The possibility of a non-physical-dependent opiate/synthetic opiate? Here's why

[Ub3r]

Hello bluelighters, first time posting/making an account here, although I have been a lurker for a while and am also well-versed in the science of how drugs effect the body. This isn't basic drug discussion, but I knew no where else to put it. Anyways, here's my theory:

There may be a compound, not yet found, that may hold the potential to not cause physical withdrawals, or cause the lowest opiate withdrawal ever... Here's why I'm stating this,

Cannabis doesn't have any physical withdrawals. The only minor ailments it may cause when discontinuation after months, or years of use are: minor fatigue, sleeping problems, and low appetite (I might've missed some). These are debatable, if they are considered physical withdrawals in the medical world.

NOW, synthetic marijuana, like all of the new ones they have today (and old ones - ex. JWH series), mimic the effects of cannabis, because they all activate the cb2 recepter (i may be wrong, but I know they activate the one that gets you high, they may not activate the two that cannabis does - but they DO activate the same receptor, in different ways, thus you get different "highs" from these man-made synthetic chemicals)...

Anyways, some of these synthetic cannabinoids are actually proven to cause real physical withdrawal symptoms after long-term use, not like the minor ones you see with cannabis, which has a combination of THC/CBD.

Now, what I'm trying to say is, if a synthetic cannabis chemical (and there are many) can cause real physical withdrawal symptoms after abruptly stopping after long-term use, then why does cannabis only cause psychological, if not minor physical withdrawal symptoms after use?

Reverse tolerance? No, that can't be it, because you need more cannabis after long-term use to achieve the same results when user first started using.

So, it's obviously the individual chemical and how it effects the brain and receptors all over the body.
Etizolam works like a benzo, but is a theino-benzo (a new class of diazepines) - which has a reverse tolerance, and low level risk of dependence - aka no physical withdrawal symptoms after long-term use (i've experienced this myself with 1000mgs spread over a month) Now I know everybody's body chemistry is different, thus making all of this relative to the person...

NOW, we DO know ibogaine will stop ALL withdrawals (not keep them at bay - but literally end any other withdrawals you may have from opiates)... This is with NMDA antagonization (I may have said it wrong, but experienced bluelighters will understand)

So, in the future, wouldn't you think, as bio-chemist keep synthesizing new chemicals every day, that there may be a possibility of an opiate that does indeed kill pain, may either get the user high with high use or not; BUT either also has reverse tolerance, or the same effects as ibogaine, while also upholding the pain killing effects, while keeping withdrawal at minimum or nill after long-term use of said possible chemical?

I mean, isn't this a possibility? I don't understand how chemicals effect the brain entirely, but I got this idea and I wanted to share it with you guys, thus I made an account just to share my hypothesis.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Etizolam works like a benzo, but is a theino-benzo (a new class of diazepines) - which has a reverse tolerance, and low level risk of dependence - aka no physical withdrawal symptoms after long-term use (i've experienced this myself with 1000mgs spread over a month)

That's so not true and is terrible HR. Etizolam caused me dependance faster than traditional benzos and the withdrawal was long lasting and horrendous for such a small habit. Also, many will disagree that etizolam has reverse tolerance, in fact many people complain that tolerance to etizolam rises super fast. When I first started taking etiz 1.5mgs was able to get me really buzzed, but that rose up to 3-4mgs within a few months of not even daily dosing.

To give you an outline of this habit I took etiz at ~2-3 mgs 2-3x a week for a few months. Then I used for 1 week straight and when I quit I went through 3 months of hell. I have used traditional benzos like this in highschool and never had any issues like I have with etizolam. I also noticed that rebound anxiety from etizolam was the worst of any benzo/thieno that I've ever taken. I'm not saying this to call you out, but I sure don't want anybody getting reeled in to a nasty habit from misinformation.

BTW I'm aware that the reverse tolerance claim comes from a study, but at doses so low and for a short period of time they don't have enough data to make a statement like that, not that even they said this was fact. You never hear of etizolam addicts starting at doses like 5mgs and working down to .5mg with equal or greater effects.

 

[Ub3r]

That's so not true and is terrible HR. Etizolam caused me dependance faster than traditional benzos and the withdrawal was long lasting and horrendous for such a small habit. Also, many will disagree that etizolam has reverse tolerance, in fact many people complain that tolerance to etizolam rises super fast. When I first started taking etiz 1.5mgs was able to get me really buzzed, but that rose up to 3-4mgs within a few months of not even daily dosing.

To give you an outline of this habit I took etiz at ~2-3 mgs 2-3x a week for a few months. Then I used for 1 week straight and when I quit I went through 3 months of hell. I have used traditional benzos like this in highschool and never had any issues like I have with etizolam. I also noticed that rebound anxiety from etizolam was the worst of any benzo/thieno that I've ever taken. I'm not saying this to call you out, but I sure don't want anybody getting reeled in to a nasty habit from misinformation.

BTW I'm aware that the reverse tolerance claim comes from a study, but at doses so low and for a short period of time they don't have enough data to make a statement like that, not that even they said this was fact. You never hear of etizolam addicts starting at doses like 5mgs and working down to .5mg with equal or greater effects.

