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The NFL is a freaking joke.

one last thing: I would love to see him raped in the Lounge. it would really do wonders for his personality if they broke him down a little bit. oh yeah, you can also tell them that he told me that he used to write for ESPN, and to look him up. do with that info as you will ;)
 
[keep it on topic, next time a delicious warning - AXL]
 
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Vick is still heading towards MVP.

What the man did was atrocious I agree, but he has been nothing but humble and appologetic since he did his time. Perhaps he should carry the shame for the rest of his life but reality is he is playing like a man reborn (not that he played too badly before). He will no doubt be crucified for the rest of his career but at least the NFL teaches you that a man can be forgiven, if not be allowed to make millions of dollars after a few years of picking up the soap.
 
Ok, so to elaborate even further on my original P&S post. How many of us here have been heroin addicts, cocaine users, or smoked imported dirt weed?

If you have done these things on a regular basis, then people most likely had to die so you could get your fix. You essentially are feeding a market that requires the shedding of human blood to operate, due to its illegality. How about those Nike's that you wear, that come from the cruelty of child labor and worker abuse in other countries. People are oppressed and die in these factories for your own amusement or excess. All of us have some blood on our hands from these activities.

I do not think someone deserves injury or death from betting on a dog fight, or cock fight, or watching a bull get tortured to death, or eating meat. Do you know what the difference is between us and people like Vick? We don't arrange it. We may contribute to the process, but our murder is indirect, and often out of our hands. We contribute to it but we often have no choice, and even more often we do not know any better.

Michael Vick arranged the dog fighting. He actively raised the dogs to fight, he put into motion something that could have been avoided. And to top that off, after the cruelty of the fight was over, he would kill the dog in some of the cruelest ways imaginable. He is a serial killer, and it would not surprise me if he would have been a psychopathic killer in the eyes of everyone without his NFL success. None of us set events like this into motion. He did. While most of us eat chicken, how many of you could cut off the beaks of thousands of chickens on a daily basis, and keep them locked in tiny cages with about 40 other chickens? How many of you could skin a pig alive before you kill it? How many of you could raise a dog that loves you, and will do anything for you, and send it to its death for your own amusement?

It takes a cruel, sick minded, irredeemable soul to be the one who sets these events into motion. We are not talking about a single incidence of assault, born from anger or a need for revenge, which I as well as many others here are guilty of. We are talking about the cold, calculated serial killing of sentient beings, beings who value life every bit as much as we do, who put their trust into a man who they loved, and who killed them for amusement and profit (like he needed any more money). I don't see how anybody gets a second chance for that, and I am generally a very forgiving person.
 
3 said:
Ok, so to elaborate even further on my original P&S post. How many of us here have been heroin addicts, cocaine users, or smoked imported dirt weed?

If you have done these things on a regular basis, then people most likely had to die so you could get your fix. You essentially are feeding a market that requires the shedding of human blood to operate, due to its illegality. How about those Nike's that you wear, that come from the cruelty of child labor and worker abuse in other countries. People are oppressed and die in these factories for your own amusement or excess. All of us have some blood on our hands from these activities.

I do not think someone deserves injury or death from betting on a dog fight, or cock fight, or watching a bull get tortured to death, or eating meat. Do you know what the difference is between us and people like Vick? We don't arrange it. We may contribute to the process, but our murder is indirect, and often out of our hands. We contribute to it but we often have no choice, and even more often we do not know any better.

Michael Vick arranged the dog fighting. He actively raised the dogs to fight, he put into motion something that could have been avoided. And to top that off, after the cruelty of the fight was over, he would kill the dog in some of the cruelest ways imaginable. He is a serial killer, and it would not surprise me if he would have been a psychopathic killer in the eyes of everyone without his NFL success. None of us set events like this into motion. He did. While most of us eat chicken, how many of you could cut off the beaks of thousands of chickens on a daily basis, and keep them locked in tiny cages with about 40 other chickens? How many of you could skin a pig alive before you kill it? How many of you could raise a dog that loves you, and will do anything for you, and send it to its death for your own amusement?

It takes a cruel, sick minded, irredeemable soul to be the one who sets these events into motion. We are not talking about a single incidence of assault, born from anger or a need for revenge, which I as well as many others here are guilty of. We are talking about the cold, calculated serial killing of sentient beings, beings who value life every bit as much as we do, who put their trust into a man who they loved, and who killed them for amusement and profit (like he needed any more money). I don't see how anybody gets a second chance for that, and I am generally a very forgiving person.
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you're rationalizing. "all man is guilty of the good he did not do."

and a lot of citations needed as well

+ cultural relativism

We don't arrange it. We may contribute to the process, but our murder is indirect, and often out of our hands.
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perfect example of ur rationalizing.
 
