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The Methyl Group's Action

shamus

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
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212
It's common knowledge that the 'diacetyl' in heroin simply means more morphine in the brain (correct me if I'm wrong of course).

What I'm interested in is the methyl group (CH3?) and it's ramifications (anything like diacetyl?), particularly in regards to amphetamine vs. methamphetamine & mda vs. mdma.

Are these two comparisons congruent (same ramifications except with the added serotonergic methylenedioxy?).



Cheers =D
 
It doesn't directly mean more morphine in the brain - though this it's indirect consequence. The acetyl groups mean that it's lipophilicity (a substance's abillity to be fat-soluble) is increased, so it can cross the BBB more easily. The acetyl group is useful in this sense because it is hydrolyzed (removed) easily, so adding it to a molecule doesn't really alter it's actions at a receptor too much - you're just making a prodrug (prodrug = gets converted to the active form once in the body where it needs to be).

As for a -CH3 group - this is highly variable. In the case of methamphetamine, it increases the BBB penetration due to the exposed amine group being less polar as a secondary amine (R-NH-R) than a primary amine (R-CH3 ie. like in amphetamine). It also alters receptor affinities - I believe it increases affinity for SERT in amphetamine vs. methamphetamine.
MDMA it may play a similar role, I don't remember the binding differences between MDA and MDMA.
I do know however that that is why MDA gives visual distortions while MDMA produces almost no distinct visual distortions - amine methylation ruins the affinity to the 5-HT2A receptor in that kind of structure.
This is why all the psychedelic phenethylamines are ruined if you methylate them (say, N-methyl-4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxy-phenethylamine) - they no longer fit in that particular receptor properly!
So, different effects for different targets; no hard'n'fast rule.
 
In the case of methamphetamine, it increases the BBB penetration due to the exposed amine group being less polar as a secondary amine (R-NH-R) than a primary amine (R-CH3 ie. like in amphetamine).

Actually, secondary amines are the most polar of all amines (can't remember why), other than quaternary amines, but they (quaternary) will not cross the BBB as they carry a charge that isn't part of the equilibrium (quaternary amines are so polar that they behave like an alkali metal ion, only many times larger.

I've got a theory that the polarity of secondary amines is what reduces the binding affinity in tryptamines & ergolines (nor-LSD is orders of magnitude less active than LSD).

It's probably something to do with steric hinderance of the lone pair electrons, but I've forgotten why that actually is (either that, or as mrs f&b says, I'm going senile!)
 
MattPsy.. very interesting, I thought otherwise.

Where did you get this information from?
 
F&B - eekk, sorry, my bad!
Why is MA more potent than Amp then? Does the secondary amine just have a lot better affinity for the monoamine reuptake transporters in question than the primary amine of amp, and the polarity of said amine group doesn't even come into it?

Acyl - nowhere in particular, sorry, so can't give particular references. What pars do you want clarification on? If you want some parts explained I could provide references. Just stuff i've learned over the last 2 years once I got interested in pharmcol. Going to be studying it formally next year.
 
fastandbulbous said:
Actually, secondary amines are the most polar of all amines (can't remember why), other than quaternary amines, but they (quaternary) will not cross the BBB as they carry a charge that isn't part of the equilibrium (quaternary amines are so polar that they behave like an alkali metal ion, only many times larger.

I've got a theory that the polarity of secondary amines is what reduces the binding affinity in tryptamines & ergolines (nor-LSD is orders of magnitude less active than LSD).

It's probably something to do with steric hinderance of the lone pair electrons, but I've forgotten why that actually is (either that, or as mrs f&b says, I'm going senile!)


Why wouldn't tertiary amines be more polar than secondary, it seems like they would follow the trend. more Inductive forces from the extra R group would push electron density to the Nitrogen. More separation of Charge. equals more polar.
 
fastandbulbous said:
Actually, secondary amines are the most polar of all amines (can't remember why), other than quaternary amines, but they (quaternary) will not cross the BBB as they carry a charge that isn't part of the equilibrium (quaternary amines are so polar that they behave like an alkali metal ion, only many times larger.

I've got a theory that the polarity of secondary amines is what reduces the binding affinity in tryptamines & ergolines (nor-LSD is orders of magnitude less active than LSD).

It's probably something to do with steric hinderance of the lone pair electrons, but I've forgotten why that actually is (either that, or as mrs f&b says, I'm going senile!)


Why wouldn't tertiary amines be more polar than secondary, it seems like they would follow the trend. more Inductive forces from the extra carbon would push electron density to the Nitrogen. More separation of Charge. equals more polar.
 
I was unaware that nor-LSD had any activity.

fastandbulbous said:
Actually, secondary amines are the most polar of all amines (can't remember why), other than quaternary amines, but they (quaternary) will not cross the BBB as they carry a charge that isn't part of the equilibrium (quaternary amines are so polar that they behave like an alkali metal ion, only many times larger.

I've got a theory that the polarity of secondary amines is what reduces the binding affinity in tryptamines & ergolines (nor-LSD is orders of magnitude less active than LSD).

