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The official No Limit Texas Hold 'Em thread

>>4500 in the pot, with three players in and the dealer and blinds to act.
>>

at this point you need to isolate or take down the pot. I'm all in

>>To Mehm: 2000 into a 2800 pot isn't a c-bet. And, what'd you do, check the flop, or was he in the SB? Can you post the whole hand w/stack sizes, tourney standings and pay structure?>>

I unfortunatley don't have the whole hand, but he was EP and bet 2000 before I acted. Also, he was 6000 vs my 6000 (we were tied for chip leader). the pay stucture was top 4 people in evenesque pay out (I should know this) wee@!

thanks for the input

next time i'm shoving this ish
 
Thanks for the thoughts. I've analysed the hand and come to the conclusion that the guy with QQ played it wrong ;). OK, so did I - I should have shoved. But when I didn't, he should have, to get heads-up against me. By neither of us shoving, we actually priced the other guy in to chase a set (good implied odds, because if he hit and bet, it was unlikely either of us would fold).

Anyhoo. Just got done with a 500-person $5 buy-in and came 5th for $120. Some good poker, some mistakes:

Re-raised with 99, he had JJ.
Called an all-in from an aggressive player with 33, he had 66.
Ridiculous plays, my only defence being that it was near the end of the game and everyone had very low stacks relative to the blinds.

That took me from 1st out of 17 to 12th of 12. Then the comeback. With only 3100 chips and blinds of 1800/3600, I fought back to 100K chips - fluked a win with 75 against AK, then stole 2 sets of blinds, then got AA on the 3rd hand, jammed, got two callers and held up.

Card dead for ages. Got a completely lucky win when I raised about half my stack with J9 from the SB (no limpers). BB flat-called. Missed flop completely but bet anyway and he folded.
Then lost almost all my money with AK against 77. Came back again with 3 quick wins, but lost it all with 88 against A9.

Reasonably happy :). I made 3 or 4 bad plays though, and I was still a bit passive (see previous discussion) in the blinds. Really need to get courage to just jam the pot with nothing and be prepared to walk away if I lose....
 
alasdairm said:
li'm beginning to think the only approach is all-in pre-flop, hope you get one or maybe two calls from somebody else with a poorer pair or high cards and hope it holds up.
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All-in pre-flop w/10k+ stacks and 150/300 blinds might be excessive. I was thinking that Jest's reraise was a little small, but it's close. A lot of times in this type of situation I look at the other folks' stacks and try to reraise enough to totally pot-commit them on the flop. But that's tough with these huge stacks in relation to the blinds. Still, with 4500 or so already in the pot, that's not a bad haul already. (Another consideration is that you'll have position for the hand, making it more playable 3-handed post-flop - but I'm not in love with that idea). If QQ wants to play for stacks you're thrilled. If he sets up, so be it. But that 33 guy hopefully doesn't want to put his life on the line hoping to flop a set against 2 others.

However - you kinda wouldn't mind some action. That's the balancing act. Still, I'm leaning towards the HUGE reraise. Actually though, shit - 4200 is almost 1/2 your stack, so maybe a push isn't bad here
[edit - forgot that you had others to act after you. push for sure]

Post-flop, it's almost impossible to fold, even with the "red flags." And pot odds say you have to call. Even if you were against a set of Jacks and a set of 3's (of course, impossible to know...) you're nearly getting the right odds to hit a set on the turn or river. A very good online tourney player who goes by the name Shaundeeb once said something to the effect of "If never folding an overpair is a leak, it's a small one."
 
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Mehm said:
>>To Mehm: 2000 into a 2800 pot isn't a c-bet. And, what'd you do, check the flop, or was he in the SB?