I'm hopefully going to leave this topic alone after this post, but this is MY take on the Vick thing...

I find it ironic that most of the people who say Vick should burn in hell for what he did, he doesn't deserve a second chance, etc. wouldn't hesitate to ask for a second chance in the event they make a mistake which would severely undermine the value of their character. People seem quick to judge because they can't put themselves in his shoes... nor would most people ever WANT to (obviously and understandably), but the simple fact of the matter is... while arranging dog fighting is worlds worse than most of the things any of us will ever do, plenty of these "no second chance for Vick!" people aren't concerned about common every day threats to human life like driving drunk. I'm not saying that's everyone and I'm certainly not saying that's anyone specifically, but that's just a general example.

My point is... god forbid anyone who says "Vick doesn't deserve a second chance" ever gets put in a position to have to say "people CAN change" while trying to defend themselves or the value of their own character. Because if one day, they've had a few too many drinks and hop in a car which they lose control of and take the life of another human being... they'll be begging for forgiveness from those who'll say "you have no room to speak."

Mistakes don't always happen in one day, and they aren't always forgiven in one either. I truly believe Michael Vick is remorseful for his participation in dog fighting and I certainly believe he's taking the correct steps to righteousness (in my eyes) and for that... I have no qualms with supporting him.
 
Because if one day, they've had a few too many drinks and hop in a car which they lose control of and take the life of another human being... they'll be begging for forgiveness from those who'll say "you have no room to speak."
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But the difference, which I still can't understand why people don't get this, is that Vick had a pre-meditated plan to murder the dogs. Someone driving drunk doesn't get in the car with a plan to kill someone else. That is a pretty huge difference imo. It's the exact same reason I don't forgive people who rape and murder. I don't think murderers ever deserve a second chance.
 
I "get" it... I just don't agree that that makes one more acceptable than the other. You premeditate drinking... you premeditate driving... just because you don't premeditate wrecking and killing someone doesn't make you less responsible for the death of that person.
 
I don't believe people deserve a second chance for rape.

But I do believe people deserve a second chance for murder, depending on the circumstances.

I certainly do not believe people deserve a second chance for mass murder. Idi Al Min (sp?) never deserved a second chance. Ed Gein never deserved a second chance. Michael Vick does not deserve a second chance, he is a mass murderer.

I believe in a lot of second chances, but not in this case.

Once again, Plaxico Burress is still in jail for using poor judgment with his handgun. He probably didn't even know that his license wasn't valid outside the state of Florida, and he needed to take a weapons safety class or something because goddamn what he did was dumb. Even still, his intentions were only to defend himself, and his big mistake was putting the weapon down his pants like a moron instead of using a holster. Society deems him more of the threat than Vick. That is fucked up.

Another interesting topic is Roethlisberger. The NFL found him guilty even though no charges were filed, just because the DA said he felt he was guilty. Who knows what really happened, but I know DA's can be overzealous, especially when it comes to high profile cases that they really want to be on. If he actually raped someone he does not deserve a second chance. But we have no way of truly knowing.

Fucking A. Got interrupted. I'll finish up later.
 
I watch the NFL to escape from the travesty that is the real world and all of its machinations. I don't give one shit about any sort of NFL controversy at all. I only want to watch epic games between great teams, any game in particular of the teams whose colors I like, and then some awsome highlight clips from around the league to catch all the rest.
I also like talking on forums about the NFL to further escape from aformentioned travesty.
 
Regarding Michael Vick, there are a few points that need to be made. First, Michael Vick was from a very bad neighborhood, and got hyped to an insane degree as he entered into his college and NFL career. The transition from poor, project kid to multi-millionaire celebrity happened over a very short period. Growing up in the surroundings he did, he was certain to pick up some aspects of the culture he was living in. Even though he avoided drug addiction or serious gang trouble, little traits of the culture that surrounded him undoubtedly worked their way into the identity of Michael Vick.

I am establishing the identity of Michael Vick because it is important to understand that dogfighting is seen differently by many in the poor, black communities. It is a cultural thing, as Axl said, similar to cockfighting, etc. The average American would not be nearly as outraged if Michael Vick was fighting some roosters. I think that everyone that is so unforgiving to Michael Vick needs to understand that what he was doing was not an act of hatred towards animals or anything evil like that... It seems most likely that it was simply his way of maintaining his childhood identity and culture once he was handed millions of dollars and made into a celebrity.

