US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

[cduggles]

Thanks SJ!
Zephyr, as noted above the Russia investigation started when James Comey ran the FBI.

After Comey was fired, a special investigator was appointed by the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. The Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself because he had failed to disclose some of his meetings with Russians (?!?!), so Rosenstein was acting appropriately in this role.

Trump can't fire Mueller directly. Rosenstein can. He will likely refuse to do so. Trump can fire Rosenstein, and then he can go to whoever is next in line and keep firing until someone fires Mueller. If this sounds ridiculous, keep in mind that #3 at the DOJ, Associate Attorney General Rachel Brand quit, reportedly because she didn't want to deal with this stuff.

Trump can also replace Sessions and get an Attorney General with no conflicts of interest to fire Mueller. The one thing that probably stopped that was that the AG has to be approved by the Senate and Sessions used to be a Senator. The Senate let him know there wouldn't be a vote for awhile if Sessions got canned.

Also, and this can't be overstated, Mueller is truly viewed as bipartisan and apolitical. He was voted in for another 2 years as head of the FBI (ten years is the term limit) by a unanimous vote in the Senate (that usually only happens when they are getting raises).

If the House of Representatives flips Democrat, they can vote for impeachment hearings. The GOP is sick of him too, so we shall see.

There is precedent for this with Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre.

 

[spacejunk]

Trump can't fire Mueller directly. Rosenstein can. He will likely refuse to do so. Trump can fire Rosenstein, and then he can go to whoever is next in line and keep firing until someone fires Mueller. If this sounds ridiculous, keep in mind that #3 at the DOJ, Associate Attorney General Rachel Brand quit, reportedly because she didn't want to deal with this stuff.

and all of the recent firings (well, the last 12+ months of constant staff changeover in the trump administration) has possibly gone a long way towards normalising this process.

Also, and this can't be overstated, Mueller is truly viewed as bipartisan and apolitical.

it seems like these are increasingly rare traits to find in a man of his position - partly because of trump's shameless nepotism and promotion of people to senior positions who have blatant conflicts of interest, but also because he's making the working lives of some government employees so difficult.

case in point, the state department;

State Department Lost 12% of its Foreign Affairs Specialists in Trump’s First 8 Months

U.S. Diplomat’s Resignation Signals Wider Exodus From State Department

from that second article:

An award-winning U.S. diplomat who was seen as a rising star at the State Department has issued a scathing resignation letter, accusing Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and the Donald Trump administration of undercutting the State Department and damaging America’s influence in the world.

Elizabeth Shackelford, who most recently served as a political officer based in Nairobi for the U.S. mission to Somalia, wrote to Tillerson that she reluctantly had decided to quit because the administration had abandoned human rights as a priority and shown disdain for the State Department’s diplomatic work, according to her letter, obtained by Foreign Policy.

the trump adminstration tries to pass this kind of thing off as deliberate cost-cutting (and yes, budget cuts are part of the problem) but it goes a lot deeper than that.

or "draining the swamp", though really, i think "circling the drain" is more apt.

the sad thing about how the public tends to respond to news like another high ranking trump official leaving office (whether they walked, or they were pushed) is this sense of boredom people tend to have at its frequency - rather than it ringing the alarm bells that it should.
i think we are all becoming so oversaturated with evidence of severe dysfunction in the trump administration that this kinds of gradual chipping-away can normalise some deeply messed up stuff.

 

[cduggles]

^ Budget cuts are necessary. Badly executed tax reform doesn't pay for itself.

Also, with regard to firing, this isn't the private sector where you can always find someone for the right salary. Most career government employees don't want to work closely with Trump. Who wants to be the next White House communications director? The Mooch again maybe?

Working for the Trump administration is not a resume builder for anyone and it's very stressful. People don't want to be investigated or even questioned by Mueller because lawyers are expensive and you have to get one if subpoenaed.

Once in awhile, you get someone like Pompeo, who is slated to take over Tillerson's place, who thinks they are the one who will make it through the gauntlet. Yes. You are special. No, you aren't, actually. You're fired!

