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The next big thing, or is it NOW - Going GREEN

lostNfound

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
13,675
For a lot of people, Al GORE and his most 'Inconvenient Truth' lifted many lids and opened more eyes.
Whatever you think of the guy, he got people talking on Global Warming.

How many of you have gone green or are going green?

Do you bother to pay the extra few dollars on a travel pass or a festival ticket to offset your carbon emissions?

Do you do this because it makes you feel better, or because other people are doing it?
Do you try and 'go green' in other ways?

I know more and more people using less water, installing solar panels and all sorts of things.

Are these things enough or are too far behind as a nation.

Hack did a segment on Triple J the other day on E-Waste some of you would have heard it.
It was mentioned that Taiwan recycle around 90% or so of their E-Waste where we have no real policies in place for this and at the moment are only recycling about 4% of this stuff.

For those who don't know E-Waste is self explanatory, mobile phones, computers etc.


What are you doing as an individual to counteract our lack of policy on this?
Do you subscribe to the idea of a carbon emission tax on certain things?
For some it seems a fad but I think we're pretty far behind in some of these things as a nation.
 
IMHO, most carbon emission programs are a farce. There is currently no legislation covering that area of business and as such a lot of providers are taking their sweet arse time getting the trees planted. They simply pay a second company to 'take care of' their carbon credits and this company can take as long as they want - in many cases decades - to plant the trees that people have paid for. There is a huge waiting list of trees that need to be planted and these companies just don't have the land to plant them on. So they end up planting a minuscule amount then having to wait how ever many decades to plant the next lot. All the while the poor consumer is feeling their guilt disappear when in fact nothing has changed.
Your 'green' Virgin flight may actually take 30 years to take effect. Kind of defeats the purpose, really. :\

Regarding E-waste [what a buzz word] I know for a fact there are mobile phone recycling collection centres at every Telstra store - and I assume they would be at some other telco' stores as well.

Personally I only ever recycle my computer parts and or mobile phones when they've completely bit the dust and are no use to me at all. To me that's the true notion of going green - you hold onto everything until it can't serve you anymore, then you recycle it. It's no use buying a new gadget or thing every year just because something better came out and recycling the old one just to feel good. You've still contributed to the manufacturing process of that new thing, and they usually aren't environmentally friendly at all. Most of the water and electricity used in the world is due to massive factories - and that's where most things are made.
I would recommend anyone interested in this topic watch Annie Leonard's Story of Stuff. It's shorter than the Inconvenient Truth and is a lot more direct and could even be useful to teach kids with. I highly recommend it to give you a greater understanding of consumerism and how it's crippling our world.

Also, I would recommend anyone serious about going green look at Freecycle groups in your local area. This is a series of local email based groups which allow you to post 'Wanted' ads for items you require. If a member has the item and no longer needs it they will contact you with the details so you can reuse the item and put it to use. Also, if you have items that are not required anymore and are taking up space you can post an 'Offer' ad letting people know it's available for pick up on your front lawn, etc.

And yes, before anyone mentions it I am aware of the irony since i started the 'Cool shit I want' thread. :p:|
 
Is it a fad? Well yeah, but as they say "From little things big things grow". It is fantastic that people as a whole are more conscious of the effects their lifestyles have on the environment, even if they are still rushing to buy V6's and plasma TV's.

As for the ETS, I personally believe that it's a load of shit. Lets face it, they are not debating the effects on the planet, more how to lessen the effects on some powerful business's. Being able to "pay to pollute" is all fine and dandy if the costs are worn by the polluters, but instead they plan to justify passing costs onto consumers. There is no reward for going green if you own a coal fuelled power plant. It's not like it wasn't obvious from the day they turned it on that they were spewing toxins into the atmosphere, it's just that now people are seeing how it affects them not just the surrounding towns.

I see the money spent on the First Owners grant as a wasted opportunity. It only drives the prices of houses up by $14000 or $21000. I see much more value if they used this money to subsidise (and in the case of a new home completely pay for) solar electricity panels that feed into the grid, solar hot water heating and rainwater tanks. Especially here in Queensland most houses actually generate an excess of electricity by doing this. Will this mean we can turn off all the power stations? No, general consumers are but a blip of the total energy consumption, yet we are all made to feel terrible for running our air conditioners and watching plasma screens. :\

I can't stand here like a hypocrite and wave the green flag. Unfortunately in my line of work I produce metric tonnes of medical waste every year. Society just has to lump this if they want to remain happy and pain free. At home however I do try and keep my waste down by recycling, composting, rarely using plastic bags and try hard to avoid plastic packaging. I have a 5000L rainwater tank that I use to grow my own vegetables and when I eventually tear down my 100 year old house to rebuild I will hopefully design a place that will be almost 100% sustainable. However I'm lucky that I can afford to do this.
 
