the rationality and morality of suicide

[rant*N*rave]

what's this "truely" nonsense? It's relative to the individual and cannot be compared to one another. everyone has there own degrees of torment tolerance. where one's minor setback can invariably be another's unbearable loss.

The difference between depressed and depression.

 

[vegan]

what's this "truely" nonsense? It's relative to the individual and cannot be compared to one another. everyone has there own degrees of torment tolerance

that just answers the question

if you don't get what "truely" (i know it's a subjectively chosen word, but you get the idea) suicidal mean, then you haven't been


as you say, each case is different
but one example is the difference between someone who just had something bad happening in his life and who wants to die, although it's going to get better some time
and someone who can't even necessarily understand the reason why he's suicidal but wo finds every living second a torture

have you ever had that feeling?
that every second was like being trying to breathe underwater

that every second was so unbearable that you'd rather die right now than have to wait just one hour even though knowing that after this hour all your problems would be gone and life would be perfect

have you ever felt, while in exactly the same circumstances, fine at one point, and willing to cut your throat the next hour, without having any objective way to explain the change

the objective explanation being, as far as i can tell, that you have a fucking imbalance of chemicals in your brain and that you are not just momentarily depressed, you have an illness

depression is as much an illness as cancer. it's not just a question of circumstances

some people can be happy in the worst condition while others cannot bear life although nothing seems wrong with it

No one here is dictating anyone else's life

some people are telling other that they have to keep living if they don't fit the criterion that the former have subjectively chosen

that's forcing (/wanting to force) someone to live as much as killing is forcing someone to die

now please don't dictate to those of us who feel that suicide is simply not an option outside of euthanasia.

"your" side of the argument is the one who dictates anything

i'm only replying to this side's short sighted view

what you're saying is about the same as
"let me brainwash my children so that they become [whatever]. you have no right to "dictate" [sic] me what not to tell them if i want to force them to think like me"

 

[L2R]

The difference between depressed and depression.

Point taken.

as you say, each case is different
but one example is the difference between someone who just had something bad happening in his life and who wants to die, although it's going to get better some time
and someone who can't even necessarily understand the reason why he's suicidal but wo finds every living second a torture

have you ever had that feeling?
that every second was like being trying to breathe underwater

Yes, when i was much younger. It was an everpresent state for years. I didn't do anything for the sake of my mother. I'd go through hell for her.

that every second was so unbearable that you'd rather die right now than have to wait just one hour even though knowing that after this hour all your problems would be gone and life would be perfect

have you ever felt, while in exactly the same circumstances, fine at one point, and willing to cut your throat the next hour, without having any objective way to explain the change

Yes, in the depths of my psychotic breakdowns. One time came *this* close. Had to be physically restrained from accessing the kitchen knives.

the objective explanation being, as far as i can tell, that you have a fucking imbalance of chemicals in your brain and that you are not just momentarily depressed, you have an illness

depression is as much an illness as cancer. it's not just a question of circumstances

some people can be happy in the worst condition while others cannot bear life although nothing seems wrong with it

There are ways to deal with such illnesses. I've also experienced treatments which have made shit worse and others which have had some semblance of success.

some people are telling other that they have to keep living if they don't fit the criterion that the former have subjectively chosen

that's forcing (/wanting to force) someone to live as much as killing is forcing someone to die

"your" side of the argument is the one who dictates anything

i'm only replying to this side's short sighted view

what you're saying is about the same as
"let me brainwash my children so that they become [whatever]. you have no right to "dictate" [sic] me what not to tell them if i want to force them to think like me"

Some may say such things, but that is not what I was saying. I don't think that's what Afterglow was saying either.

(imo disclaimer) tbh, i don't think that it is ethical to be so willing to embrace the option of suicide. i think that such acceptance significantly lowers one's compulsion to work their way through other options (=lower tolerence to depression). people are inherently lazy, suicide is not something to be made easy as it would then be resorted to quicker. it is not a light subject and should not be dealt with lightly.

i don't judge people who suicide harshly, so don't get me wrong. but i'm not going to ever admit to it as being an option outside of euthanasia and the highly unlikely war scenarios in rm-rf post. i think such talk only encourages it.

 

[Mr Wobble]

i don't think that it is ethical to be so willing to embrace the option of suicide.

It is perfectly reasonable that, for your own part, you wouldn't consider suicide, but it is quite another thing to say that it would be unethical for someone else to do so.