The other interesting thing you're seeing is Trump hiring from within. For example, floating Rick Perry (Secretary of Energy) to head the EPA if he fires Scott Pruitt. That's because they already have security clearance and he wants yes-people in the jobs.

Interestingly, Senator Tom Cotton was supposed to take over the CIA. Either Cotton doesn't want a job for < 3 years or he doesn't want to work for Trump or both, and/or the Republicans don't want to risk an Senate Arkansas seat. None of which is good for Trump.

So I know it seems like Mueller is moving at a glacial pace (he's not) and that there are no consequences to Trump firing people, but there are.

If Trump fires Mueller, the investigation doesn't end. Also, as we're seeing in the Manafort case, Mueller is working closely with the attorneys general of multiple states, including NY, to ensure no one gets pardoned out of justice.

Mueller is a person by all accounts of excellent character, but he also likes to win and he's navigated DC politics for a long time. He's not some bumbling guy who couldn't make it in the private sector.

I mention that because people are being and have been flipped. People who are testifying don't want to go to jail. Mueller is serious. Manafort is wearing two ankle bracelets and is unlikely to leave prison ever once one of his trials is over (not sure how that works, maybe he commutes to the other trial?). He's the "here's what happens when you don't cooperate" example.

Finally, Trump isn't attracting the best and the brightest anymore. It's all starting to catch up with him. And it's early.

 

[spacejunk]

^ good points, cduggs.

i assume that things are going to get even more erratic, desperate and dysfunctional - which hardly seems possible, at this point - or at least until you consider what some of the real-world possibilities there when shit hits the fan - when governments get really bad.

 

[tathra]

in a healthy relationship, criticism and admonishment are as fundamental as love, if not fundamental elements of love. what would be unpartriotic would be for him to not do what he's doing out of some unexamined sense of 'patriotism'.

i criticize my country because i love it, because i know it can do better, because we should always strive to do better.

also another good chance for this little gem of wisdom:

The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.

teddy roosevelt, may 1918

Finally, Trump isn't attracting the best and the brightest anymore. It's all starting to catch up with him. And it's early.

he never attracted the best and brightest, at any point. the only ones he's ever attracted or wanted are conniving sycophant traitors that dont give a shit about the country.

 

[zephyr]

^ Tath you have a point in that quote however I would like to think that appropriating blame for his or his governments mistakes is not as fundamentally important as himself or his govt taking full responsibility for their actions and then activity setting about learning from it and fixing it.


No one ever in office anywhere seems to be able to do that and the deflection of blame to anyone else besides themselves also shows their lack of being able to be responsible to have any authority.


He wont ever admit to any mistakes so wont learn and wont ever care

 

[JGrimez]

Mueller is a person by all accounts of excellent character,

lol

Wikileaks posted a cable from 2009 showing that then FBI Director, Robert Mueller delivered highly enriched stolen Uranium to Russia.
Background to the story via Wikileaks cable:

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE85588_a.html

Background: Over two years ago Russia requested a ten-gram sample of highly enriched uranium (HEU) seized in early 2006 in Georgia during a nuclear smuggling sting operation involving one Russian national and several Georgian accomplices. The seized HEU was transferred to U.S. custody and is being held at a secure DOE facility.

In response to the Russian request, the Georgian Government authorized the United States to share a sample of the material with the Russians for forensic analysis. Director Mueller previously planned to deliver the sample in April (Ref A), but due to a scheduling conflict the trip was canceled.

Embassy Moscow LegAtt informed the FSB prior to Mueller?s intended April delivery and received confirmation that the FSB would take custody of the sample after the Director?s plane landed. EST Moscow also informed Rosatom of the planned transfer and that the U.S. placed a high priority on completing this transfer (Ref B). Once the LegAtt told FSB counterparts the April trip had been canceled, Ambassador Beyrle informed Igor Neverov (Ref C), who said that he understood but was disappointed the trip was postponed.