I'm a psychotic nazi in the bin rooms in my apartment building and I can often be found leaning into a bin fishing out a plastic bottle and transferring to the plastic bin.

Other than that, I don't drive and catch public transport instead. Other than that its just those little personal energy consumption things.

But who knows if those tasks actually do anything. I have been to a recycling plant and watched the waste go through the various cycles so I am somewhat happy with recycling

Busty's post above is so true of everyone in my opinion, there is always going to be a trade off between comfortable, enjoyable living and negative emissions - you can't have one without the other. As a case in point there is only one person who could truly say they where completely devoted to eradicating government and big business commercial interest and that is Ted Kaczynski

You can avoid palm oil and recycle mobile phone components to stop the destruction of either oran-gutan's or mountain gorillas all you want but its not going to work without global sanction - they just keep producing the stuff!

Finally, ETS is a good scheme that lost focus in the tail end thanks to the endless tango between big business and the government. After exceeding a set limit a commercial entity needs to pay for each unit above that limit within respective bands however there is no legislation in place to stop that commercial entity from passing that expense on through an equal or greater adjustment to the price of their goods or services. Price adjustments may effect the sales of some businesses but if you come across a company that produces and sells products that carry a perfectly inelastic degree of demand then nothing will stop them from continualy polluting - they know the end consumer will continue to demand and buy at any price.

Lastly, Al Gore... yeah great hype guy but it's hard to take environmental rhetoric seriously when it's coming from the same person who exploited a loop hole in WTO legislation and re-introduced large scale netting in of the continental shelf of several countries in the late 1990's
 
I work in the environmental industry but I'm not particularly green at home besides putting shit in the right bins. Doesn't seem much point to me. There's not much impact one can make on a personal level by using solar flashlights instead of house power because the power plant is still going to continue spewing carbon into the atmosphere, emissions traps or not.

Until the world stops using coal and petrol we're rooted. That will never happen as long as companies and money are involved, not until there's none left in the ground. By then it's too late. If we stopped putting any carbon in the atmosphere right now temperatures will still rise for the next 50 years.

There's enough different types of renewable energy now that we could end our reliance on fossil fuels. After a while it'd even turn a dollar for the jerk offs who already have everything.

It's going to be an exciting century people; third world population explosion, weather all fucked to hell, ecosystem collapse. Thank you capitalism.

If you really want to go green kill a CEO today.

In the pre-phd words of Greg Graffin:

It's a matter of prescience -no, not the science fiction kind
Its all about ignorance, and greed, and miracles for the blind
The media parading, disjointed politics
Founded on petrochemical plunder, and we're its hostages
If you stand to reason you're in the game
The rules might be elusive but our pieces are the same
And you know if one goes down we all go down as well
The balance is precarious as anyone can tell
This world's going to hell

Don't allow this mythologic hopeful monster to exact its price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and think someone else will make it right

You might not think it matters now but what if you are wrong
You might not think there's any wisdom in a fucked up punk rock song
But the way it is cannot persist for long
A brutal sun is rising on our sick horizon

It's in the way we live our lives
Exactly like the double edge of a cold familiar knife
And supremacy weighs heavy on the day
Its never really what you own but what you threw away
And how much did you pay?

In your dreams you saw a steady state a bounty for eternity
Silent screams
But now the wisdom that sustains us is in full retreat
Watch out!
Don't allow this mythologic hopeful monster isn't worth the risk
Kyoto now!
We cant have vision for the future if it cant be fixed
Alien
We need a fresh and new religion to run our lives
Hand in hand
The arid torpor of inaction will be our demise
 
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i'm inclined to agree with lostpunk... there is very little we can do. i just try to keep my personal environment as green and pleasant as it's possible to do; without the *genuine* backing of major corporations (and not this self-serving *image* environmentalism) the ecosystem is screwed anyway.
and at the end of the day, we can all take some comfort from the words of George Carlin: the planet is FINE. it's the PEOPLE who are fucked :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
 
If everyone thought like LP we'd be screwed in so many ways it's not even funny. Making small changes can make a difference. Yeah, it's not a huge difference but guess what lots and lots of small changes can make? A heck of a lot of change.

