The New Testament - What I Now Know

rickolasnice · Dec 20, 2013

Argh what no!? I hear you say

Just been up all night reading The New Testament starting from Romans as well as a lot of papers and theories by New Testament Scholars (and one self proclaimed scholar) and well.. I think I cracked it (well.. i didn't really discover anything I've just mashed theories together)..

I put it to you that 3 of the 4 gospels were rip off's of the first, that the first was written using Jewish scripture and a historic account of the Emperor Titus by Josephus Flavius(or the ye olde testament) and that the earliest gospel we have was never meant to be taken literally anyway, it was written as a piece of fiction.

OK.

Matthew and Mark are pretty much the same stories but jumbled up and Matthews includes the virgin birth. Luke also shares large portions of Marks stories in his gospels making it clear Luke used Marks gospels to write his own. Luke is not written as an eye-witness account, so it makes sense it wasn't the first. These 3 contain so many passages that are the same word for word that it pretty much makes it a sure thing they copied each others text.The gospels of John also contains the same events but his writings are a lot more eloquent and written by someone who must have spoken greek as a first language due to the way it is written. His writing has more of a gnostic element to it but nevertheless, a lot of it is the same story reworded written way after the first 3.

Mark is the shortest but more importantly it contains nothing of the virgin birth. This is obviously not a part of the story that someone is going to miss out. It's generally accepted among New Testament scholars that Mark's is the original. From wiki: "Such observations have been taken by most scholars as a strong clue to the literary relationship among the synoptics and Mark's special place in that relationship.[11] The hypothesis favored by most experts is Marcan priority, that Mark was composed first and that Matthew and Luke each used Mark and incorporated most of it, with adaptations, into their own gospels."

So Mark was the original text. All others used Marks to write their own.

Matthew, Luke and John are all written in opposition of each other. They build upon Marks writings but introduce theological differences and enhancements they wish to add depending on their agenda. Matthews contribution is the forcefully cramming in "prophecy fulfilments", probably to make it easier to convert Jews, while Luke seemed to be trying to make the story friendlier for nearby nations (by relating the story of Jesus to Palestinian and roman history as well as contemporaneous churches.. he was basically trying to gain followers and / or make christianity seem more legit / less threatening. John's agenda seems to be giving a ..!.. to the Jews.. Always portraying them negatively, referring to them as 'the Jews', filling his works with stories of miracles and signs and then at the end saying after all of that, they still didn't believe he was the messiah. We'll come to Marks agenda at the end

Now..

Almost every detail of Jesus comes straight from the Old Testament in 3 types of ways; explicitly referencing hebrew scripture, using hebrew scriptures for underlying theme and quoting or paraphrasing hebrew scripture without indicating that they had..

Type 1 example:

NSFW:

Type 2: Isaiah 13 is basically the underlying theme of Jesus' life

NSFW:

Type 3:Read these passages from the Old Testament in this order.. Notice anything?

NSFW:

And then there are loads of one for word (or very close to) copies from the OT to the New.. here are a few:

NSFW:

More-

NSFW:

Matthew 27:

30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.
32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44 In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

45 From the sixth hour* until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah.

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

* The sixth hour is noon

Isaiah 50:
6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
Amos 2:
11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Psalm 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
...
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
...
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalm 69:
Insults have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ... 9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Ezekiel 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

The crucifixion scenes in Matthew and Mark do not openly indicate that they are based on other scriptures, but the details of the scenes are nevertheless drawn directly from the older scriptures.

Psalms 22 and 69 are not prophecies at all, they are lamentation songs, and thus the similarities between the psalms and the Gospel stories could not be called "prophesy fulfillment" under any circumstance. In addition, the phrase "they have pierced my hands and my feet" is a mistranslation, and is not a part of the Hebrew text, but is a later variant of a Greek translation of the text.

Now, when it comes to the question of whether the crucifixion accounts of Mark and Matthew are historical, the fact that the scenes are clearly inspired by Isaiah 53, and parts of them are directly copied from Psalm 22, Psalm 69, Ezekiel 37, etc. means that the authors are not writing from either their own witnessing of the event or from a secondary telling of the account, they are writing from the scriptures. Their source for the story is the older scriptures - well, Mark's source is the older scriptures, and Matthew's source is Mark, plus his own additional references.

Clearly the story of the crucifixion of Jesus doesn't require a real event for its inspiration, all of the ideas needed to inspire the story already existed in the scriptures.

The thing is, the entire story of Jesus follows this pattern. Pretty much every detail of the life of Jesus comes from the existing literature from before his supposed time. To get an idea of the extent to which this is the case we can look at one of the Gospels and identify the scriptural basis for the events in the story of Jesus. A lot of these references are the same across all the Gospels, so I will just use the Gospel of Matthew here because it contains the most events and much of it is identical to Mark.

Here is an outline of the story of Jesus, based on the outline provided by the New International Version (NIV) Bible, with references to the passages in what we call the Old Testament that serve as the basis for the elements of the story as told by the author of Matthew. I use T1, T2, and T3 to designate the type of reference that is used. I won't present every quote due to length, but I will present some of the key quotes. I am also leaving out all of the parables because I am concerned here with the supposed events of the life of Jesus, i.e. the plot of the story:

Birth of Jesus:
T1: Matthew 1:2 - Isaiah 7:14 (based on Greek mistranslation):
"Then Isaiah said, 'Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.' "(Note: This is a mistranslation that will be addressed in the next section.)
T2: Matthew 1 - Isaiah 9:6:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Born in Bethlehem:
T1: Matthew 2:5 - Micah 5:2:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

Escape to Egypt:
T1: Matthew 2:15 - Hosea 11:1:
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."