This lack of understanding is what the issue seems to be with most people. ("How could you hurt the poor dogs?") It makes a lot more sense if you understand that dogs occupy different positions in different cultures. In mainstream America, dogs are loved and treated nearly like family members in many cases. In other cultures, dogs serve as hunters, eaten, or are shunned as dirty animals. In certain not-so mainstream cultures in the USA, dogs are used as fighting dogs, either as protection or for fighting other dogs.

I'm about as big of a dog lover as you can be; I've bred dogs, assisted them in labor, and raised many of them. I despise the dogfighting culture, but I have seen enough of it to understand that people aren't necessarily bad people for being involved in it. Like many cultural traditions, people tend to follow suit without really contemplating their actions.




...Regarding Michael Vick's reinstatement: I think this is one of the best things that could have happened to the NFL, honestly. Quite possibly, future NFLers that are currently living in the projects can learn from the mistakes of Michael Vick and maybe not go quite as wild once they get handed millions of dollars and celebrity status. Maybe they will solidify their identities in more acceptable ways. The fact that the identity struggle is going to happen though is pretty much guaranteed IMO if you take a poor kid from the projects and hype him like Michael Vick was.
 
I'm not really comparing Vick to Hitler. But I kind of am and I feel a little guilty for it. Bear with me and understand that I simply cannot think of another comparison at the moment, so Hitler and the Holocaust will have to do. I know they are not nearly the same in scale, but... fuck it, enough apologizing, you get my point already. Vick's atrocities do not compare to Hitler's.

On to the point. That "culturally acceptable" shit is bullshit. In WWII Germany, Jews were dehumanized and murdered. The people doing the massacring felt that there was nothing wrong with this, that they were doing the right thing. Or that they were just following orders. Either way, people died because they could not see past what was "culturally acceptable" in order to figure out for themselves what was morally right.

Vick massacred dogs. Fuck his culture, fuck the way he was brought up, fuck every excuse you can make around him that would lead you to believe he thought this was OK. He knew it was wrong, and not wrong from an "oh shit, I might get caught selling a pound of weed for my friends, and throw away all of my success" kind of way, but for killing things are sentient in nature. That loved and trusted him. Cruelly.

As I said, if Vick were caught in the middle of a dog fighting ring, betting on somebody else game, I wouldn't give a shit. But he purposely set up a place for dogs to be murdered by the hundreds. And he drowned and electrocuted them when they lost! That goes way beyond borderline sociopathic behavior. That is psychopathy.

Have you ever seen a sentient being die violently before your eyes? Not a lizard or an ant, but a dog or a cat or a person. Do you know that look? That fear that is in the individuals eyes, that wide eyed stare, the anxiety of what is to come numbing out the excruciating pain? And have you seen that look just go blank. Where one second there was such intensity, it turns to nothingness. It's like looking at a pair of jewels. It is horrifying. How you could look at that once, especially if it is by your own doing and the being (person or animal) is innocent, and repeat the process 100 or more times is beyond me. It is insanity. Gain some experience with violent death, and then tell me how you feel about this.

A life is a life. No creature deserves to die for pure amusement. As I said before, we are all consumers in the market of death, but most of us couldn't bare to be the one to do it. It takes a special kind of somebody to kill sentient beings, and that is a somebody you do not want to know.
 
"On to the point. That "culturally acceptable" shit is bullshit. In WWII Germany, Jews were dehumanized and murdered. The people doing the massacring felt that there was nothing wrong with this, that they were doing the right thing. Or that they were just following orders. Either way, people died because they could not see past what was "culturally acceptable" in order to figure out for themselves what was morally right. "

How is it "bullshit"? Studies have been done on the effect. It is real. Humans are easily manipulated.

"Vick massacred dogs. Fuck his culture, fuck the way he was brought up, fuck every excuse you can make around him that would lead you to believe he thought this was OK."

Fuck your culture, fuck the way you were brought up, fuck every excuse you can make that would lead you to believe this was not OK.

What's the difference? Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got 'em.

Okay, we get your point of view. Sounds like you're going to be as rigid as possible with it. But I ask you: who are you to judge? Who are you to decide right and wrong?
 
KamMoye said:
"On to the point. That "culturally acceptable" shit is bullshit. In WWII Germany, Jews were dehumanized and murdered. The people doing the massacring felt that there was nothing wrong with this, that they were doing the right thing. Or that they were just following orders. Either way, people died because they could not see past what was "culturally acceptable" in order to figure out for themselves what was morally right. "

How is it "bullshit"? Studies have been done on the effect. It is real. Humans are easily manipulated.

