. However, on the pavement there is a middle aged man taking a stroll.
You are faced with a choice. Hold the line and run down the kids, or swerve and kill the man thereby saving the childeren. Either way a life is taken... What do you do?
A utilitarian would swerve and sacrifice the man. 5 childeren vs 1 man. At face value saving the childeren better benefits the shared happiness of more people than the one man does... 5 families saved grief compared to 1, 5 lives spared to 1, etc...
This philosophy is very predominant in our culture (even if you have never heard of it before). Look at majoritarian democratic voting, altruism, non-descrimination laws. There are many other areas where this is theory is applied, see if you can work out others... If it seeks to benefit the most people possible, its usually utilitarian.
So if I may finally get to the point... Where does this leave the "Blue" pill? Or societies attitudes to drugs for that matter?
The "Matrix" and well raves, exist to increase the shared happiness. Is confronting reality really neccesary if you are happy? Is our society condoning a double standard? I find that this is where a good theory comes to a wall and breaks down somewhat... It seems to say that not only should you take the blue pill, you should get a lifetime subscription.
I dissagree, but I am sure others will not. It is this flashpoint causes the controversy surrounding drugs. Is it right just to take the blue pill instead of the red one.
Remember that this does not just include illegal drugs but other issues as well...
Double drop? Well maybe... Take the blue pill sometimes... But the key is making the experience on the RED pill more satisfying and enlightening.
------------------
The woods are dark and deep, and you have miles to go before you sleep...

 

[De Quincey]

Thoth, utilitarianism doesn't necessarily break down over the issue of ignorance maximising happiness, unless you oversimplify to take happiness as the highest order of good (ie hedonism).
A broader definition of utility (ie that knowledge or objective truth - and i won't even get *started* on the existence of objective truth - is of a higher order of value than happiness) lets us remain utilitarian and still take Neo's red pill. Sure, we might sacrifice some happiness, but we gain a lot more in terms of knowledge. Neo's choice of knowledge (the hard option) shows where he draws his line of utility.
I don't really see a double standard in *our* society, just differing views on what constitutes the highest order of utility. For some people, ignorance really IS bliss, and for others, they crave more and are constantly seeking new knowledge.
Personally i go through phases of both... sometimes i wanna tune out and sometimes i don't! i guess this is the same for everyone.
Someone almost started a debate on free will earlier too, but i don't think i wanna bite at that one (too hard).
DQ.
PS. RBB i'm almost finished Heaven and Hell... btw i left my small radio at your place.
------------------
"Cabbages... knickers.... it's not got a beak!"

 

[-Thoth]

De Quincey, I see your point.
However, if we agree that neo's descision to take the red pill is rooted in his desire to gain the "truth" and thereby knowlege... Is he not seeking happiness as his highest order of utility? The personal satisfaction gained from knowlege?
Throughout life, do we not all seek happiness or at least freedom from pain as our ultimate goal? Is there not satisfaction and thereby some measure of happiness in finding the "objective truth" even if the circumstances are unpleasant?
I think we are soley motivated by happiness, it is merely the differences between how we achieve this that defines us as induviduals. Some people find happiness and release through the denial of pleasure... What else can constitute the highest form of utility? Forgive my at best sketchy understanding of the philosophy...
------------------
The woods are dark and deep, and you have miles to go before you sleep...

 

[VooDoo Gurl]

Tarsalan...nope, you didn't misunderstand me.
I wasn't suggesting that the red or blue pill had to be a "drug" per se (although everyone here can probably think of a drug experience that matches with the Matrix concept of the red or blue pill). I was curious to see how people interpreted that question. Your 'drug' could be anything as many people here have suggested. Personally, I'm addicted to TimTams

Ohhhh, nothing gets the endorphins going like a package of TimTams. I hear the crinkle of the package and my palms get all sweaty with anticipation, my legs get wobbly, and my heart starts beating faster...
Seriously though, I do think that the blue pill represents knowing only about a false world...one where everything is, overall, pretty good. In the movie, this is the mundane 9 to 5 world that we are all familiar with. But in the movie, the red pill allows Neo to see the real world. And reality is a pretty nasty place in comparison to the world constructed by the computers for the sake of the people who haven't taken the red pill. Peronally, I would take the red pill. Maybe it's my training as a scientist but I want to know what is *really* out there. Hmmm, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I would turn down an occasional blue pill

By the way, have people heard that they will soon be starting to film episode 2 and 3 in Sydney? And, if anyone is interested...this site lists all of the mistakes in various movies...the Matrix included. http://movie-mistakes.com/
------------------
"Have you ever had one of those days when something just seems to be trying to tell you somebody." -- John Constantine in Sandman

 

[sunEdltye]

"Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

 

[De Quincey]

Thoth - i can also see where you're coming from, but i don't think that happiness and an absence of suffering are the same thing. Nor are freedom and happiness the same... sure, freedom can BRING happiness, or relief from suffering, but these are not the same things (if you wanna be a pedant). So far at least, Neo hasn't found much happiness that i can see... i spose i'll just have to keep watching.
But anyway... there's also the whole other argument about whether Neo is really free now that he has the whole "chosen one" destiny monkey on his back

nice....
Prometheus where are you, matrix bunny?
------------------
"Cabbages... knickers.... it's not got a beak!"

 

[nezo]

too many big words in this thread..

Nezo.
------------------
"Warning - May Contain Peanuts"