And that's all it takes - small, miniscule changes. Education. A little effort. If it becomes the norm' to write an email to your local freecycle group when you have something you don't need or if you're in need of something then the world wouldn't be producing so much crap and we'd all be a little better off for it.

Sometimes you need to look at the smaller picture as well as the bigger one. :)
 
^ don't get me wrong, i do my best in every way to minimise my impact. i drive only when absolutely necessary, i recycle most things and compost everything else, to the point that the amount of landfill-destined rubbish my household throws away is less than one bin bag a week. it sickens me that people don't do this; i get angry when people boil too much water, i walk around my house turning things off at the socket, i never put the central heating on, i just wear a hoodie...
i'm just feeling a little pessimistic today i suppose... i don't see co-operation happening on a global scale, when the capitalism and 'democracy' we've been sending people to die for for the last hundred odd years is a system inherently based on competition. i suppose the most accurate way of putting this is that i don't place myself on either side of the 'we can do it/it's never going to happen' divide, i just try to see both sides. which one i agree with depends on my mood i suppose ;)
 
To be honest I try not to think about all of those people who aren't helping to lessen the load on our planet. Those members of our communities who don't even recycle and always use the free plastic bags that are handed out at every shopping facility.

What I do think about is other ways I can act and how I can influence my friends and relatives to follow in my footsteps. I always try to act within my sphere of control. I find that can be a far more rewarding experience than constantly worrying about that which we can't control. :)
 
I've always had a big green streak at heart however have to be cynical at times. For example, I read yesterday that some bright chemical engineers over at UQ (Dr Zhu?) had suceeded in tests to make fuel cells that produce energy from coal in a way that's twice as efficient as current methods and allows all of the produced carbon dioxide to be caputred. The article claimed they're now looking at up to a decade trying to get corporate or government sponsorship before said fuel cells could be mass-produced & distributed :(
 
Oh that is so sad and yet so typical. I wish our government would move a bit faster in general, but more so for environmental technologies. I for one would like to still have a relatively well cared for planet when I'm an old lady. :(
 
The collective of miniscule actions is really all we can do unless you're about to go and form a mass action group and boycott who and what ever is acting against the best interest of the environment.

But I'd rather see and hear of people doing this rather than nothing at all and I follow that example. It's just like earth hour, it as an action isn't going to illicit a radical reduction in emissions, but it does send a message and it's a catalyst for people to think about consumption.

LP, whilst negative and downbeat in his assessment, is largely correct when it comes to real change. We need legislation on a global level and I mean REAL legislation. Not the bullshit we have now where a polluting entity is fined for exceeding limits and the just pass that expense on to end consumers. Then what good is something like Kyoto when the WTO can exploit and over ride those restrictions anyway.

The legislation needs to be global too. A bulk of the global population live in countries where environmental type of behaviour either isn't promoted or would impare that populations ability to survive.

I was in Egypt, Lybia, Jordan, Oman etc earlier this year and Australia looks like the most environmentaly concious country in the world when you look at the amount of emissions produced on a daily basis in those countries.

The river Nile for example used to be the life blood of Africa, the upside down river, now it is so polluted that you risk serious health problems just getting that water on your skin. In Cairo alone the corrupt Mubarak government which has ruled for 28 years refuses to collect rubbish for its citizens unless they pay large amounts of tax. The vast majority of the city earns approx. $100 US per month and hence do not qualify for the amount taxation required. So the majority of the cities population leaves their rubbish to pile up on the streets or they transport it to government owned land or the monuments where they know it will be collected.

In 2007 the government got sick of the rubbish piling up so they decided to pick up all of the rubbish and dumped it straight into the nile where most poor farmers access irrigation water for their crops and drinking water for their families. They did this to send a message to Cairo's population not to do this again.

Now, thats just one city in one country.
 
One of my company's products covers Climate Change Awareness and the girl who wrote it told me that the carbon released by the trucks taking cans from collection points all over Australia to the recycling plant in SA is significantly more than what is saved by recycling them.
 
If everyone thought like LP we'd be screwed in so many ways it's not even funny. Making small changes can make a difference. Yeah, it's not a huge difference but guess what lots and lots of small changes can make? A heck of a lot of change.