I unfortunatley don't have the whole hand, but he was EP and bet 2000 before I acted.
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You had said you were in the Big Blind. On the flop, only the Small Blind acts before you then. So if he opened for 2k on the flop he must've been SB.
Also, he was 6000 vs my 6000 (we were tied for chip leader). the pay stucture was top 4 people in evenesque pay out (I should know this) wee@!

thanks for the input

next time i'm shoving this
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With pretty even stacks, I think he folds to a shove pre-flop. Maybe he calls w/AK, obviously he calls w/AA or KK. Still, another famous tournament quote, this time from Amir Vahedi, is "In order to live, you must be willing to die."
 
yeah, he must have been in SB.

thanks for the advice. and awesome quotes
 
Yippee Skippy said:
All-in pre-flop w/10k+ stacks and 150/300 blinds might be excessive.
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almost certainly.

i doubt i'd make that play live but perhaps online as, then, i'm guaranteed a call from at least two people with marginal hands.

:)

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
i doubt i'd make that play live but perhaps online as, then, i'm guaranteed a call from at least two people with marginal hands.

:)

alasdair
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God bless 'em!
 
Yippee Skippy said:
Post-flop, it's almost impossible to fold, even with the "red flags." And pot odds say you have to call. Even if you were against a set of Jacks and a set of 3's (of course, impossible to know...) you're nearly getting the right odds to hit a set on the turn or river. A very good online tourney player who goes by the name Shaundeeb once said something to the effect of "If never folding an overpair is a leak, it's a small one."
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Plus, I could easily put big-stack on KK or something - he'd surely have shoved there with that hand (J32 board, remember).

The other argument in favour of calling post-flop: if I fold, I have 6K chips (less than half average) and I'm probably in 200th place or so. If I win, I've got about 30K chips, and I'm in the top 20 or better, setting me up for a decent payout. Does that make sense? Calling when you think you may have the worst of it, because a win will move you so far up the leaderboard?
 
i know what you mean here. i call it "playing to win" as opposed to the (rather more common) "playing to not lose".

i used to think that guys like helmuth were just dicks when they said things like "i'm not playing for second place" or "anything less than first place everytime is a disappointment".

now, i understand exactly where they're coming from.

"In order to live, you must be willing to die." nails it.

alasdair
 
will someone please kick me in the head until i stop chasing draws on the bubble. ffs
 
Mehm said:
will someone please kick me in the head until i stop chasing draws on the bubble. ffs
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Don't chase draws on the bubble - JAM them, especially if you have redraws, like overcards too, ya know? Other people on the bubble don't want to go out before the money either, right?
 
^ agreed. obviously, all the usual variables are at work but, when close to the bubble, you can really take advantage of people who are playing to not lose.

alasdair
 
^ mantra #4: if you wouldn't play them unsuited, don't play them suited.

(usual caveats about position, prevailing conditions, stack size, etc. apply)

alasdair
 
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Will someone kick me in the head until I stop playing big hands weakly? See previous example, also: raise in mid with JJ. Two callers (one in BB). Flop is Q73. BB checks, I bet half my stack (which is now less than the pot). LP folds. BB thinks for a while then raises me all-in. I figure I'm probably beat (though a mid pair is a possibility, and he might have thought I was c-betting with nothing). But I'm getting around 3 or 4 to 1 to call, and if I fold I'm down to about 10-12BB. So I call.

He's got 43s, giving him a pair of 3s. Naturally, he hits a three on the turn and I'm out. He said he figured I was bluffing. I should have pushed, huh?

(No need for advice, like the others I know what I did wrong :)).
 
if he thought you were bluffing off half your chips, he's even more likely to think you're bluffing i fyou move them all in :)

never forget that there are some hands you are just not going to win no matter how (well or badly) you play them.

when are you moving? you should make a stop here (it's on the way, right?) so we can play :)

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
^ agreed. obviously, all the usual variables are at work but, when close to the bubble, you can really take advantage of people who are playing to not lose.

alasdair
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in harrington on holdem volume 2 he goes over this mathematically. His premise is that in live tournys, where the prize structure is very top heavy, playing to win is the best strategy because simply placing in the money is not a big deal. Online tourney's (especially sit and gos) are different because the prize structure is much flatter, IE 20% - 30% - 50%

If you even get to the money, you are probably doubling your investment...and first place isn't making that much more than 2nd and 3rd. So in these circumstances, tight play is "correct". I would rather play tight and double up my money than risk nothing for 4x my money..just how I play....and it is mathmatically "correct".
 
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