The Old and Overgrown DOC thread (fixed)

[Blowmonkey]

A safe dosagel at 4X the recommended level seems to indicate a low toxicity of DOC

No it doesn't.. Toxicity has NOTHING to do with the physical side effects you experience during a trip.

Would other negative effects such as addiction and amphetamine psychosis be a factor with continued use of this RC

Continued use of psychedelics ALWAYS can make people behave differently, it's not an amphetamine so an amphetamine psychosis is out of the question, neither is addiction a huge problem, considering people don't often feel the need to continuously trip on psychedelics. Ofcourse, you have exceptions, there will be people who trip too much on it, but the substance can't really be called "addicting"..

 

[DexterMeth]

^About toxicity having nothing to do with physical side effects..couldn't extreme violent nausia be a possible sign? or no?

 

[21p]

I don't see how toxicity can be completely separate from ill side effects. They almost always accompany one another. I know when I've taken too much of anything, b/c I can FEEL the toxic effects of excess drug intake- such as cocaine or ecstasy. If i drink too much i puke. The same happens if I smoke too much tobacco. These are good indicators of toxicity, IMHO. (To the author- I didn't catch the part about you puking violently, that changes plenty.) And yes, DOC is an amphetamine. I'll post a rehash so you don't have to go digging.... the chemical name is-2,5-DIMETHOXY-4-CHLOROAMPHETAMINE. Now, will someone who knows a little bit (or alot!) more than this fellow please send a reply that isn't just an attempt to deconstruct my sentences to make me look silly?

 

[Morninggloryseed]

DOC is an amphetamine

DOC does indeed have amphetamine in its structure (as well as name) but so does LSD, morphine, and many other drugs. DOC is a substituted amphetamine, and has psychological and psysiological effects that are quite different from the simple amphetamine. DOC is not going to produce amphetamine (the stimulant) psychosis.

 

[Jamshyd]

Yep, here we go for the third time... *sigh*

I just noticed a comment a while back about it being unbelievable that DOC is relaxing because it is an Amphetamine.

While I have not tried DOC, I did not find TMA2 to have any resemblence to Amphetamine or Methamphetamine whatsoever. Sure, it may be stimulating, but I find DPT, LSD and even 2C-D more stimulating.

Also take MDMA as an example (I dont consider this weird shit a psychedelic). Its a methylated amphetamine, but it feels absolutely nothing like meth/amphetamine.

 

[nuke]

^About toxicity having nothing to do with physical side effects..couldn't extreme violent nausia be a possible sign? or no?

Mescaline sure seems safe enough... DOB has killed people at lowish doses (25-35mg estimated).

 

[21p]

I disagree. Most reports of DOC use mention the amphetamine-like after effects of the drug extending hours past any visual activity. MDMA DEFINITELY has some amphetamine characteristics; Increased blood pressure, dehydration, manic behavior, increased sensitivity to music- too many to name. People pass off meth bombs as X for a reason!! The chemical itself is similar to meth- just look at the name. There is no way around this, folks. DOC has the properties of a stimulant AND a hallucinogen! The question is- how true to the amphetamine family does it stay? Let's get some people that have actually TAKEN the RC to answer this question, as opposed to an armchair psuedo=scientist's speculation.

 

[Blowmonkey]

Toxicity or neurotoxicity, means that cells will be destroyed. Just because you feel nauseous does not mean you are experiencing toxic effects, it just means you've had too much of something but does not ultimately translate back into direct damage, which you are implying, which is nonsense.

"Oh shit, I've taken some 5-MEO-AMT and my bowels kill me, this must be toxic!"

And just because DOC has an amphetamine in it's name does not mean it has the same receptor activity as an amphetamine, it hits up largely the same receptors as any other serotonergic hallucinogen, maybe some more DA/NE activity but that's probably on par with LSD (no amphetamine). So just because you feel some stimulation accompanied with DOC, does not mean it's going to be an amphetamine and will cause amphetamine psychosis, that assumption is not right.

I just clicked on the link on the previous page and when I read the thread I stumbled upon another example:

Fenfluramine - 1-(3-trifluoromethylphenyl)-2-(N-ethylamino)propane - is an amphetamine (it can also be called m-trifluroro-N-ethylamphetamine) and it produces sedative effects in most people at clinical doses, so the amphetamine skeleton is no guarentee of CNS stimulant activity. Serotonogic amphetamines are a lot less likely to produce CNS stimulation than the simple derivatives (which are mainly dopaminergic/noradrenergic). Just remember alpha-methylfentanyl has an amphetamine structure incorporated into the molecule; now that's anything but stimulating.

And if the subjective accounts and experiences of people are going to mean more to you than all of these replies you're getting now, then you might feel more at home at the shroomery, no offense to anyone that likes to go to the shroomery.