​

Why aren?t the Democrats up in arms over Mueller?s visit to Russia? After all, according to the <> Democrats, any contact with the Russians creates a cloud of suspicion and must lead to an investigation.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/wikileaks-fbis-mueller-delivered-highly-enriched-stolen-uranium-russia-2009/

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...-plane-side-ta

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton facilitated the transfer a highly enriched uranium (HEU) previously confiscated by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) during a 2006 “nuclear smuggling sting operation involving one Russian national and several Georgian accomplices,” a newly leaked classified cable shows.

 

[Xorkoth]

First of all, this isn't about Democrats vs Republicans, I don't know why you made it about that. This is about Mueller and his character. In the instance you're pointing out, he was just following orders and doing his job as FBI director. Even if something shady was going on there, it wasn't his fault, nor does it have anything to do with partisan politics.

Besides that though, the case you're quoting is an above-board cooperation between Russia and the US in nuclear forensics with some seized nuclear fuel from another country besides Russia or the US. In fact if you read down in the second or third paragraph, it was believed the fuel was stolen from a Russian facility so it makes sense to return it to them, don't you think?

The case you're pointing out isn't even remotely the same as aiding Russia in tampering with our election system.

 

[JGrimez]

In the instance you're pointing out, he was just following orders and doing his job as FBI director. Even if something shady was going on there, it wasn't his fault,

He was the director of the FBI. If it was anyone's fault it was his. And if it wasn't, then who's?

Besides that though, the case you're quoting is an above-board cooperation between Russia and the US in nuclear forensics with some seized nuclear fuel from another country besides Russia or the US. In fact if you read down in the second or third paragraph, it was believed the fuel was stolen from a Russian facility so it makes sense to return it to them, don't you think

Call me crazy but no I don't think Americans should be giving Russia highly-enriched uranium.

The case you're pointing out isn't even remotely the same as aiding Russia in tampering with our election system.

This case is Mueller investigating Russian collusion.
Also known as projection.
Let's just imagine if Trump was caught tomorrow giving some HEU to the Russians lol

 

[spacejunk]

Call me crazy but no I don't think Americans should be giving Russia highly-enriched uranium.

I don't think americans should be doing a number of things - among them; arming the world and denying climate change (generally destroying the earth at an alarming rate).

What do these criticisms of mueller have to do with trump though?

I'm sure there are many prosectutors with shady histories of one kind or another.
What impact does that have on the charges they successfully bring against people?
Generally none.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well, being that Russia and the US are the two nuclear superpowers and we sort of both allow each other to have nukes, while disallowing everyone else (which is pretty hypocritical but there it is), and the HEU was Russia's that was stolen, it seems like the correct procedure to me, whether Trump ordered it or some other president. Though I'm sure if it was Trump there's be all sorts of controversy just given the political climate and the existing Russia investigation, even though I wouldn't personally think there should be about that particular instance. I mean what is the harm in giving Russia back their Uranium? They already have thousands of nukes, a similar number as we do, we know this already, what, are they gonna make one more that is somehow going to tip the scale? It was stolen from them by another country that does not have nukes. If we had kept it, it could have caused needless tensions with Russia.

Anyway, from the wiki for FBI director:

the Director reports to the Director of National Intelligence, who in turn reports to the President.

So there is a chain of command.

 

[tathra]

Call me crazy but no I don't think Americans should be giving Russia highly-enriched uranium.

but i thought you wanted us to be Russia's ally? so which is it, are they friendly or hostile?

 

[JGrimez]

What do these criticisms of mueller have to do with trump though?

Mueller is investigated Trump for Russian collusion, which he hasn't found evidence of yet. Some say that he's projecting and attempting to cover up for real Russia collusion from others.

What do these criticisms of mueller have to do with trump though? What impact does that have on the charges they successfully bring against people?

Any successful charges of collusion or conspiracy?

but i thought you wanted us to be Russia's ally? so which is it, are they friendly or hostile?