"Vick massacred dogs. Fuck his culture, fuck the way he was brought up, fuck every excuse you can make around him that would lead you to believe he thought this was OK."

Fuck your culture, fuck the way you were brought up, fuck every excuse you can make that would lead you to believe this was not OK.

What's the difference? Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got 'em.

Okay, we get your point of view. Sounds like you're going to be as rigid as possible with it. But I ask you: who are you to judge? Who are you to decide right and wrong?
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I am somebody who has never murdered a living being for amusement. That gives me the right to judge murderers.

And yeah, fuck my culture. I'll tell you what, I was raised in a culture where stealing and usury are the proper things to do, where lying to make a profit is the norm. And I don't do it. I overcame that cultural barrier.

Am I perfect? Fuck no. I've stolen for drugs. I've hurt people. I've done reckless things that could have put lives in danger. I'm a bad person and probably always will be. I'm affable, I try to be friendly, and I try to do good, but sometimes I do things that others might find irredeemable.

On the other hand, I have never killed for amusement. I have actively protected animals from being shot or killed for fun, because I know that it is wrong. We all have our right to judgment, almost all of us feel that murder for amusement is wrong (hopefully). I reserve my right to judge anybody however the fuck I feel I want to, and I don't need to take a philosophy class to determine where my moral compass points to. I know right from wrong, I know the limits of just how bad I can be, and when I cross those lines I know I've done wrong and can admit it to myself.

Vick doesn't even understand what he has done wrong. He acts like he got an assault charge, or pulled a Pac Man Jones, or sold drugs at the stake of his reputation. But he committed mass murder. And that, to me, is unforgivable.

But hey, I see the world and morality as I see it. If you think that the mass murder of 100 dogs is not even equivalent to the murder of one person, then you have that right. I have the right to try and change your perception of the matter, but you have the right to believe what you want to believe. And I won't judge you or hate you for it. Morality is highly relative. I just want to let people know how horrible the things he did actually are.

I don't know if it is just the way you type, Kam, but you always come off as a little hostile. Is it just your style, or are you actually mad at me (and some others in different discussions) or is it just the way you write? I don't mean any offense by this (unless you are actually pissed off ;) ), I just want to be clear where you are coming from.

I don't hold any judgment against you or Axl or others who disagree with me. My only judgment is with Vick, who I feel should be in jail for life.

Sorry for the rambling, I am high as shit right now, so my posts might not be 100% cogent.

But one of the most important questions I have asked, is have you ever seen a sentient being of relative intelligence to know the difference between life and death die (hence dog or cat or person). Not dying while asleep. Dying while awake. By a gunshot, or getting run over by a car, maybe even a heart attack. If you have, maybe you have a better idea where I am coming from when I say that it is impossible to do this twice, to bear it twice, if you have ever experienced it. Being able to do it over 100 times, face to face, is unfathomable to me.
 
3 said:
I am somebody who has never murdered a living being
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LOL, I doubt that.

for amusement.
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Does the universe discern between motive? An action is an action.

That gives me the right to judge murderers.
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I'm a bad person and probably always will be.
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On the other hand, I have never killed for amusement.
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For one, you need to prove that it was for "amusement." That's akin to saying the United States murders cows for "amusement." Two, you need to establish how that is any different for murdering for, say, food.

because I know that it is wrong.
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You seem to know so much! What's the point of life? Did you know the world used to be considered flat?

I reserve my right to judge anybody however the fuck I feel I want to, and I don't need to take a philosophy class to determine where my moral compass points to.
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And you get what you give! It's great how that works =)
 
that is the last off-topic post that I can tolerate. sorry, fellas. don't want to delete any posts, but this is just getting out of hand

it's great to have a philosophical discussion, but we have to keep the topic to at least SOME semblance to the thread at hand. you know I am perhaps the most lenient mod when dealing with these issues, so try not to be too pissed

go to P&S
 
Fair enough. I was high as shit for that last post (and it was probably my weakest), but we need to start a Vick thread for real. Obviously people like me a smotpoker will never get over this, and I am interested in your opinions (Axl) and the opinions of others like KamMoye (although he is usually just trying to break down my posts for not being 100% philosophically sound. Sorry I wasn't a philosophy major dude, it still gives me a right to form a sound opinion on certain ethical situations, and I would really like to see you construct something instead of deconstructing everything you disagree with).

Anyways, if somebody doesn't already get around to it I'll create one in the morning, to keep all of these NFL threads from going off topic. Right now I am high and exhausted.
 
I say you should go on and create the Vick thread. you've got just an informative opinion on philosophy and Michael Vick as the rest of us. no apologies necessary, I would just rather see this discussion go where it belongs
 
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