Massacre of the Innocents:
T1: Matthew 2:17 - Jeremiah 31:15
T2: Matthew 2:16 - Exodus 1:22
"Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born to the Hebrews you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live.""

The Return to Nazareth:
T1: Matthew 2:23 - Judges 13:5:
"because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines." (Note: Jesus was called a Nazorean in the gospels because he supposedly lived in a place called Nazareth, but this refers to Samson being from a Nazirite sect. The author himself made the reference however)

John the Baptist Prepares the Way:
T1: Matthew 3:3 - Isaiah 40:3:
"A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD ;make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
T3: Matthew 3:4 - 2 Kings 2:8:
"They replied, 'He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist.' The king said, 'That was Elijah the Tishbite.'" (Note: Matthew 3:4 says: "John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist." Later in the story Jesus indicates that John was Elijah.)

The Temptation of Jesus:
T1: Matthew 4:6 - Psalm 91:11,12
T1: Matthew 4:7 - Deuteronomy 6:16
T1: Matthew 4:10 - Deuteronomy 6:13

Jesus Begins to Preach in Galilee:
T1: Matthew 4:12 - Isaiah 9:1:
"Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan"

Jesus Heals the Sick:
T2: Matthew 4:23 - Isaiah 53

Sermon on the Mount:
T2: Matthew 5-7 - Exodus 19...:
(Note: The Sermon on the Mount {which is only in the Gospel of Matthew} refers to how only Moses was allowed up the mountain in Exodus, but Jesus brings everyone up the mountain. Jesus then gives new interpretations of the Commandments and Laws {from Exodus 20...})

Jesus Heals Many:
T2: Matthew 8 - Isaiah 53

Jesus Calms the Storm:
T2: Matthew 8:27 - Psalm 107 28-29:
"Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he brought them out from their distress; he made the storm be still, and the waves of the sea were hushed."

Jesus Heals a Paralytic:
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5-6:
"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy."

Jesus Consorts with Sinners:
T1: Matthew 9:12 - Hosea 6:6:
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."

A Dead Girl and a Sick Woman:
T2: Matthew 9:22 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:25 - Isaiah 26:19:
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise"

Jesus Heals the Blind and Mute:
T2: Matthew 9:29 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5-6

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve:
T2: Matthew 10 - Joshua 4:1-2
"...the LORD said to Joshua, 'Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe...'" (Note: The number 12 is used throughout the "Old Testament" to represent 12 people, 12 rulers, 12 tribes, 12 special objects, etc. Also, Joshua and Jesus are the same name in Hebrew.)
T1: Matthew 10:34 - Micah 7:6

Jesus and John the Baptist:
T2: Matthew 11:5 - Isaiah 53
T1: Matthew 11:10 - Malachi 3:
"'See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,' says the LORD Almighty."

Woe on Unrepentant Cities::
T2: Matthew 11:20 - Genesis 19

God's Chosen Servant:
T2: Matthew 12:17 - Isaiah 53
T1: Matthew 12:17 - Isaiah 42:1-4::
"'Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.'"

Jesus and Beelzebub:
T2: Matthew 12:24 - 2 Kings 1:1-4

The Sign of Jonah:
T1: Matthew 12:40 - Jonah 1:17

Jesus Walks on the Water:
T2: Matthew 14:25 - Isaiah 43:5-6:
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. ... For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;" (Note: Walking on water was also a theme in Greek hero literature)

The Demand for a Sign:
T2: Matthew 16:4 - Jonah 1:17
T2: Matthew 16:1 - Genesis 19

Jesus Predicts His Death:
T2: Matthew 16:21 - Isaiah 53

The Transfiguration:
T2: Matthew 17:2 - Exodus 34:29:
"When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD."
T2: Matthew 17:2 - Daniel 12:2-4:
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the dome, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end." (Note: This shows the transfiguration as a foreshadowing of the resurrection)
T2: Matthew 17:11 - Isaiah 40:3
(Note: The symbolism in the transfiguration scene also reflects stories about Moses in the Hebrew midrash, as well as typical the sun-god imagery of the Greeks. See also: Philo, On the Life of Moses II, (288) "And some time afterwards, when he was about to depart from hence to heaven, to take up his abode there, and leaving this mortal life to become immortal, having been summoned by the Father, who now changed him, having previously been a double being, composed of soul and body, into the nature of a single body, transforming him wholly and entirely into a most sun-like mind;")

The Healing of a Boy With a Demon:
T2: Matthew 17:17 - Isaiah 53

Jesus Again Predicts His Death:
T2: Matthew 20:18 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 20:18 - Jonah 1:17
T2: Matthew 20:19 - Psalm 22

Two Blind Men Receive Sight:
T2: Matthew 20:29 - Isaiah 53
T2: Matthew 9:6 - Isaiah 35:5

The Triumphal Entry:
T1: Matthew 21:2 - Zechariah 9:9:
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
T3: Matthew 21:9 - Psalm 118:26

Jesus at the Temple:
T1: Matthew 21:12 - Isaiah 56:7
"...for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Zechariah 14.21:
"Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a merchant in the house of the LORD Almighty."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Nehemiah 13:4-9:
"And I was very angry, and I threw all the household furniture of Tobiah out of the room [in the temple]. Then I gave orders and they cleansed the chambers, and I brought back the vessels of the house of God, with the grain-offering and the frankincense."
T2: Matthew 21:12 - Hosea 9:15
"Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house."