If there's one thing that makes me fairly boil with anger , it's being told that actions that concern only myself and have no effect upon anyone else are immoral!

So, here's a hypothetical situation:

Say, I have no friends, relatives or dependants and I decide that I no longer want to live. I don't have a physiologically determined terminal illness, or clinical depression; for whatever reason, I've just had enough. I have worked out a way of taking my life that will not affect anyone else (no-one will see my death, no-one will miss me, the body will never be found). Would you consider my suicide in these circumstances unethical or immoral?

If yes, please explain how you arrive at such a sanctimonious position and how in the hell you have any right to tell me how I ought to behave!

 

[vegan]

Yes, when i was much younger

then sorry; i judged too fast
but i don't understand how you can hold this view if you actually went through these phases

There are ways to deal with such illnesses

which ones?
cause there's quite a few people who would likfe to hear about them

i don't think that it is ethical to be so willing to embrace the option of suicide

ethical, good, bad, moral, etc. are not criterion that i take in consideration
they are subjective

what is ethical for you is not for and vis versa

i consider that suffering is an objective criteria

it is not a light subject and should not be dealt with lightly

there's nothing light about my view on suicide

because i am "pro-suicide" doesn't mean i take the topic lightly
it just means that this is my point of view

 

[dogfood]

because i am "pro-suicide" doesn't mean i take the topic lightly
it just means that this is my point of view

i didn't take you views to be 'pro-suicide' but 'pro-choice'. I don't think suicide is always the best option but it is (and always should be) a choice available to someone who just doesn't want to live anymore.

 

[Heuristic]

Outside of being in a situation where the future almost certainly holds little other than excruciating pain and death (the only instances I can think of here are terminal illnesses at a certain stage and capture by certain groups), no.

All other situations are amenable to solutions other than suicide which provide the individual with a point in the future at which he or she will be happy that suicide was NOT committed.

 

[Mr Wobble]

Outside of being in a situation where the future almost certainly holds little other than excruciating pain and death (the only instances I can think of here are terminal illnesses at a certain stage and capture by certain groups), no.

All other situations are amenable to solutions other than suicide which provide the individual with a point in the future at which he or she will be happy that suicide was NOT committed.

So, would you say that, outside of those specific situations and where clinical mental illness is not the catalyst, suicide is therefore immoral?

 

[dogfood]

So, would you say that, outside of those specific situations and where clinical mental illness is not the catalyst, suicide is therefore immoral?

the problem with this is one person can find a situation completely fine while another person in the exact same situation will find it unbearable. its subjective.

 

[Mr Wobble]

the problem with this is one person can find a situation completely fine while another person in the exact same situation will find it unbearable. its subjective.

I agree.

I'm strongly in favour of the individual's absolute right of self determination.

I'm strongly against condemning an individual for actions where those actions have not caused harm or suffering to anyone/thing else.

Conversely, I'm against actions that cause harm or suffering to others.

And that, in a nut shell, is pretty much the whole of The Ethics of Wobble

Do what thou wobble in so far as thine wobbling does not adversely wobble others.

 

[rant*N*rave]

Outside of being in a situation where the future almost certainly holds little other than excruciating pain and death (the only instances I can think of here are terminal illnesses at a certain stage and capture by certain groups), no.

All other situations are amenable to solutions other than suicide which provide the individual with a point in the future at which he or she will be happy that suicide was NOT committed.

I have NEVER been happy that I was unsuccessful in killing myself. I have been indifferent, but I have never once said to myself, "Wow, I'm sure glad it didn't work."

Amenable, sure. Guaranteed, hell no. And that's the whole point. What I was going through when I tried was torture. Pure, horrific torture. I would wish it on no one.

 

[L2R]

but it is quite another thing to say that it would be unethical for someone else to do so.

That's not what i am saying. What i called unethical is the encouragement of suicide (whether intentional or not).

then sorry; i judged too fast
but i don't understand how you can hold this view if you actually went through these phases

No worries.
I feel this way because of what i went through. I now stubbornly and adamantly believe in the third option. No matter how difficult things are, they are never, EVER, as black and white as they seem.

which ones?
cause there's quite a few people who would likfe to hear about them

I am no doctor, but there are various methods of therapy and a spectrum of (as an absolute last resort) medications.

ethical, good, bad, moral, etc. are not criterion that i take in consideration
they are subjective

of course, thus the blatant "imo disclaimer".

 

[rant*N*rave]

^Medication isn't a "last resort" for some of us. I'd love to be off it, but it's just not possible for me right now.