When did I say this. If Russia is considered a dangerous enemy then why would an FBI director personally hand them some HEU? That's not even getting to Mueller running the FBI while a deal was struck to actually sell them US uranium. I don't get how they could flip so quickly

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Thanks SJ!
Zephyr, as noted above the Russia investigation started when James Comey ran the FBI.

After Comey was fired, a special investigator was appointed by the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. The Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself because he had failed to disclose some of his meetings with Russians (?!?!), so Rosenstein was acting appropriately in this role.

Trump can't fire Mueller directly. Rosenstein can. He will likely refuse to do so. Trump can fire Rosenstein, and then he can go to whoever is next in line and keep firing until someone fires Mueller. If this sounds ridiculous, keep in mind that #3 at the DOJ, Associate Attorney General Rachel Brand quit, reportedly because she didn't want to deal with this stuff.

Trump can also replace Sessions and get an Attorney General with no conflicts of interest to fire Mueller. The one thing that probably stopped that was that the AG has to be approved by the Senate and Sessions used to be a Senator. The Senate let him know there wouldn't be a vote for awhile if Sessions got canned.

Also, and this can't be overstated, Mueller is truly viewed as bipartisan and apolitical. He was voted in for another 2 years as head of the FBI (ten years is the term limit) by a unanimous vote in the Senate (that usually only happens when they are getting raises).

If the House of Representatives flips Democrat, they can vote for impeachment hearings. The GOP is sick of him too, so we shall see.

There is precedent for this with Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre.

I concur. Nice handle on the situation.

 

[JGrimez]

Though I'm sure if it was Trump there's be all sorts of controversy just given the political climate and the existing Russia investigation, even though I wouldn't personally think there should be about that particular instance.

the media would call that a smoking gun. If it was Trump.

I mean what is the harm in giving Russia back their Uranium? They already have thousands of nukes, a similar number as we do, we know this already, what, are they gonna make one more that is somehow going to tip the scale? It was stolen from them by another country that does not have nukes. If we had kept it, it could have caused needless tensions with Russia.

This could be an explanation but they did organize a deal to sell russian govt uranium mined from the us mainland. A lot of it. Why give an enemy material they could help use to destroy you. This makes no sense

the Director reports to the Director of National Intelligence, who in turn reports to the President.

So there is a chain of command.

So Obama was the one who gave HEU to Russian govt.

 

[Xorkoth]

This could be an explanation but they did organize a deal to sell russian govt uranium mined from the us mainland. A lot of it. Why give an enemy material they could help use to destroy you. This makes no sense

There are very few politicians I support... I think the entire system is corrupted to the core on all sides.

So Obama was the one who gave HEU to Russian govt.

Yeah, that's right. I don't blindly support Obama, nor did anyone mention Obama at all. I thought we were talking about Mueller? This is a serious question, I'm not trying to dig at you: why can't Trump supporters ever talk about things without mentioning how Hillary and/or Obama are terrible? It's pure deflection. I mean I wasn't even talking about Trump, I only mentioned him to actually support that it would be bogus the way the media would attack him in the sort of scenario we're talking about, which was me agreeing with that point that you made. But even so, rather than acknowledge the argument I was making (that Mueller is not personally responsible for the HEU incident), you attacked Obama out of left field. It had nothing to do with what we're talking about but you're acting like it's proving your point somehow.

 

[JGrimez]

Yeah, that's right. I don't blindly support Obama, nor did anyone mention Obama at all. I thought we were talking about Mueller? This is a serious question, I'm not trying to dig at you: why can't Trump supporters ever talk about things without mentioning how Hillary and/or Obama are terrible? It's pure deflection.