The Fig Tree Withers:
T2: Matthew 21:19 - Hosea 9
"1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; ... 7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. 8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. 9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins. 10 'When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved. 15'... Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious. 16 Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.' 17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations." (Note: Many scholars have interpreted the cursing of the fig tree as a metaphor for Jesus' rejecting of those Jews who reject him and as a foreshadowing of his second coming and judgment. Hosea 9 provides the scriptural basis for this symbolism)

Signs of the End of the Age:
T3: Matthew 24 - Daniel 9:24-27:
"'Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two week, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.'"
T3: Matthew 24 - Daniel 11:31, 12:11
T3: Matthew 24 - Isaiah 13:8-11
"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless."
T3: Matthew 24 - Isaiah 34
"1 Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! 2 The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. 3 Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. 4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. 5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed. 6 The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat— the blood of lambs and goats..."

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus:
T2: Matthew 26:14 - Amos 2
"4 This is what the LORD says: 'For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. ... 5 I will send fire upon Judah that will consume the fortresses of Jerusalem.' 6 '... They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. ... 11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy. 13 Now then, I will crush you as a cart crushes when loaded with grain. (Note: The distinction between "Judas" and "Judah" is a part of English translation. In the original Greek they were both written as "Ioudas", thus these names were the same.)

The Lord's Supper:
T2: Matthew 26:20 - Psalm 41:9:
"Even the friend whom I trusted, who ate at my table, exults in my misfortune."

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial:
T1: Matthew 26:31 - Zechariah 13:7:
"'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!' declares the LORD Almighty. 'Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones"

Jesus' Prayers of the Cup at Gethsemane:
T2: Matthew 26:36 - Zechariah 12:2:
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations."
T2: Matthew 26:36 - Psalm 16:5
"LORD, you have assigned me my portion and my cup; you have made my lot secure."

Jesus Arrested:
T2: Matthew 26:55 - Isaiah 53:7-8:
"...he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. "

Peter Disowns Jesus:
T1: Matthew 27:72 - Zechariah 13:7

Judas Hangs Himself:
T1: Matthew 27:4-10 - Zechariah 11:12-13:
T2: Matthew 27:4-10 - Jeremiah 19, Jeremiah 32

The Soldiers Mock Jesus :
T3: Matthew 27:27 - Flaccus IV ; Philo (Note: The mocking of people as kings was a common practice at the time, one such event was recorded by the Jewish writer Philo, and may be the basis for the mocking of Jesus scene):
"(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a scepter they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state. (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa [King Herod of the Jews] was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign;"
T3: Matthew 27:30 - Isaiah 50

The Crucifixion of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 27:32-44 - Isaiah 53
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 22
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Amos 2
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 69
T3: Matthew 27:45 - Amos 8

The Death of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 27:32-44 - Isaiah 53
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 22
T3: Matthew 27:32-44 - Psalm 69
T2: Matthew 27:52 - Ezekiel 37:11-13

The Burial of Jesus:
T2: Matthew 26:57 - Deuteronomy 21:22-23:
"If a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree [or plank], his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, for he who is hanged is the curse of God, so that you do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance."
T2: Matthew 26:57 - Isaiah 53:9:
"They made his grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth." (Note: Jesus was placed in the tomb of a rich man)

The Resurrection
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Isaiah 26:19:
"Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead."
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Ezekiel 37:
"1 The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me all round them; there were very many lying in the valley, and they were very dry. 3 He said to me, ‘Mortal, can these bones live?’ I answered, ‘O Lord God, you know.’ 4 Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to these bones, and say to them: O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: I will cause spirit to enter you, and you shall live. 6 I will lay sinews on you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put spirit in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.’"
T2: Matthew 28:7 - Daniel 12:2-4:
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the dome, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end."
(Note: The resurrection of Jesus was portrayed as a sign of the end and as proof of the time of resurrections for all people)

As you can see, essentially the entire story of Jesus can be told from the writings that preceded it. The Jesus character in the Gospels is an archetypal figure drawn straight from the Hebrew scriptures, with an influence from the surrounding Greek culture as well.

Because of the fact that the Gospel of Mark is the root of all the Gospels, especially the synoptic Gospels, it is interesting to note how specific scriptural references made by the author of Mark became changed and somewhat lost by the later authors who copied from the Gospel of Mark. Perhaps the best example of this is the cursing of the fig tree.

The cursing of the fig tree in the Gospel of Mark is clearly based on an Old Testament scripture, but the writer of Matthew does not seem to have recognized this and lost the reference. Here is the cursing of the fig tree from the Gospel of Mark.

Mark 11:
12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:

"'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"

18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

19 When evening came, they went out of the city.

20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

This entire scene is based on Hosea 9, and refers to the destruction of Israel.

Hosea 9:
1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; ...
7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.
8 The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God.
9 They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins.
10 'When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim's glory will fly away like a bird—no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them!
13 I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer."
14 Give them, O LORD—what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.
15 "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.'
17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him;
We can clearly see here that the author of Mark uses Hosea 9 for his motif, because in Mark 11 the fig tree is in leaf but not in season, meaning that it was early in the growing season. Then Jesus goes to the temple to drive the people "out of his house". After that they return to the fig tree where they see that it was withered "from the root." This makes the parallel between Mark and Hosea 9 very clear, and shows that Hosea 9 was obviously the inspiration for all of these scenes. The author of Mark was also clearly making a reference to the meaning in the text of Hosea 9. Hosea 9 is talking about the destruction of Israel in no uncertain terms. The reader is supposed to make this connection and understand this as the meaning in the story.