 

[21p]

Fuck it. it makes no real sense to say something is toxic if and onlu if it kills cells. The definition of toxicity or even the word toxic is quite open to interpretation, and has many meanings besides a narrowly focused scientific phrase. But oh well... Do you really even know the answer to this question? Talking to my friend who is on it right now--- it has amphetamine like qualities. So you're saying "Even though the chemical is an amphetamine, and has amphetamine like effects, it's not an amphetamine." It is more similar to LSD than amphetamine, BUT IT"S STILL AN AMPHETAMINE!!! We're not talking about the chemical you cut and pasted in the bar below. We're talking about DOC. You're right, you may not be able to go nuts from taking this shit all the time (something tells me you're wrong here. too), but you're knowledge of this chemical ends past that statement. If you OD'ed and flipped pile on this shit, what would they call it? DOC psychosis.... no, they'd probably call it some sort of amphetamine psychosis (because it's an amphetamine). Attempting to contradict what I am witnessing first hand makes you sound even more overconfident and clueless.... So, have a taste of this shite and chill on the "i'm so much smarter than you" tip, partna.

 

[DexterMeth]

! The question is- how true to the amphetamine family does it stay? Let's get some people that have actually TAKEN the RC to answer this question, as opposed to an armchair psuedo=scientist's speculation.

I agree with blowmonkey. Dude, i used to tweak all the time, and still take some weaker pharms now, dextroamphet...and DOC is NOT an amphetamine. The only single characteristic of that is similar to an amphetamine is how long it can make you stay up...but you actually feel very tired and drained, and NOT manic...it's way different.

There's an ingredient in shampoo called Benzophenone-4. Does that mean there are benzodiazepines in my shampoo?

 

[Tryptamine*Dreamer]

I noticed no stimulating effects from DOC. After it started wearing off, it did take a long time to get back to baseline but the lingering effects toward the end of the trip were just typical psychedelic effects.

I did not notice any elevation in my heart rate or blood pressure. The only side effects were slight nausea during the come up and a slight headache later in the trip. This was with 5mg of DOC, followed by 2mg of DOC and 18mg plugged 2c-c after the first 5mg of DOC began to wear off.

 

[DexterMeth]

yeah, and you also seem to eat RC's daily. :D

 

[bluedolphin]

I felt only very minor and smooth stimulation during the peak of the trip (at 2mg and 4mg and 2+2+2mg). I actually found I could sleep during the comedown and that the psychedelic effects lasted longer than the stimulant effects.

 

[Jamshyd]

Fuck it. it makes no real sense to say something is toxic if and onlu if it kills cells. The definition of toxicity or even the word toxic is quite open to interpretation, and has many meanings besides a narrowly focused scientific phrase. But oh well... Do you really even know the answer to this question? Talking to my friend who is on it right now--- it has amphetamine like qualities. So you're saying "Even though the chemical is an amphetamine, and has amphetamine like effects, it's not an amphetamine." It is more similar to LSD than amphetamine, BUT IT"S STILL AN AMPHETAMINE!!! We're not talking about the chemical you cut and pasted in the bar below. We're talking about DOC. You're right, you may not be able to go nuts from taking this shit all the time (something tells me you're wrong here. too), but you're knowledge of this chemical ends past that statement. If you OD'ed and flipped pile on this shit, what would they call it? DOC psychosis.... no, they'd probably call it some sort of amphetamine psychosis (because it's an amphetamine). Attempting to contradict what I am witnessing first hand makes you sound even more overconfident and clueless.... So, have a taste of this shite and chill on the "i'm so much smarter than you" tip, partna.

Sure, perhaps chemically it is amphetamine, and maybe you and your friend think it feels like an amphetamine, but pharmacologically, DOC is primarily serotonergic, while plain meth/amphetamine are primarily Noradrenergic/dopaminergic. Although there may be some overlap, the way they work in the brain is totally different. The same goes to MDMA - although it does have affinity for Dopamine, it is mainly serotonergic.

 

[Ghettotastic_bong]

Personally, i don't understand how anyone can try and claim that DOC *isn't* amphetamine like. Sure, theoretically it's possible for a drug with an amphetamine -based structure to not provide stimulation, as in the case of AMF, but given that the direct analogs of DOC (DOB, DOI, etc), are directly known for their overtly stimulating psychedelic nature, in addition to my own personal experiences with this drug (Including trachicardia), I believe this drug does have some affinity for noradrenaline/dopamine receptors, even if any discussion on the subject is entirely based on theory.

Furthermore, i have additional information to add on the topic. I've experimented with using DOC rectally, and have had pleasant results. There is a mild increase in intensity over oral use, and the timeline of the drug is reduced as expected (I'd estimate the comeup to be around 2-2.5 hours compared to the four of oral use, and the peak lasts aproximently 7-8 hours, compared to the 10-12 of the oral route. I'm curious if anyone else has tried this form of administration, and would be intrested in hearing from anyone who does.

