The Old and Overgrown DOC thread (fixed)

[21p]

You elicited that response yourself. Don't insult my intelligence and I won't tell you its history. Did you or did you not leech your articles from other sources? Do the research yourself, IN A LAB, before you try to tell me my ham sandwich is really turkey because you read it on the internet somewhere. We're eating the damned things around here, we would know!

 

[Blowmonkey]

Pathetic.. I won't go into this anymore as you've demonstrated you're not worth my, or frankly, anyones time really. All you need is some basic knowledge of pharmacology. Maybe then you'll understand. In the meantime, please, grasp at ten other straws, I don't care for what you say anymore, it's all pretty pointless.

 

[21p]

Pathetic.. because colloquial english can put your unnecessarily complicated argument into perspective? Browbeat me again with your derivative "research" on a chemical you have zero REAL experience with.

Sounds like you might have to cut and run, champ.... try again one day when you've got some legs to stand on.

 

[Tryptamine*Dreamer]

I have also used DOI and did not notice any stimulant effects with it. If there were any stimulant effects with DOC or DOI, I did not notice it. Neither chemical made me feel any more energetic or alert than most other psychedelics would. Neither one had noticeable cardiovascular effects.

I don't doubt that some people get at least some stimulant effects from DOC. Some get stimulant effects from the 2c's. I sometimes get significant stimulant effects from HBWR seeds.

yeah, and you also seem to eat RC's daily. :D

It had been about 2 weeks since my last trip at the time of the DOC trip. And right now, it has been about 2 weeks since I have used a psychedelic.

 

[blab]

Let's get back to discussing DOC. This isn't a flame board 21p.

 

[Jamshyd]

Yes, I have taken most of those. And yes, I can comprehend your cut and paste chemistry. I graduated from UC Berkeley (and yes!), you did insult my intelligence enough to whip that little tidbit out. If I can "simply not understand" my way to a near perfect SAT and 176 LSAT, you will have to convince another person of their ineptitude- b/c I must not understand .
I was not a chemist in my undergraduate years, but I know your "superior intellect" is really just a collection of articles others have written. You "simply" cut and paste your information the way so many other moderators and brilliant idiots do. And no, my logic is pretty sound. If it is an amphetamine and has stimulating effects--- it probably is an amphetamine with amphetamine like qualities!! Sit back and watch in the next few months, big boy, as people start dosing higher amounts . Then tell me this isn't a psychedelic stimulant.....

This is nauseating... I feel embarrased for you!

 

[seuss1973]

I have also used DOI and did not notice any stimulant effects with it. If there were any stimulant effects with DOC or DOI, I did not notice it. Neither chemical made me feel any more energetic or alert than most other psychedelics would. Neither one had noticeable cardiovascular effects.

Exactly, any "stimulation" I felt was totally on par with LSD, mushrooms, etc... The only difference being length of action of the entire trip. During come up there is that old familiar "psychadelic push", during the peak, there are lots of nice visual and mental effects, and during come down, there is a restlessness, where I'm not back to baseline enough to go to sleep, but I'm quite tired, relaxed, etc... There are some minor differences between DOC, LSD, shrooms, etc... in each part of the trip, but the only major difference is the length of time spent in each part.

It definately feels like DOC is hitting the same receptors that the other psychadelics do, during no part of the trip does it feel anything like an amphetamine high.

Anyway, yes it is an amphetamine, a substituted amphetamine to be precise, so is every thing else in PIHKAL. This doesn't make it a stimulant. The term "amphetamine psychosis" is probably a somewhat poorly chosen name, "stimulant psychosis" would probably be more accurate.

 

[DexterMeth]

Sit back and watch in the next few months, big boy, as people start dosing higher amounts . Then tell me this isn't a psychedelic stimulant.....

um, i'm one of those people, and it's definately not an amphetamine..in fact, during the whole trip, all i want to do is sit there..on amps, i cant sit still.

 

[Blowmonkey]

Did you or did you not leech your articles from other sources? Do the research yourself, IN A LAB, before you try to tell me my ham sandwich is really turkey because you read it on the internet somewhere

Yes, I've gotten all of my information from credible sources, which I do most of the time. If you only believe those people that do the research themselves, then what have you learned at berkely, what do those SAT results really mean? Pretty much nothing, because you "leeched" the information out of textbooks, you did not do the the research yourself, so following your logic, you're not as smart as you claim to be!

But yeah, I feel sorry for you. It's pretty much a smack in the face when you think you're oh so smart and superior and you cannot comprehend what people explain to you. But the arrogant attitude really is a bit too much.