But, let's look at how the writer of Matthew, the only other Gospel to include this scene, recorded this passage.

Matthew 21:
12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'"

14 The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant.

16 "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him.

"Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read," 'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"

17 And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.

18 Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

Here the entire scene is obviously changed around in such a way that it no longer mirrors the template from Hosea 9 and the references to being out of season are lost, as well as the reference to the root. The parallel with the Hosea 9 is pretty much lost here, so it would seem that the author of Matthew didn't recognize the parallel himself. It is also likely that the the author of Matthew thought that the original text of Mark seemed absurd, for why would Jesus have expected to see fruit on a tree before the season in the first place? In Matthew the deeper symbolism is lost and this now looks like a recounting of some historical event instead of what it really is, which is a literary allusion. The author of Matthew also added additional details to a story that was clearly contrived in the first place, so we can see here the growing of legend.

Despite this, there are still many recognizable parallels between the Hebrew scriptures and all of the Gospel texts. Christians claim that the parallels between the Gospels and the "Old Testament" texts are due to the fact that all of the parallels are prophecies that Jesus was fulfilling, but close inspection of the references shows that many of them are not even prophecies and that few of them actually could relate to the Jesus story. Regardless, even if they did all relate to the story there is nothing to show that the story was not simply crafted from the existing scriptures at the time, and indeed, for reasons that will be further discussed, this is by far the most reasonable explanation for the story of Jesus. If I took a copy of the works of Nostradamus today I could sit down and write a story about a character who fulfills hundreds of "his prophecies". Would that make either his predictions or my story "true"? Of course not, but this isn't what the early Church fathers and Christian apologists thought, they viewed the correlations between the Hebrew scriptures (which they typically read in Greek translations) and the story of Jesus as "proof that the religion is true." One of the best examples of this comes from Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote on this subject in the early 4th century in The Proof of the Gospel:

Grant then, dear friend, my request, and labor with rue henceforward in your prayers in my effort to present the Proof of the Gospel from the prophecies extant among the Hebrews from the earliest times. ... I propose to show, by quotations from them, how they forestalled events that came to the light long ages after their time, the actual circumstances of the Saviour's own presentment of the Gospel.... It shall be my task to prove that they saw that which was not present as present, and that which as yet was not in existence as actually existing; and not only this, but that they foretold in writing the events of the future for posterity, so that by their help others can even now know what is coming....

It seems now time to say what I consider to be desirable at present to draw from the prophetic writings for the proof of the Gospel. They said that Christ, [Whom they named] the Word of God, and Himself both God and Lord, and Angel of Great Counsel, would one day dwell among men, and would become for all the nations of the world, both Greek and Barbarian, a teacher of true knowledge of God, and of such duty to God the Maker of the Universe, as the preaching of the Gospel includes. They said that He would become a little child, and would be called the Son of Man, as born of the race of Mankind. They foretold the wondrous fashion of His birth from a Virgin, and—strangest of all—they did not omit to name Bethlehem the place of His birth, which is to-day so famous that men still hasten from the ends of the earth to see it, but shouted it out with the greatest clearness. As if they stole a march on history these same writers proclaimed the very time of His appearance, the precise period of His sojourn on earth.

It is possible for you, if you care to take the trouble, to see with your eyes, comprehended in the prophetic writings, all the wonderful miracles of our Saviour Jesus Christ Himself, that are witnessed to by the heavenly Gospels, and to hear His divine and perfect teaching about true holiness. How it must move our wonder, when they unmistakably proclaim the new ideal of religion preached by Him to all men, the call of His disciples, and the teaching of the new Covenant. Yes, and in addition to all this they foretell the Jews' disbelief in Him, and disputing, the plots of the rulers, the envy of the Scribes, the treachery of one of His disciples, the schemes of enemies, the accusations of false witnesses, the condemnations of His judges, the shameful violence, unspeakable scourging, ill-omened abuse, and, crowning all, the death of shame. They portray Christ's wonderful silence, His gentleness and fortitude, and the unimaginable depths of His forbearance and forgiveness.

The most ancient Hebrew oracles present all these things definitely about One Who would come in the last times, and Who would undergo such sufferings among men, and they clearly tell the source of their foreknowledge. They bear witness to the Resurrection from the dead of the Being Whom they revealed, His appearance to His disciples, His gift of the Holy Spirit to them, His return to heaven, His establishment as King on His Father's throne and His glorious second Advent yet to be at the consummation of the age. In addition to all this you can hear the wailings and lamentations of each of the prophets, wailing and lamenting characteristically over the calamities which will overtake the Jewish people because of their impiety to Him Who had been foretold. How their kingdom, that had continued from the days of a remote ancestry to their own, would be utterly destroyed after their sin against Christ; how their fathers' Laws would be abrogated, they themselves deprived of their ancient worship, robbed of the independence of their forefathers, and made slaves of their enemies, instead of free men; how their royal metropolis would be burned with fire, their venerable and holy altar undergo the flames and extreme desolation, their city be inhabited no longer by its old possessors but by races of other stock, while they would be dispersed among the Gentiles through the whole world, with never a hope of any cessation of evil, or breathing-space from troubles. And it is plain even to the blind, that what they saw and foretold is fulfilled in actual facts from the very day the Jews laid godless hands on Christ, and drew down on themselves the beginning of the train of sorrows.
- THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL; Eusebius, 4th century

Amazingly, Eusebius didn't seem to consider the possibility that the reason there are so many parallels between the Gospels and the Hebrew scriptures is that the Gospel writers based their stories on the scriptures.