 

[Blowmonkey]

So you're saying "Even though the chemical is an amphetamine, and has amphetamine like effects, it's not an amphetamine." It is more similar to LSD than amphetamine, BUT IT"S STILL AN AMPHETAMINE!!!

I'm saying that DOC has amphetamine in it's chemical name, just because it's structure is similar to that of an amphetamine does not mean it is going to have the same activity amphetamine is going to have. Is it that hard to understand?

You're right, you may not be able to go nuts from taking this shit all the time

I did not say anything like that. I said that amphetamine psychosis is out of the question. Wether you can go nuts or not is IMO due to genetics, a pre-disposition to mental ilnesses. And going "nuts" is not the same as having a bad trip. I also said that continued use of any psychedelic CAN make you behave differently, but not in the same vein as amphetamine psychosis.

Personally, i don't understand how anyone can try and claim that DOC *isn't* amphetamine like.

Who said that?

I believe this drug does have some affinity for noradrenaline/dopamine receptors, even if any discussion on the subject is entirely based on theory.

Gee, I might have said something similar.. LSD also has DA/NE activity.. Probably about on par with many other DO-X substances, including DOC. But is that on par with ampethamines? Is the mode of action similar to amphetamines? No. It is entirely different. DOC's main targets are the 5HT2A, B and C receptors. You're never going to have the same DA/NE activity which you do with amphetamine.

Now, will someone who knows a little bit (or alot!) more than this fellow please send a reply that isn't just an attempt to deconstruct my sentences to make me look silly?

I'm not trying to make you look silly, you do a good enough job yourself.. But what is it that you want to hear? Seems to me like you don't listen to what others have to say anyways, so why bother asking questions?

 

[21p]

To be fair- Some haven't experienced the speedy sensations I've had and seen others have on this stuff, but people react differently to amphetamines. I totally oppose arm-chair chemists who overanalyze the effects of a chemical they have no real experience with. You may be the best article digger around, but it will still lead to misinformation on the potential consequences of these drugs. Take the stuff before you tell everyone what it's like!!! Nothing replaces experimentation! My friend was clenching his fists, eyes wide open- throughout the trip tonight. It would be funny to watch you try to convince him he wasn't sped up.....His words- "Real fucking intense, mannnn!!"

In response to the shampoo valium comment....

"There's an ingredient in shampoo called Benzophenone-4. Does that mean there are benzodiazepines in my shampoo?"

Yes, if diazepine came after benzo.... this is different, not really applicable here ace. You're talking about the difference between an active chemical and the prefix associated with it. (Daayuumnn, you were easy 'pickins! And I'm an average joe) If you read the people disagreeing with me, most admit some stimulation.... sooooooooo...... If it barks like a dog, it probably still has a bite in it... Just don't be so blind as to put your (self=righteous) intellect above common sense. Last time I checked, amphetamines will kill you, no matter what the prefix or root word.


The whole point of the statement was to thank the fellow who took a little more than almost *everyone* has ingested for his contribution. It really sheds light on the possible limits of consumption that should be reinforced to everyone who wants to develop an understanding of this chemical. We need pioneers to give us experiences of every kind, including the- "don't take this much" variety. Mental barriers are important when dealing with potentially dangerous chemicals. Reading a FIRST HAND account will sometimes scare a haphazard psychonaut out of a hospital visit later in the evening.

 

[Blowmonkey]

Have you ever taken DPT, or LSD for that matter..? Those aren't amphetamines, yet they do cause intense stimulation for some. Following the logic you use, they must be amphetamines, as they provide stimulation.

The fact of the matter is, you simply do not understand what I'm saying, but you deny every bit of it. How can you do this when you can't even comprehend what I'm saying; as you've clearly demonstrated..?

I think I'm out of this conversation, because frankly, I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself..

 

[21p]

Yes, I have taken most of those. And yes, I can comprehend your cut and paste chemistry. I graduated from UC Berkeley (and yes!), you did insult my intelligence enough to whip that little tidbit out. If I can "simply not understand" my way to a near perfect SAT and 176 LSAT, you will have to convince another person of their ineptitude- b/c I must not understand .
I was not a chemist in my undergraduate years, but I know your "superior intellect" is really just a collection of articles others have written. You "simply" cut and paste your information the way so many other moderators and brilliant idiots do. And no, my logic is pretty sound. If it is an amphetamine and has stimulating effects--- it probably is an amphetamine with amphetamine like qualities!! Sit back and watch in the next few months, big boy, as people start dosing higher amounts . Then tell me this isn't a psychedelic stimulant.....

 

[Blowmonkey]

I did not claim anything like that. Way to twist and turn things the way you want it to be. Please stop bragging about yourself and please stop accusing me of simply copying and pasting (and oh, it's not chemistry, we're mostly talking pharmacology). You're just being a nuisance now.