And that's all it takes - small, miniscule changes. Education. A little effort. If it becomes the norm' to write an email to your local freecycle group when you have something you don't need or if you're in need of something then the world wouldn't be producing so much crap and we'd all be a little better off for it.

Sometimes you need to look at the smaller picture as well as the bigger one. :)

Did I say I'm out polluting? I'm in this industry because I care. I also read a lot. And all the empirical evidence says we're fucked. That's not negativity, that's cold hard reality. You know what happens when you preach and whine at your friends and family? They start ignoring you. Trail through bluelight looking at the posts from my younger self and read the responses I've got. People who care care, people who don't don't. There's small concessions either way, but mostly people don't change.

Buying all the handcrafted (probably by poor people) carbon neutral wood grained laptops in the world isn't going to change a thing, they'll just look pretty in your house.

It is heartening to see the huge change of public opinion that has come about in the last few decades. Before the 70s environmentalism didn't exist full stop, and certainly wasn't represented in law. Hey, Howard and Bush are even finally fucking gone. But change on a population size scale is a slow, slow process. All I'm saying is we don't have that much time. Harsh legislation and penalties for those who transgress against us all are needed now. This rapid change doesn't come about on a democratic scale. Especially when even people like Obama are answerable to the corporate financiers of their campaigns.

Make yourself as carbon neutral as possible, it's a good positive thing. Do your part, I'm not debating that. Just don't hide your head in the clouds and think that the Earth is saved because of it. Until technologies, that are possible now if we were to throw money at them directly proportionate to how serious they are, are implemented on a global scale, we're still headed for ecological doom.
 
I presume the people saying "one person can't really make a difference" don't vote in elections then?
 
I'm not saying one person can't make a difference at all. I'm saying one person isn't going to solve the problem. Strict legislation, politicians reading the IPCC report and realising what needs to be done pronto is what's going to save the planet. Plants and animals are already being displaced by global warming. People in Africa are already feeling the sting as are we here in Australia. Do you think this warm winter is natural?

The whole La Nina, El Nino cycle is already out of shift. Not forgetting to turn your lights off when you leave the house is not going to solve the problem. It will help (especially if everyone does it), but your children and theirs will still be living in a vastly different world unless drastic change takes place.
 
Not forgetting to turn your lights off when you leave the house is not going to solve the problem. It will help (especially if everyone does it), but your children and theirs will still be living in a vastly different world unless drastic change takes place.
You're speaking my language now B. :)

I think at times I just assume you're as hard-assed as your language suggests but then you go and prove me wrong. Keep doing it, I like that look on you.
 
I type my thoughts a lot more vehemently than I express them in conversation :)

If you would like some vindication, enjoy:

How psychology can help the planet stay cool

* 19 August 2009 by Peter Aldhous
* New Scientist Magazine issue 2722.


"I'M NOT convinced it's as bad as the experts make out... It's everyone else's fault... Even if I turn down my thermostat, it will make no difference." The list of reasons for not acting to combat global warming goes on and on.

This month, an American Psychological Association (APA) task force released a report highlighting these and other psychological barriers standing in the way of action. But don't despair. The report also points to strategies that could be used to convince us to play our part. Sourced from psychological experiments, we review tricks that could be deployed by companies or organisations to encourage climate-friendly behaviour. Also, on page 40 of this issue, psychologist Mark van Vugt of the Free University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands describes the elements of human nature that push us to act altruistically.

As advertisers of consumer products well know, different groups of people may have quite distinct interests and motivations, and messages that seek to change behaviour need to be tailored to take these into account. "You have to target the marketing to the demographic," says Robert Gifford of the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada, another of the report's authors.
Messages that seek to change behaviour need to be tailored to the interests of individual groups

The affluent young, for instance, tend to be diet conscious, and this could be used to steer them away from foods like cheeseburgers - one of the most climate-unfriendly meals around because of the energy it takes to raise cattle. So when trying to convince them to forgo that carbon-intensive beef pattie, better to stress health benefits than harp on about the global climate.

Though conservative pundits have been known to attack such efforts, characterising them as psychological manipulation or "mind control", experiments indicate that people are willing to be persuaded. "From participants in our experiments, we've never heard a negative backlash," says Wesley Schultz of California State University in San Marcos. In fact, according to John Petersen of Oberlin College, Ohio, we are used to far worse. "Compared to the barrage of advertising, it seems milder than anything I experience in my daily life," he says.