It's probably something to do with steric hinderance of the lone pair electrons, but I've forgotten why that actually is (either that, or as mrs f&b says, I'm going senile!)
 
Beenhead said:
Why wouldn't tertiary amines be more polar than secondary, it seems like they would follow the trend. more Inductive forces from the extra carbon would push electron density to the Nitrogen. More separation of Charge. equals more polar.

Have a look at the pKa values for any series of primary, secondary & tertiary amines (eg methylamine, dimethylamine & trimethylamine) - it's not just for amines with methyl groups either. As I said, I can't remember why, but I've a feeling it's to do with hinderance of the lone pair.


I was unaware that nor-LSD had any activity.

I was referring to receptor binding affinities more than actual psychedelic activity as it's psychedelicness (is that a real word? =D) as that also seems to depend on secondary messengers etc
 
My book has Kb values. It says that tertiary amines don't follow the trend because Stearic effects block solvation.the opposing trend of inductive forces Cancel out in most cases , as a result primary , secondary 'and tertiary amines all have similar ranges in basicity

Also, directly on polarity, tertiary amines don't have the polarity of primary and secondary because the latter has hydrogens available for H- bonding. Tertiary amines can only accept hydrogen bonds.
 
From The Chemistry of the Amino Group by Saul Patai 1968, ISBN 0470669314, Chapter #4 - Aliphatic Amines.


Please note that changes in energy, enthalpy, etc are not in appropriately represented (subscript/superscript)


A. The Methylamines

The basic strength of methylamine is appreciably greater than that of ammonia. This is sometimes attributed to the +I inductive effect of the methyl group, leading to an increased electron availability at the nitrogen atom. It would perhaps be better to regard this as a mutual polarisation of the methyl and amino groups. At the same time it is of importance to note, as will be discussed later, that the difference in ΔG0 and hence in pKa arises more from the difference between the entropy changes associated with the dissociation of the ions than from the difference between the enthalpy changes.

The substitution of a second hydrogen atom of the ammonia molecule by a methyl group to give dimethylamine leads to only a small further increase in base strength, whilst the substitution of the third hydrogen atom leads to a considerable decrease, trimethylamine being only slightly stronger as a base than ammonia. This peculiar order of base strengths was attributed by Brown and his coworkers to what they call 'B-strain'. This they define as the strain introduced into a molecule as a result of changes in the normal bond angles of an atom brought about by the steric requirements of bulky groups attached to that atom. Thus they suggested that in trimethylamine the three methyl groups are crowded around the small nitrogen atom, and that their steric requirements are met by a spreading of the CNC bond angles to a value greater than the tetrahedral angle.

On this view the addition of a proton to the lone pair, which would tend to reduce the bond angle to the tetrahedral value, is resisted by the molecule. Very similar ideas have been expressed by Fyfe. These views, however, seem to be inconsistent with the observations of Lide and Mannl", who have deduced from the microwave absorption spectrum that the CNC bond angle in trimethylamine is 108.7 ± 1 degree.

The apparent anomaly is clarified to a considerable extent, however, by reference to the precision measurements of Everett and Wynne-Jones on ammonia, methylamine, dimethylamine, and trimethylamine, which covered a wide range of temperatures and of ionic strengths. These permitted the evaluation of ΔG0p, ΔS0, ΔG0, and ΔH0 for the dissociation of each of the cations. The final results for 25 degC and zero ionic strength are included in Table 1. [Not included, but can be redrawn when if required - when time allows; p_d]

For the dissociation of the ammonium ion ΔS0 is small and ΔC0p is zero. Unlike methane, which is repelled from water due to the large negative ΔS value involved, the ammonium ion must be very strongly attracted by water. As a result there is only a very small decrease in entropy on dissociation corresponding with the slight changes in the orderliness of arrangement attending the replacement of the NH+ ion by an H3O+ ion and a water molecule by an ammonia molecule. The equilibrium is determined principally, therefore, by ΔH0, which in turn depends mainly on the relative base strengths of ammonia and water.

As the hydrogen atoms of the ammonia molecule are successively replaced by methyl groups the value of ΔS0 changes systematically to more negative values. Trotman-Dickenson explained this as arising from the progressive decrease in the number of hydrogen atoms on the amine cation available for hydrogen bonding to solvent molecules, thus decreasing the constraint produced in the solvent through this cause. At the same time ΔC0p acquires a progressively larger positive value, this being associated with a large decrease in ΔH0.

For the change from ammonia to methylamine the entropy effect predominates and leads to a large increase in ΔG0 and hence in pKa, but for the subsequent changes from methylamine to dimethylamine and from dimethylamine to trimethylamine almost similar increases occur in -ΔS0, but with each step ΔC0p shows increasing increments, with associated decreases in ΔH0. The result is that a maximum value of ΔG0 is reached at dimethylamine.