To be fair I was discussing Mueller and you deflected his responsibility onto the person above him, the President. If you're an employee and your superior requests that you do something that you know isn't above-board, should you comply? Do you have an obligation to refuse or blow the whistle? "I was just following orders, blame my boss". The director of the FBI is responsible for a very important position. He should be making sure even the President is isn't doing anything untoward. The point was that many people consider Mueller a very bad guy, a criminal in fact. Mueller also had evidence of a whole bunch of crimes surrounding the Uranium One deal. It was his responsibility in that situation to make sure that everyone involved (including Obama/Clinton) were aware that the deal should not have gone ahead. And if it did go ahead anyway he should have blown the whistle. He knew about it all and he didn't. Just to be clear: Mueller ignored crimes that allowed the Russian government to obtain US uranium. If that isn't the definition of Russian collusion then I do not know what is. Maybe that explains why he's going after the guy now who would be able to investigate and charge Mueller himself with collusion, the current POTUS?

Thanks for clarifying that you agree with the point about the double-standards against Trump.

 

[JGrimez]

"In the aftermath of FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe?s termination, numerous officials have voiced their opinion on the decision.
One of those that seem to be in agreement with Attorney General Jeff Sessions? move is Kenneth Strange, who served the FBI as a member of the Joint Terrorism Task Force in Newark, New Jersey.
Strange insisted that McCabe may be facing federal charges for ?lying to other federal agents, charges that Special Prosecutor Robert Mueller knows all too well and is wielding with great effect in the Russian collusion case.?

?Still, I wonder about Mueller,? Strange wrote for The Hill. ?McCabe, Peter Strzok and James Comey all are public servants who former FBI Director Mueller mentored, supervised or knew well.?
As Mueller has watched numerous co-workers come under fire for dishonesty ? from Peter Stzork to James Comey ? Strange suggests the failure of Mueller?s team may be taking a toll on the special counsel prosecutor.
?Mr. Mueller, show the American people what my colleagues in law enforcement already know ? that you are a man of great wisdom and integrity,? Strange said. ?Do the honorable thing and recuse yourself from the Russian collusion investigation.?

?Step aside with dignity and let the investigation play itself out without any further controversy about you, the FBI and your team,? he added. ?The American people deserve no less.?

 

[cduggles]

I'll catch up on this more thoroughly later, but lead Trump team attorney John Dowd resigned and reportedly Trump is having a hard time finding a replacement.

A Craigslist ad is up with John Kelly as a contact for any attorney who is interested. :D

Michael Cohen (who paid off Stormy Daniels), is not in a particularly good position because either he prepared an important document and paid someone with compromising information off without telling his client (v bad for him personally) or he helped his client violate campaign finance laws (bad for everyone).

What's interesting is it looks like Trump's legal team, like his staff, is going to get worse. It's amazing in one sense that Trump can't find a lawyer. In another sense, it's amazing how many he needs.

I was reading an interesting legal discussion about pardons. Trump could just pardon whomever he wants and go on with his life. The problem of course being that presidential pardons only extend to federal crimes, which is why Mueller is working with DAs in several states and Paul Manafort is wearing two ankle bracelets.

So there is that...

 

[JGrimez]

Some serious corruption being uncovered:

Newly uncovered text messages between FBI officials Peter Strzok and Lisa Page suggest a possible coordination between high-ranking officials at the Obama White House, CIA, FBI, Justice Department and former Senate Democratic leadership in the early stages of the investigation into alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, according to GOP congressional investigators on Wednesday.

The investigators say the information provided to Fox News ?strongly? suggests coordination between former President Barack Obama?s Chief of Staff Denis McDonough, then-Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid, and CIA Director John Brennan ? which they say would ?contradict? the Obama administration?s public stance about its hand in the process.

Page texted Strzok on Aug. 2, 2016, saying: ?Make sure you can lawfully protect what you sign. Just thinking about congress, foia, etc. You probably know better than me.?

A text message from Strzok to Page on Aug. 3 described former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe as being concerned with ?information control? related to the initial investigation into the Trump campaign. According to a report from the New York Times, Brennan was sent to Capitol Hill around the same time to brief members of Congress on the possibility of election interference.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...arly-in-trump-russia-probe-investigators.html