Prior to Eusebius, Justin Martyr also attributed the "truth" of the Gospels and the "truth" of Jesus Christ to the parallels between the Gospels and the earlier Hebrew scriptures, and he even went so far as to state that the Hebrews themselves were not the authors of their own scriptures, God was, and the Hebrews themselves couldn't understand their own scriptures, since they weren't the true authors, and that the prophecies for Jesus are not all straightforward or self-evident because God presented them in a variety of ways and embedded them in stories. Justin Martyr gave his fullest description of this in his work First Apology, written in the 2nd century. Sections read:

CHAPTER XXXVI -- DIFFERENT MODES OF PROPHECY.

But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse. And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognize Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them.

Here Justin Martyr is basically justifying the fact that many of the parallels between the Gospels and the Hebrew scriptures are parts of other stories, songs, and things that by all accounts don't appear to be prophesies. Justin Martyr simply says that everything in the old scriptures is prophecy, thus there are "different modes" of prophecy in the scriptures.

CHAPTER XLII -- PROPHECY USING THE PAST TENSE.

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place,--as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me,--that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them. The words cited above, David uttered 1500 years before Christ became a man and was crucified; and no one of those who lived before Him, nor yet of His contemporaries, afforded joy to the Gentiles by being crucified. But our Jesus Christ, being crucified and dead, rose again, and having ascended to heaven, reigned; and by those things which were published in His name among all nations by the apostles, there is joy afforded to those who expect the immortality promised by Him.

Here Justin Martyr is specifically justifying parallels between the Gospels and the Hebrew scriptures where the parallels reference phrases that are written in the past tense, which are usually parts of other stories. He also talks about a "prediction of the crucifixion" by David, but there is a major problem here. What he is referring to is Psalm 22, where it says "a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet." The problem here is that the phrase "they have pierced my hands and my feet" is a mistranslation or interpolation, this is not a part of the scriptures in Hebrew, this is only found in later Greek translations of the text. This line originally read as follows: "For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me like a lion, my hands and feet."

More information on the translation of this line can be found here: Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion?

Even if the traditional Christian translation of this passage were correct, "they have pierced my hands and my feet" can apply to many things and it has been confirmed many times that the Roman's didn't actually crucify people by putting spikes through their hands because the hands couldn't support the weight. This passage is also the source for the portrayal of Jesus as crucified by putting spikes through his hands and the author of Luke's claim that Jesus proved he had been resurrected by showing the disciples the holes in his hands.

So what we can see is that from the very beginning scholars and theologians have been aware of many of the parallels between the story of Jesus and the Hebrew scriptures, and that early Christians, especially, believed that it was these parallels that proved that the religion was "true". Far from proving the "truth" of the religion, however, these parallels actually show us how the story of Jesus was crafted and demonstrate that the basis of the Jesus story is not reality, but scriptures.

The virgin birth.

NSFW:

You should get yourself one of these bad boys.. Seems the greek translation of the hebrew scripture wasn't very accurate.

So why did Mark write the gospels in the first place?

The gospels of Mark were written as a work of fiction, and the stories within may have simply been metaphorical. Jesus could have been the authors personification of his idea of God in a metaphorical sense, not a literal sense. * Why do i say these terrible things? Writings had different structures depending on what they are, as they do now - compare a news article to a work of fiction to a text book, or even writing formally or unformally, you follow?

*Edit - I now think it's likely that the religion, Christianity, preceded the story of Jesus as told be Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.. It's likely that the religion that Paul is so sickening pushing in his writings come before Mark's story and hence, was the inspiration behind it.

The gospel of Mark (or indeed, any of them) are written in such a way that you would write a fictional story. It is written in a narrative fashion and makes no claim to be a historical account. Historical works had a table of contents, were written formally and the writer identified themselves, You can see this if you read some texts like The War or the Jews by my man Josephus Flavius, History of Rome by Livy (30 BCE), The Histories by Tacticus (109CE).. Mark develops characters and has a plot, with scenes, suspense, and a climax.. Historical facts don't work like that.

The crucifixion happening on passover only makes sense if looked at as if a metaphor. The Sanhedrin had a set of very strict rules which include;No criminal session was allowed at night. No Sanhedrin trial could be heard at any place other than the Temple precincts. No capital crime could be tried in a one-day sitting and no criminal trial could be held on the eve of a Sabbath or festival. On passover, however, there would be many animal sacrifices.. I'll let my man Josephus explain:

NSFW:

Hmmm.. A lamb that is sacrificed for sins.. Wasn't Jesus referred to as a lamb, oh i dunno, 100 times throughout the bible?

So why did Christianity become so popular so quickly? Could it have been a perfectly executed ploy by the Romans to gain control of a troublesome area?

NSFW:

So we have 3 gospels all copying one but adding their own twist on things but in the end the original story of Jesus was nothing more than an allegorical fiction using Jewish scripture for inspiration and plagerism to gain control of rebellious Jews. Or was it a piece by a self critical Jew who felt that it was the Jewish peoples fault for the fall of Judea because they had lost their connection with God.

OK so it may have no been allegorical but it was fiction (given the evidence) and I may be going a lil too far suggesting the legend was a Roman invention but eh.. makes sense to me.

Have I missed anything?

Sources:

NSFW:

rickolasnice · Dec 22, 2013

123 views and no reply.. Wonder how many people read it?

This took me fckin hours to type

pmoseman · Dec 22, 2013

rickolasnice said:
123 views and no reply.. Wonder how many people read it?