I'll try to keep it simple this time, hoping you'll understand. Just because something has an amphetamine in it's chemical name and has a structure similar to that of an amphetamine, it does not automatically mean that the activity; even though there are some similarities between the effects (e.g. stimulation) is going to be the same as that of regular amphetamine, meaning amphetamine, or stimulant psychosis is out of the question.

 

[djfriendly]

By the same false logic, one could say "amphetamine must make you trip since it's so close to DOC in stucture."

 

[crowbar]

2C-B is poisonous because it has bromine in it, didn't you know?

 

[21p]

The SAT is a competitive aptitude test, and has little to do with regurgitation, It tests a students ability to interpret and develop ideas!


Amphetamine will make you trip if you take too much of it.... I figured you would bust out the typical "you do the same thing" argument. Who cares if I'm as smart as I say I am, it's my career and reputation away from a computer screen that really matters. I brought it up b/c you insulted me. Why? Because I have had a REAL experience with DOC and questioned your derivative copy and paste "research"? You sound a little jealous, champ. I think you're not afraid to show everyone your ass. Did someone belittle you when you were a toddler? Is that why you sit at the computer all day dissing other people? And yes, I develop all of my own work in situations that demand creativity. I don't rely on secondary sources to tell someone else what is happeneing to them. I try to use what I have seen and felt myself to make judgements and convince others of validity in most situations. You didn't really slap me in the face, I don't stake my self esteem on what an online tool chest thinks of my intelligence. I understand every last iota of information you have ripped from others, *it's really not very complex.* you just regurgitated and summarized another person's real lab work, again, because you have no job or background in chemistry or pharmacology. I'm in law school right now, maybe I'll be lucky enough to prosecute your washed up druggy ass one day...


PS- My friend couldn't sleep until 6 am after a 12 hour ride. Sounds like it has some amphetamine properties to me, but you decide. Maybe we should change the chemical name to something other than "amphetamine" to assure them they are wrong for thinking they are on a speedy substance.

 

[bluedolphin]

"PS- My friend couldn't sleep until 6 am after a 12 hour ride."

That's really useful, considering you didn't mention when he took it... I mean, hell, I can't sleep 'till 6 am sometimes when I'm sober!

"I'm in law school right now, maybe I'll be lucky enough to prosecute your washed up druggy ass one day..."

That's nice.

 

[sabueewrvd]

^ Most of that stuff is pretty unnecessary. And who cares?


Just enjoy life doods. AND get this topic BACK to the DOC.

 

[fizzacyst]

f'ing christ. stop arguing. More bickering and OT crap = warnings and/or thread closure.

This is ridiculous.

 

[Blowmonkey]

I don't know wether to laugh or cry anymore.

Why won't you listen to what people have to say to you? All you're doing now is behaving like a little child. All you do is refute facts when you keep relying on some assumption based off personal accounts.

 

[21p]

Looks like people are talking to both of us captain, but I will say I trust what I see firsthand more than what someone rewrites. When did you conduct the experiments that led you to your conclusions?... Oh wait.... you didn't. Apparently, you haven't even dosed the stuff! Back on topic!

He took 2mg a 6pm, was overly stimulated until 6am. He had to take xanax to sleep, and feels a strong hangover even now. Considering the 12 hour duration of the drug, he recommends several days to recover from the effects of DOC. Everytime SWIM has given the RC to other people (5/5), they have reported insomnia and loss of appetite. Energy levels peaked at 4-5 hours and receded slowly from there. Some people reported higher levels of anxiety because of a "sped up and spun out" feeling early and through the middle of the trip. 4 out of 5 regarded the drug as "very heavy, not for the lightweights." 3 felt cracked out the next day. 4 out of 5 expressed interest in future consumption of the substance, but with free days instead of a full work week looming on the horizon. Every experience ended in the 12+ hour range. All dosages were at 2mg. Here is my conclusion--- be careful and don't mistake this shit for LSD. It's going to be scheduled quickly, there is no question about that, but know your sources and take any blotter you get in moderation. DOC has the potential to flip wigs and it's an AMPHETAMINE----don't croke and end up on Dateline b/c your dealer sold you "Super Acid." I got angry with blowhard b/c he was negating the stimulant effect of DOC.... IT SPED UP EVERYONE I KNOW WHO TOOK IT, DON'T BE MISLED INTO THINKING IT WON'T HAVE THE SAME EFFECT ON YOU!!!!

 

[Morninggloryseed]

how true to the amphetamine family does it stay?...my logic is pretty sound. If it is an amphetamine and has stimulating effects--- it probably is an amphetamine with amphetamine like qualities!!

Ok, what exactly do you consider the 'amphetamine' family, and what is the 'amphetamine effect'?

(R,S) Alpha-MethylPHenEThylAMINE (simple amphetamine) is a stimulant. However AMF, fenfluramine, LSD, morphine, and thousands of other compounds have the same alpha-methylphenethylamine backbone in their structure. Few of them are simple stimulants.