Okay, you're right. It depends on the individual, and their individual chemistry, BUT what you just said proves that drugs effect people in different ways. Heck, I didn't become dependent (even after a months use of 1000mg's). Everyone's bio-chemistry is indeed different, thus the same drug could effect the said person differently. It also shows that one drug that someone became dependent on quickly, may take longer for another person. Interesting...

I want to add that you didn't answer my first initial question, do you think, in your own opinion, that a future opiate can be dependence-free? What I have said about cannabis and synthetic cannabis holds true as well (no sources at the moment), but if that is the case, then it would probably be true... (that there is a possible dependent/tolerant-free opiate in the future). Please enlighten me with your opinion, the thread wasn't aimed towards etizolam alone, I was just trying to make connections with my hypothesis. .

 

[《Plasticity》]

Of course, were all different. Some people are more susceptible to withdrawal than others. Many are terribly addicted to etiz but there are also many that like you, can get away with alot before you get but in the ass. I just wanted to re-inforce to any readers that you may not be so lucky, so if you do decide to get in deep with etizolam don't be surprised if you get a little more than you bargained for, etizolam withdrawal was terrible for me. On the topic of your post I'll check back in tomorrow as I've gotta go to bed. Without reading your post thoroughly I would say no, at least not in the immediate future but I also haven't looked into it which is why I will tomorrow when I have time. For now, have a goodnight

 

[《Plasticity》]

Okay, back as promised .

Now, what I'm trying to say is, if a synthetic cannabis chemical (and there are many) can cause real physical withdrawal symptoms after abruptly stopping after long-term use, then why does cannabis only cause psychological, if not minor physical withdrawal symptoms after use?

I always assumed this was due to the fact that these synthetics that cause dependance are full agonists whereas cannabis is only a partial agonist. I can attest to weed withdrawal after long term heavy, daily use. Admittedly it's quite mild compared to benzo or opioid withdrawal but it exists nonetheless. It only makes sense that a full agonist would make this withdrawal far more prominent.

Look at full agonist psychedelics like NBOMe, the amount of tolerance they produce is beyond the level of what a partial agonist can do, or so they say. As someone who has used synthetics for a period of a year or two about 5 years back, I can say that within a small time frame cannabis is rendered useless, which shows just how much stronger these are than cannabis.

NOW, we DO know ibogaine will stop ALL withdrawals (not keep them at bay - but literally end any other withdrawals you may have from opiates)... This is with NMDA antagonization (I may have said it wrong, but experienced bluelighters will understand)

I do understand this, only problem is that the level of NMDA antagonism required to prevent tolerance and dependancy from developing would be poorly tolerated, making it impractical. Also, all studies done on dissociatives preventing tolerance and dependance use morphine, and according to this study below this may not carry over to all opioids as NMDA antagonism benefits weren't able to be reproduced in selective mu agonists.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395996031855

These data lead to the suggestion that the mechanisms of tolerance to receptor selective μ and δ opioids may be regulated differently from those associated with morphine. Additionally, these findings emphasize that conclusions reached with studies employing morphine cannot always be extended to ‘opiates’ in general.

Now I'm aware that Ibogaine sees no limitations in regards to what opioid your dependant on, but I'm not well versed enough to tell you exactly how it minimizes withdrawal, could be more than just NMDA antagonism, it's also a calcium channel blocker as well, but I think we're a long way from finding a "clean" opioid that produces no dependance and doesn't have a huge load to bear from an effects point.

Perhaps we can formulate an opioid with a low dose NMDA antagonist to slow the development of tolerance while still leaving the user functional, but this won't be enough to completely resolve the issue of dependance. If anyone with a greater understanding of chemistry has something to add or correct please do so.

 

[Crashing]

I had a sheet of 25i and ate pieces of it quite a lot, and i personally never noticed a tolerance. I've even used it 3 days in a row at the same dosage, despite the persistent claims suggesting the impossibility of such a phenomena.

I also think that the relationship between cannabis and synthetic cannabinoids isn't really applicable to opiates, since Buprenorphine is a partial agonist just like cannabis is, yet causes more severe withdrawal symptoms than the full agonists which are likened to the synthetic noids. So the exact opposite appears to be happening.

There are some strange drugs out there that may be of interest to thing topic, like tramadol and tapentadol. I'm not sure how the withdrawal for those substances is but i'd imagine it's much less severe than other opiates.

 

[《Plasticity》]

since Buprenorphine is a partial agonist just like cannabis is, yet causes more severe withdrawal symptoms than the full agonists which are likened to the synthetic noids. So the exact opposite appears to be happening

That's entirely subjective as most people I've known and heard of going through bupe withdrawal say that it's not as bad as heroin or oxy withdrawal, only it's longer lasting and more drawn out. Then there's also the fact that people switch from full agonists to bupe and previous withdrawal carries over.

As for NBOMe tolerance, your litterally like the first or second person who has never noticed tolerance from them, this is very well documented. People have permanently ruined "the magic" with NBOMe abuse rather quickly. I don't think you can argue that a partial agonist will cause more tolerance and a stronger dependance than a full agonist, I don't think it works like that.

 

[Crashing]

Well first off, as stated, I am well aware that i may be the only person to experience this phenomena with NBOMes. But that doesn't make it less true. And yes, my experience with buphrenorphine is subjective but certainly not unheard of, and my point is that partial agonist opiates already exist and we know that they cause a severe withdrawal. Regardless, i don't think we will be seeing any non-addictive opiates to hit the market.