This took me fckin hours to type

I liked it and could follow it up until the bit about Titus.
(have not followed the links yet.)
Love the stone arch photo.
I am thinking about getting mum that bible for Christmas BTW.

rickolasnice said:
....
Have I missed anything?

Reference page?

pmoseman · Dec 22, 2013

rickolasnice said:
And who is it that accompanied him?

"2 Corinthians 16
Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative."

I don't see anything about tax collecting our being accompanied by the Lord. Could you do more to explain this please?

MyDoorsAreOpen · Dec 23, 2013

As the Dead Sea Scrolls and the revival of gnosticism via the internet have made amply clear, there were quite a few gospels written in the first and second centuries AD, and the four that made it into the New Testament as we know it were hand selected by the Nicene Council, because they (both individually and in combination, most likely) served the agenda of the early Church more than all the others.

I agree with you that Mark is definitely chronologically and thematically closest to the source of any of the four selected gospels (and John the farthest). But what makes you so sure Mark is the original Jesus story? There's no possible way the author we call "Mark" could have been contemporaneous with Jesus or anyone who personally knew Jesus. You entertain the possibility that he made the story up from scratch, but I think there's also a good possibility he based his account on an earlier one, which could be one of the other Gospels that didn't make the cut, or could be completely lost today.

Allow me to get all lit-crit on you for a minute. Originality in writing is something that tends to come in shades of grey, and is largely illusory. It's hard to find a piece of writing (or music or visual art, for that matter) that doesn't bear the influence of earlier ones that the author was exposed to, whether he's aware of this or not. You find original and unique arrangements of ideas all the time. Entirely unique ideas, on the other hand, are fairly rare. It would be very interesting to me -- and you as well, I assume -- to travel back in time to meet "Mark", and see the people he interacted with, the lore he was exposed to, the political and spiritual climates he was steeped in, and most of all, the works he read.

And now I'll cut to the chase, with regards to Jesus, his early advocates, and why his story has gone viral. I think the Jesus we've come to know embodies a universal yearning for transcendence of how hard getting along with other people is. What the story of Jesus proposes is a solution to the pain of the Human Condition. Not an easy one to accept or put into practice, mind you. But Jesus' message is a welcome ray of hope that the power struggles that typify day to day life for all of us are not at all endless or wanton. There is a way out, and all this pain is part of a greater plan. I for one am not at all threatened by the prospect that this message long predates the character of Jesus as portrayed in the four canonical gospels. It's an ancient message of hope and redemption, that bore repeating then, and still does now. I agree that the core of this message has been forgotten or conveniently ignored by many men of power who've used Christianity as a tool for political ends. But it's still there, and yours and mine for the taking, if we read the story carefully and compare it to other similar narratives from around the world and throughout history.

As for Jesus the man himself? I think he probably was a real person. But the Jesus that lives on in our minds today is so encrusted with lore, legend, artistic license, and numerous political agendas from throughout the ages, that separating out the actual dude and what he actually said and did is probably not possible. I'd like to think he was a guy who made an impression on people contemporaneous to him by having the balls to publicly stand up and say "it doesn't have to be like this".

I'm not all that knowledgeable about the styles and genres of writing from around the ancient Middle East, but I do know that up until relatively recently in China, the line between history and literature was a very blurry one. Writers would put stories down on paper under the assumption that readers would accept what they wrote as probably true to fact. And this was easier to do when you didn't have as global an outlook. If the events you're reading about happened in a far off place you'll never visit, long ago, then it probably has little bearing on you our your day-to-day life how historically accurate they are, and very well might have happened exactly that way, for all you know. What's important is the impact the story has on you, and the impact the relayer of the story intended to have on you in relaying it to you.

rickolasnice · Dec 27, 2013

EDIT - This post is about Paul the apostle, not John.

Every written account we have of Jesus' life come from the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. They are all clearly written off of the back of another, so which was the first? It's obvious that Mark came first for the reasons I went through in the OP, mainly that which didn't include the virgin birth but also it is the oldest gospel known to us that included Jesus' life.

John the Apostle speaks of Jesus, and indeed his writings are dated earlier than Marks, but he mentions nothing to do with Jesus as a man, and especially nothing to do with Jesus as a man that walked the earth not 2 decades earlier. He writes as If he is expecting old prophecies to come true:

Romans 11:
5 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written:

‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’
27‘And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.’

Rather than writing as though Jesus has indeed walked among us, just 15 years ago.

He uses crucifixion in a very metaphorical sense, too:

Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires

Galatians 2:
17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me

Galatians 3:
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

When we consider John the apostle to be the earliest known source of Jesus, as well as an important figure in the early Christian church, it makes sense to me that the author of John wrote Jesus' life story as an allegorical work of fiction based upon the teaching of Paul, using ancient Jewish scriptures as the backbone of the "real life" (using real places and events) Jesus while Jesus himself was the allegorical God as preached by Paul.

If my (plagiarised) thesis is correct I'd guess that the story of Jesus was either an excuse as to why the Jews were being slaughtered left right and centre and why the fall of Judea was imminent (not doing as God wanted, etc)..

If the above is not true, I'd guess the story of Jesus was a well thought out plan by the Roman elites, one reason could have been to calm Jewish militias or another could be the realisation that religion was the most powerful tool known to man, and their creation of the Roman Catholic Church could (and has) become one of the most powerful organisations on the planet.

Colossians 1:
24 I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. 25 I became its servant according to God’s commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 It is he whom we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone in all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ.