So since (by your logic) all of these things are amphetamines, what effects do the amphetamine family have? Since LSD has methamphetamine in its structure, is tripping on it just like tweaking on some glass?

Fact of the matter is, only a tiny percentage of the "amphetamine" family have the same DA/NE activity of dexedrine, methedrine, etc. Once you start attaching other atoms and groups to the alpha-methylphenethylamine structure, it becomes a new drug and is no longer amphetamine. Some (like phentramine, methylphenyldate, benzphetamine) retain their simple stimulant nature. Most however don't.

That a chemical which has an amphetamine backbone in its structure is going to exibit the same DA/NE activity of dexedrine, methedrine, etc is flawed, and just downright wrong.

If DOC is an 'amphetamine' then LSD and morphine are also amphetamines. All of these chemicals have the amphetamine backbone in their structure. But if you don't feel comfortable calling LSD and morphine amphetamines, then it is only reasonable to accept that DOC is actually a 4-substituted-2,5-dimethoxylated amphetamine....with pharmacological properties quite distinct from dexedrine and methedrine. Dexedrine, LSD, DOC, and even morphine can cause stimulation in one who uses them. But only dexedrine is capable of causing 'amphetamine' psychosis and other toxic effects associated with extreme stimulant abuse.

 

[fizzacyst]

I don't think anyone was saying that DOC was incapable of providing a wakeful stimulation, just that it does not act on the brain in the same way as the garden variety amphetamine(s).

It took me quite some time to be able to sleep after the major part of the trip was over (12 hours or so). However, I don't think it was anything like amphetamine, methamphetamine, or any of their close relatives. The length of time I was left awake (awake with no choice about it) was very similar the amount of time I was forced to stay up after large doses of AMT. I find AMT way more stimulating and energetic, with a stimulant effect far closer to that of amphetamine than DOC was. Its not even a phenethylamine, let alone an amphetamine specifically.

Many psychedelic drugs have a stimulant effect. If you find DOC stimulating, that does not neccesarily mean it is because it shares some physical characteristics with known stimulants. There are psychedelics with cyanide structures on them. It doesn't mean you're going to get cyanide effects from them, even though the structural similarity is there.

Did you thoroughly explain to your friends what it was that they were taking? Stimulant or not, it is a powerful hallucinogen. If you are tripping out and in a very impressionable state of mind, and someone drills into your head that you are on an amphetamine... don't you think you'd be more inclined to feel a stimulant effect? Placebo is a powerful thing. Look at some of the first reports in this thread where people were taking DOC-sized doses of 2C-I if you need proof of that. Or go give some 14-years olds a bunch of re-labeled non-alchoholic beer and watch them get all loud and irritating.

A couple of reports here, my experience, and those of people I've talked to found it kind of sedating, in a way. Others noticed varying levels of stimulation, some noticed nothing outside of what they'd get on any other psychedelic compound.

I obviously have no idea what you experience whenever you take a given drug, but I don't think you are in a position to say definitively that DOC provides an amphetamine effect unless you have observed live brain tissue on both substances, and this type of research is not typical of a law school student.

I really don't see the point in getting so angry about it. Without unbiased scientific studies into the drug, nobody can do anything except report subjective experieces and make conjecture. It doesn't matter how many people you know that have tried it, and even if it did, 5 people isn't exactly the largest sample size... and correlation does not imply causation. And unless you've had your material analyzed, you cannot be certain that it is DOC, or how pure it is.


All I'm saying, is that this is not something everyone can debate a little bit and make a conclusive statement about. It doesn't work that way. So if everyone could just let it go, that would be sweet.

...unless someone is in possesion of peer-reviewed research on the subject. In which case, by all means, ramble at length about it.

 

[seuss1973]

When did you conduct the experiments that led you to your conclusions?... Oh wait.... you didn't. Apparently, you haven't even dosed the stuff! Back on topic!

That may be so, but there are people on here who have taken this, who agree with Blowmonkey. Back up a couple of threads, and you'll see posts by Blue Dolphin, Dexter Meth, Tryptamine*Dreamer and myself that state the same opinions.

Anyway, I think the main point here is that; no, it shouldn't cause "Amphetamine Psychosis"; this is because it works mostly on different receptors in the brain. Does that, or the fact that people have taken large amounts without incident mean that this is a safe substance? No, not at all, for all anyone knows this stuff could be melting holes in your brain every time you take it. It could be completely safe on a thousand people, and then one person could take a light dose and die. It could turn into poison in your stomach when combined with one of the chemicals in Swiss Cheese. But hell, people die from Aspirin and other OTC "safe meds" all the time. Hopefully anyone who takes this substance knows the risks before doing so.