In addition to the effect produced by the reduction of the number of hydrogen bonds to the cation, and the further ordered structure produced near the aminium group, the successive additions of methyl groups would be expected to yield increasing areas of surface over which hydrophobic hydration can occur in the neutral amine molecule, and to reduce slightly the hydrogen bonding of its amino group. It is difficult to assess the area over which hydrophobic hydration can occur but it is not unreasonable to suppose that this may be very much greater over the almost complete hemisphere formed by three methyl groups than over the smaller surfaces presented by two or one methyl groups. Being close to the centre of positive charge this hydration atmosphere will be almost wholly dispersed in the cation, so the heat capacity of the system in the dissociated state will be higher than that for the cation-solvent system, since it contains a term representing the heat required to disperse this solvent layer.

This has a corresponding effect on the enthalpy of the amine-solvent system, since a considerable amount of heat would be required to bring the solvent atmosphere around the methyl groups isothermally to the more random state which exists around these groups in the cation. These effects and theories regarding hydrophobic hydration are discussed fully by Ives and Marsden.

It is interesting to note that the effects become modified in aqueous methanol solution, where for ammonia ΔS0 becomes positive, possibly through the ammonium ion exerting a greater sorting effect in its hydrogen bonding than does the hydroxonium ion. Although ΔC0p; has the rather unexpected value of - 12 cal/deg/mole for methylamine, it is very low for the other amines, indicating that no phenomenon analogous to hydrophobic hydration occurs to an appreciable extent in this solvent mixture. The changes in ΔS0, therefore, may reflect the decrease in the number of hydrogen atoms in the cation available for hydrogen-bond formation. The ΔG0 values for dimethylamine and triethylamine must be lower at zero ionic strength than at I = 0.10, so the net result is that in this medium methylamine seems to be the strongest of the bases.

Incidentally, this is a great book and is probably still available as an e-book. Patai has published other stuff, including; The Chemistry of Functional Groups: Amino, Nitroso, Nitro and Related Groups, A series of advanced treatises founded by Professor Saul Patai and under the general editorship of Professor Zvi Rappoport
 
MattPsy- Nah, everyhting you said makes complete sense.

I just wasnt aware of the fact that methylated amines completely diminished the affinity of psychedelic amphetamines to that particular receptor. I figured theyd still be active.. I suppose this is why shulgin never explored em! Is that possibly where you got it from? PiHKAL?

I need to give that book another good read over.
 
fastandbulbous said:
^ He's really got the hots for nitrogen atoms, hasn't he! =D
An almost unhealthy love for them at that! It is similar to what my chemistry book says, just way more descriptive and with a touch of thermodynamics. I do say that amines was the ore section of my book I absolutely could not wait to get into. It actually has an entire section on the basification of cocaine HCL. In the aromatics section, it has an interesting question on using a variation of the Birch reduction to turn Ephedrine into meth.

what role does short chain R groups versus longer chain R groups play in the activity of N,N dialkylatedTryptamines.? Do longer, more branched chains only make them less potent? they must also account for fitting into the receptor differently and thus the change in experience. Like why many people love DMT but feel DPT has a sinister push. the longer-branched chain analogs ft the receptor in a way that creates a more sinister feel or a earth shattering rethink your life play of colors and form.
 
Acyl:
Nah, not from PiHKAL, though, you can certainly deduce that from what little of them Shulgin did make!
More, just reading of scientific research papers on the subject.

Check out:
Influence of Amine Substituents on 5-HT2A versus 5-HT2C Binding of
Phenylalkyl- and Indolylalkylamines
J. Med. Chem. 1994,37,1929-1935

Molecular interaction of serotonin 5-HT2A receptor residues Phe339(6.51) and Phe340(6.52) with super-potent N-benzyl phenethylamine agonists - Michael R. Braden, Jason C. Parrish, John C. Naylor, David E. Nichols.
and
Quasi-atomistic Receptor Surrogates for the 5-HT2A Receptor: A 3D-QSAR Study on Hallucinogenic Substances - Meike Schulze-Alexandru, Karl-Artur Kovar and Angelo Vedani

Ki for N-Me-2C-B compared to 2C-B is 380+/-140, vs. 34 nM, respectively, from that first paper. Sure the range is pretty wide there, but the fact that the N-dimethyl deriv. is even worse at binding, being 420+/-90 nM supports the fact that N-methylation ruins it.

Interestingly enough, an N-benzyl substituent raises the affinity massively (that's what's being mentioned in that5 second paper), and particularly the (2-hydroxy/methoxy)benzyl derivs, but they don't seem to be psychedelic! Like F&B says, they aren't activating the right secondary messengers. Also - some might actually be antagonists. Affinity doesn't necessarily mean an agonist.
 
As well as being a prodrug for morphine, heroin also has intrinsic activity. Hence the subjective difference in effects between heroin and morphine.
 
???
I was under the impression the subjective differences between morphine and H was simply because there are less peripheral effects when you take H because more of it ends up in the brain making you feel goooood, rather than binding all through your body making you feel hot & itchy and stuff?
 
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