There were many people called Jesus in those days (very common name) and their were "messiahs" popping up left right and centre.. So I'm sure there was a Jesus around that time that would fit your "historical" Jesus.

It seems to me as though Paul's agenda was to gain as many followers of "Christ" as he could. And when, within his writing, he mentions (went through in more detail in OP) such things as the invention of the collection plate being personally taken (or escorted) by Titus himself it seems crystal clear to me that Paul was very pro-Rome and Roman empire.

Where is it we get Jesus' teachings from? His morals? .. The gospels (of ultimately

Mark. The only evidence we have of Jesus before that is from Paul who seems to be doing his best to start a new religion, which seems to shout the message "Love they Emperor" (Albeit not so literally)

I invite you to read the whole story surrounding those passages

NSFW:

The Collection for the Lord’s People

8 And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2 In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people. 5 And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us. 6 So we urged Titus, just as he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7 But since you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in the love we have kindled in you[a]—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

8 I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

10 And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter. Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. 11 Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. 12 For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.

13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

Titus Sent to Receive the Collection

16 Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel. 19 What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help. 20 We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. 21 For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

22 In addition, we are sending with them our brother who has often proved to us in many ways that he is zealous, and now even more so because of his great confidence in you. 23 As for Titus, he is my partner and co-worker among you; as for our brothers, they are representatives of the churches and an honor to Christ. 24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

rickolasnice · Dec 28, 2013

Not sure where this fits in with my thesis yet but this is the earliest known writing about a Jesus being crucified.. It is colour coded by scholars (explains at the top).. Very interesting read.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/passion-young.html

There is no mention of Jesus being the Son of God, or God, and there is no mention of a resurrection. This may just be an account of a military leader, a leader of a Jewish rebellion that had been sentenced to crucifixion.. Mark may have incorporated this into the wonderful tale of Passion, the passover and resurrection.

Explains why he was called Jesus and not Emmanuel

This text was written between 50 - 120AD
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Please try and tell me that isn't the lay out of rules and rituals performed by the Roman Catholic Church.

Interesting letter.. apparently we're never to know the truth and Jesus may have been a paedophile $:\$
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/secretmark.html

GodandLove · Dec 28, 2013

rickolasnice said:
Not sure where this fits in with my thesis yet but this is the earliest known writing about a Jesus being crucified.. It is colour coded by scholars (explains at the top).. Very interesting read.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/passion-young.html

There is no mention of Jesus being the Son of God, or God, and there is no mention of a resurrection. This may just be an account of a military leader, a leader of a Jewish rebellion that had been sentenced to crucifixion.. Mark may have incorporated this into the wonderful tale of Passion, the passover and resurrection.

Explains why he was called Jesus and not Emmanuel

I did not and am not going to read that long first post... so just simplify the reason of this thread for me. What are you trying to prove or disprove?

MyDoorsAreOpen · Dec 28, 2013

Rick, I can see you've done your homework, but I'm still seeing you make a logical leap from The gospels are the earliest extant intact versions of the story to The gospels are the earliest versions of the story.

I understand that you have an agenda to show that Jesus was a fictional character, and by thus doing discredit Christianity, and I see how letting a point like this slide serves that agenda well. I do not share or sympathize with this agenda, so please forgive me for having a harder time seeing past it.

The problem with an issue like this is that it's pretty hard to find rigorous scholarship done by people who truly have no horse in the race. Most people who study Jesus have a strong and deeply-felt personal interest in either buttressing their faith or convincing themselves they're justified in not having any, and that interest is set long before they ever crack open a book.

rickolasnice · Dec 28, 2013

Why don't you sympathize with this agenda?

I learned some things about the New Testament (still am) and thought I'd share my findings so people could respond in any which way they wanted to.. Religion, especially Christianity and the bible, have become hobbies of mine and are of my favourite topics to discuss (debate).

And there was a lot more to my post than showing that the gospels are the earliest surviving copies of the life of Jesus.. MDAO, now come on $:\$

GodAndLove said:
I did not and am not going to read that long first post... so just simplify the reason of this thread for me. What are you trying to prove or disprove?

Early Christians did not believe that Jesus was a man who had been to earth (As shown throughout writing by Paul the Apostle and his cronies).

The life of Jesus started as an allegorical work of fiction, The Gospels of Mark. John, Luke and Matthew are all copies of Mark with extra parts added, depending on their agenda.

Mark reworded ancient Jewish scripture to write a story using their prophecies as a backbone.

One of the earliest apostles, Paul had a very pro-roman, gain as many members as you can, don't ask questions agenda to speedily build the "body of christ".

This became the Roman Catholic Church.. ~~one of the largest criminal organizations on the planet.~~ (A lot of Christian holidays, etc are just Pagan (church of rome at the time) revamped)..

Speculation: The Jesus we all know and love was nothing more than a *ploy by a group of Roman Elite to cease ever lasting power and live forever in the form of a God. (*Or they quickly took control of the emerging church)

The Roman Empire didn't die.. it's now known as the Catholic Church.. *Dun dun Deerrrrnnn!* still speculation

NSFW:

pmoseman · Dec 28, 2013

MyDoorsAreOpen said:
....that interest is set long before they ever crack open a book.

You cannot escape that initial expectation. I think you can open any book with a skeptical outlook, this claims to be accurate but I want to see if it actually is, and that initial investigative mindset does not override the truth.