It's like telling a diabetic that insulin is a last resort. It's more than possible to survive diabetes without it, but it would be stupid to try.

 

[L2R]

well it certainly isn't the first option/solution one tries, is it?

 

[rant*N*rave]

Yeah it is. If someone shows up in a psychiatrist's office with clear symptoms of a serious psychological disorder, they don't say, "Let's try all kinds of other shit before the medication that we know works." Especially for people that self harm or have bad delusions.

Whenever I'm off my meds, I almost immediately spiral downward into a completely non-functional state. The longest I've been off them and healthy in the past 5 years is just under six months. And I paid the price for that shortly thereafter...

 

[L2R]

sorry, but i find that absolutely disgusting. signs of psychological disorder are never that clear, and medications are never surefire solutions. both vary from person to person, so jumping to the medication step on the first instance is just as likely to make things worse.

counselling, diet and excercise should be looked at before any medication is even considered, despite the greater effort to implement those steps are to simply popping a pill. such steps are also useful in more accurately diagnosing the condition itself.

 

[dogfood]

sorry, but i find that absolutely disgusting. signs of psychological disorder are never that clear, and medications are never surefire solutions. both vary from person to person, so jumping to the medication step on the first instance is just as likely to make things worse.

counselling, diet and excercise should be looked at before any medication is even considered, despite the greater effort to implement those steps are to simply popping a pill. such steps are also useful in more accurately diagnosing the condition itself.

i totally agree. pills (especially powerful ones like antipsychotics) ALWAYS have side effects. for me i've never found a medication that works and has tolerable side effects. (i have bipolar btw)

 

[Heuristic]

So, would you say that, outside of those specific situations and where clinical mental illness is not the catalyst, suicide is therefore immoral?

I'd say outside of those particular situations (extremely painful terminal illness and capture by certain groups) suicide is not a good action to take, including when it is motivated by mental illness.

the problem with this is one person can find a situation completely fine while another person in the exact same situation will find it unbearable. its subjective.

Outside of certain forms of illness, the suffering of a situation is amenable to alleviation or solution. Suicide alleviates the suffering but at the cost of everything good that might follow in the future. It is therefore harmful to an individual outside the limited circumstances I mentioned.

I agree.
I'm strongly in favour of the individual's absolute right of self determination.
I'm strongly against condemning an individual for actions where those actions have not caused harm or suffering to anyone/thing else.

I don't see the value in permitting a person to kill himself when such an action is motivated by mental illness. In fact I view it as an abdication of our responsibility to help that individual.

I have NEVER been happy that I was unsuccessful in killing myself. I have been indifferent, but I have never once said to myself, "Wow, I'm sure glad it didn't work."

That would mean that you are at present indifferent between being alive and being dead. Is that true? If you're not indifferent, and prefer being alive, then necessarily you would also be glad that you did not kill yourself.

Amenable, sure. Guaranteed, hell no. And that's the whole point. What I was going through when I tried was torture. Pure, horrific torture. I would wish it on no one.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, but certainly the probability that the suffering can be alleviated is sufficient justification not to kill yourself.

And clearly, in your case, the suffering WAS alleviated, and you've now got a full life ahead of you. That's a great thing, no?

 

[dogfood]

to heuristic: i have bipolar, does that make me mentally ill? i can't decide for myself what is good for me? what if i don't want help from you or anyone else. mainly because 'help' seems to come in the form of locking me in a hospital. being 'mentally ill' doesn't make you less of a person, and just because i wouldn't decide what you decide doesn't make my decision wrong, just different. i'm not incapable of making rational decisions without being medicated out of my face.

 

[Mr Wobble]

I'd say outside of those particular situations (extremely painful terminal illness and capture by certain groups) suicide is not a good action to take

Is it therefore immoral?

Outside of certain forms of illness, the suffering of a situation is amenable to alleviation or solution. Suicide alleviates the suffering but at the cost of everything good that might follow in the future. It is therefore harmful to an individual outside the limited circumstances I mentioned.

Is causing oneself harm immoral?

I don't see the value in permitting a person to kill himself when such an action is motivated by mental illness. In fact I view it as an abdication of our responsibility to help that individual.

So would it be moral to deny an individual their autonomy?

And, stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but, outside of the 'special situations' (terminal illness.. etc.), suicide is not a rational choice, rather it is motivated by a degree of delusion, therefore, anyone attempting suicide in such a case is mentally ill (and can be denied their autonomy)?