Good neighbours

DEEP down, most of us want to fit in with the crowd, and psychologists are exploiting this urge to conform to encourage environmentally friendly behaviour.

Researchers led by Wesley Schultz at California State University in San Marcos and Jessica Nolan, now at the University of Scranton in Pennsylvania, have found that people will cut their electricity usage if told that their neighbours use less than they do.

In one experiment, the researchers left information with households in San Marcos asking them to use fans rather than air conditioners at night, turn off lights and take shorter showers. Some messages simply stressed energy conservation, some talked about future generations, while others emphasised the financial savings. But it was the flyers that implored residents to join with their neighbours in saving energy that were most effective in cutting electricity consumption (Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, vol 34, p 913).

In another study, the researchers told households what others in their neighbourhood used on average. High users cut their consumption in response, but low users increased theirs. The problem disappeared if the messages were reinforced with sad or smiley faces. The smileys received by the residents who were already saving energy provided sufficient encouragement for them to keep doing so (Psychological Science, vol 18, p 429).

Information economy

MOST people seem to conserve energy if provided with real-time feedback on how much they are using. But feedback can be too immediate.

For instance, Janet Swim has a General Motors car that shows her mileage per gallon plummeting each time she accelerates. It's just not very useful, she argues, because it's hard to place that momentary piece of feedback in the context of her overall driving behaviour and fuel efficiency.

In contrast, the Toyota Prius display shows mileage per gallon over 5-minute intervals for the previous half-hour. With that contextual information, people can experiment with different driving styles to see how they affect mileage, and even compete with themselves to improve over time. The 2010 Honda Insight goes one better, flashing up an image of a trophy to reward thrifty driving.

The benefits of feedback are not restricted to car gadgets. Studies show that devices that display domestic energy usage produce savings of between 5 and 12 per cent.

Competitive instincts


EVERY spring, selected student dormitories at Oberlin College in Ohio compete to discover which one can cut energy use by the most. Computer screens give the students detailed feedback on electricity consumption, and in one study dorms cut their electricity use by 55 per cent (International Journal of Sustainability in Higher Education, vol 8, p 16).

The researchers running the study have not yet crunched their numbers to separate out the effects of competition from the feedback on electricity consumption, but the large savings compared to other studies that lack a competitive element suggest a strong effect. "The competition, at least in this environment, is critical," says John Petersen, Oberlin's head of environmental studies.

Petersen concedes that Oberlin may attract students with green sensibilities atypical of society at large. The project is about to extend into the real world. Equipment to provide detailed feedback on electricity use will be fitted into 53 apartments and six business units in a development now under construction in the city of Oberlin. "We hope to create volunteer groups that will compete with one another," says psychologist Cindy Frantz.

Here and now

PEOPLE have to be persuaded to act on climate change even though the benefit won't be felt for decades. Research by David Hardisty and Elke Weber of Columbia University in New York suggests ways to achieve this.

Hardisty and Weber have found that people respond in exactly the same way to decisions involving future environmental gains and losses as they do when making financial decisions (Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, vol 138, p 329). This allows psychologists' knowledge of how to manipulate financial decision-making to be brought into play.

For instance, schemes that give people an upfront cash payment for insulating their home will work better than those promising long-term savings, even if the people receiving cash end up paying a little more in the long run.

And because we are generally more worried about future losses than we are impressed by future gains, messages are more effective if framed to warn people that they will lose $500 over 10 years if they don't follow a particular course of action to limit climate change than if they are told they'll be $500 better off if they do take action.

Social networks


AS SOCIAL animals, we like to interact with others and take inspiration from their actions. Psychologists are working out how to exploit this to spread behaviours that will help limit climate change. "My sense is that social networks are going to be important," says Swim.

Allowing people to document successes in saving energy on their Facebook pages could drive change among their friends, and the Oberlin team is considering integrating this into its urban residence experiment.

Tawanna Dillahunt and colleagues at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, think such opportunities presented by Facebook can be combined with our liking for furry animals. Inspired by the attachment that people can develop towards Tamagotchi virtual pets, the team is testing the persuasive power of a "virtual polar bear" standing on an ice floe that grows bigger as people adopt environmentally friendly behaviours such as taking shorter showers. Initial results suggest the polar bear has pull.
 
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