Mysterie · Dec 28, 2013

i cant read the entire thread right now, but am interested in a resource that could bring my parents christian perspective out of dogmatism and closer to truth.

if this bible sounds like what it is guys, can you point me in the direction of how i can acquire it?

i just caught a few words so i could be pretty off point

rickolasnice · Dec 28, 2013

pmoseman said:
You cannot escape that initial expectation. I think you can open any book with a skeptical outlook, this claims to be accurate but I want to see if it actually is, and that initial investigative mindset does not override the truth.

What are you waiting to see is accurate or not? I'm lost..

i cant read the entire thread right now, but am interested in a resource that could bring my parents christian perspective out of dogmatism and closer to truth.

if this bible sounds like what it is guys, can you point me in the direction of how i can acquire it?

i just caught a few words so i could be pretty off point

This is not a version of the bible Mysterie

This is a post attempting to prove that the story of Jesus is one of fiction.. with added speculation of why the myth started.

NSFW:

Mysterie · Dec 29, 2013

ok who wants to write a version of the bible that doesnt reek of bs ??

im a busy guy

rickolasnice · Dec 29, 2013

OK.. take the bible.. rip out everything after "In the beginning" and then write: Nobody knows..

Then stuff it full of science text books.

MyDoorsAreOpen · Dec 29, 2013

rickolasnice said:
Why don't you sympathize with this agenda?

Because I think the enduring appeal of a figure like Jesus speaks to a very basic human yearning, which is real and enduring no matter the historical origins of the figure we know today. I feel this yearning and relate to others who do also. Namely, this sentient existence is damn painful, and if enduring all this pain is ultimately for nought, stop this train I'm getting off! I am not an adherent of any formal religion. My spirituality is idiosyncratic and minimalist, and I live just over the border from unbelief: I believe there is some greater plan to all this, but what it is, and whose plan it is, I have no idea and am open to any and all suggestions. Ultimately, I look upon those who look to others (like Jesus) for clues and answers to what the plan might be, with compassion and empathy. Even if a seeker's pursuit of a certain path or veneration of a luminary figure is ultimately misguided, I still relate very much to the motivation for their seeking.

I understand that not everyone relates to this yearning for a greater plan that makes the pain of existence more bearable by putting it in perspective. I understand that some people feel stronger yearnings that go against this, and take great pride in repressing their yearning for a greater cosmic plan in the service of some principle they hold higher. As long as they're satisfied, that's fine. I don't relate, but I do understand that not everyone is built like me. I abide anyone who doesn't enjoy giving me a hard time for believing what I do, instead of what they do, about life and ultimate reality.

I learned some things about the New Testament (still am) and thought I'd share my findings so people could respond in any which way they wanted to.. Religion, especially Christianity and the bible, have become hobbies of mine and are of my favourite topics to discuss (debate).

That's awesome. I think this is the right place for you, and you're in good company here. Please accept the fact that I'll probably remain a peripheral participant to your debates, because although I've also read a good bit on religion and spirituality, I'm quite jaded on the whole interfaith debate / dialogue thing. It's a strongly polarizing topic that almost everyone has a strong opinion on, and I think it's wishful thinking that a completely neutral dispassionate discussion on the topic can happen between people whose viewpoints on it are strongly opposed.

As a matter of fact Rick, when I say you're in good company here, I'm somewhat jealous of you. I wish I could vicariously rejoice with unbelievers who've finally found a fellow group of unbelievers to discuss religion with. But you know what's far harder to find than a group of people willing to subject all religion to rigorous scholarly analysis? People willing to do this who haven't rejected religion altogether. It's similar to the feeling I get reading triumphant stories of girls or women being the first to be accepted into a former "boys' club". I want to cheer for them, but my enthusiasm is hampered by a rueful sense that males who transgress gender boundaries won't ever be celebrated the same way.

And there was a lot more to my post than showing that the gospels are the earliest surviving copies of the life of Jesus.. MDAO, now come on $:\$

I know. But I haven't really read enough on the subject to address any of your other points.

rickolasnice · Dec 29, 2013

Whether Jesus was real or his life story was a work of a allegorical fiction, as you've already said, it doesn't matter. You can take what you wish from the scriptures regardless of the historical accuracy.

Instead of looking at ancient texts for purpose and answers to your questions why do you not look within yourself? What do you want? Why not start a thread and properly discuss with like-minded people their beliefs and see if you can find some answers within the ideas of others?

I won't ask why you feel that life is such a pain but maybe you should be focusing more on that rather than an ultimate release? Be the change you want to be. Change your life so you no longer wait for the "happy ending" but instead live the "happy story". It may seem unreachable but it's not, you just have to do something about it.

It just so happens one of my best friends overdosed a couple of weeks ago. He was the only friend I had that i could discuss things like this with as he had a passion for it as much as I.. So to be honest, I'm just as alone as you. There are many people here and elsewhere that share similar principles of belief as you.. talk to Foreigner or L2R, for example.

And who says they won't be cheered for in the same way? And if they aren't, fuck em.. More the fool for them. (the crowd, i mean)

pmoseman · Dec 29, 2013

rickolasnice said:
What are you waiting to see is accurate or not? I'm lost..

Oh. That should read

"You cannot escape that initial expectation. I think you can open any book, with a skeptical outlook, which claims to be accurate, to see if it actually is. That initial investigative mindset does not override the truth."

Rybee · Jan 6, 2014

Reading the Bible at the moment - though very slowly. Excellent posts here OP, and others! Really interesting points made.

GodSpeedK · Jan 15, 2014

Nice one. Good to see an in-depth analysis or deconstruction of the New Testament. Rips the reliability of it's claims to shreds.

The New Testament - What I Now Know

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter