• LAVA Moderator: Shinji Ikari

Travel The MEGA Travel Thread!

^ Yep, and the thing is, a lot of westerners, with exotica in their face and euro/ameri-shame behind them, get caught up in an eternal-tourist mindset - meaning they are unable to criticize the wrongs of the societies they live in (e.g. "TIT").

Now Thailand, for me at least, is a special case - in which the entirety of Thai society is rotten for more reasons than one. This is why my criticisms sounds as though they are gross generalizations. Like a sick person, Thai society has illnesses as a whole that I can especially see as a sociologist, and those illnesses cause the whole of Thailand to be an unpleasant entity.
 

Now Thailand, for me at least, is a special case - in which the entirety of Thai society is rotten for more reasons than one. This is why my criticisms sounds as though they are gross generalizations. Like a sick person, Thai society has illnesses as a whole that I can especially see as a sociologist, and those illnesses cause the whole of Thailand to be an unpleasant entity.

lol, well, you know I'm going to take more deference rather than going this far. I still love the country, but have just learned to look deeper, at all that hinds behind "face." The complexities are interesting to me, but not something I would consider 'good' for a culture. Basically, I'm not willing to take, what could either be called my cultural imperialism, or my realism, to the lengths of yours.

heh :D
 
^ Well, think of it this way: If the aztec empire still existed today as it did a thousand or so years ago, what would you think of it?

Here is an exotic culture in which ripping out a human's beating heart in public was seen as a good thing. Would you say TIT (This is Tenochtitlan)? :D

Yes, it is VERY interesting (to observe/study), but would you not talk against it because of TIT?

(p.s. my "you" is a general one, not Carl, since him and I understand each other).
 
yeah good points - its government is rotten and corrupt and its society hs major flaws...When I comes to health and safety Thailand is a joke. I laugh at captain Thailands who just love everything about this country and nothing else and say TIT above EVERYTHING. I also laugh at people who believe that ''Now Thailand, for me at least, is a special case - in which the entirety of Thai society is rotten'' - 100%...is this true? do you believe EVERYONE? ...my God you must have had some horrible times here, I feel for you. Do you think just maybe there might be some personal issues effecting this judgment - (''A WHOLE SOCIETY'') but then again when isnt there? Maybe I do turn a blind eye too may times here in Thailand ie Health and Safety issues, and sometimes that 'eazy going' work attitude.

Thailand has lots of problems, what country doesntIm interested In the interracial relationships side of things...thats where Im stemming from not its monkey government..

...I value all the oppions from people (you guys) who have lived it (the longer the better)...my major gripe (cards on the table) is the general view the world has of Thailand (the media - whatever you want to call it). The way when I go to some tourist places i see some tourists look at me and my wife like somethings not quite right (maybe how they did 70 years ago in America when a white women was with a black man or 20 years ago with homosexuality) - they start thinking in black and white and all the sterio types pop in their head - I can see it - (and even Im to blame of this (only when in some areas)and I have a great Thai wife -crazy- thats how deep it has sank in our 'media' - for a lack of a better word - led minds) ''I bet he is just paying her money- she is a whore - or even lunacy like its fashionable etc etc...'' 'Thailand is nothing but go-go bars and people after your money..'but my situation (maybe im lucky) is the reverse...((- Thai's sometimes like to over charge the farang on things (taxi drivers are my person gripe - some of them are c*nts!) - but I say again -learn the language it changes things alot...now all the taxi's drivers are more than cool ...maybe they just see someone who now cant be over charged hahaha...:)))- even to the point of me becoming friend's with a taxi driver on my street who even takes me to some places for free or next to nothing hahaha

Its like when I 'laugh' at the general view the world (mass media or middle views, or whatever you want to call it) has on drugs:

''drugs are bad'' - now don't get me wrong drugs are bad, but there are lots of gray areas - I have had lots of positive experiences on drugs, however I've had some negative experiences to. Im sure *you feel the same as this is a drugs forum.

The same can be said about Thailand.

If you started talking to some middle minded 'typical Joe' in a bar and asked him honestly ''Drugs - what are your views?'' more than likely they will be negative. (we know that this is not to be, its not so black and white) Now ask him ''Thailand - what is your views?'' more than likely it will be negative. (Now I know this is not so black and white)....I dont know maybe Im just extremely lucky with my experiences...But then I know many couples, my friends who are western men who have married a Thai and have been having a happy, fullfilling life for alot longer than me..How can I explain that??..I also know a homosexual relationship/ interracial that has been going on for years and I've never seen two people more happy...who knows I can only talk from my view point... (I value anyones view point who has lived here - the reason I keep saying -''maybe im lucky''

But when people start thinking only in, - i keep using the term - black and white and box a ''WHOLE SOCIETY'' then this is foolish even dangerous - we all know what happen In 1939 - to take this topic to the exteme..


Its just the black and white thinking regarding Thai women (interracial relationships) that throws me - either into laughter or boredom or even to debate it on a drugs website........I have alot of time to kill in these hours of the day/ evening - after work....with my crazy Thai laptop, that keeps electric shocking me!...which I bitch about...''why cant Thailand build a good computer! why cant Thai this, why cant Thai land that''...nothing wrong with a good bitch..Im not a captain Thailand, TIT fool...

....Does anyone have any positive and negative experiences with Thai women, that they would like to post? If no on the former then....shit, man....sounds like I have been lucky...

p.s.
this *you is a general one ;)
 
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. I'd love to hear a counter point based on logic and rationality, as to how this fits the country, or makes it what it is. ."

koh jai mai, na krhap?

sawdee kap.
kap pom.

Die yin kap koh jai kap.

Dang jai fang kap...
pom kit wa chivit nai Gungtape bah lae nueay tae sanook mak kap.
Pom hen bang-khon mar teaw muang Thai mai nan tae powk cow kit-wa cow roo jak muang Thai dee kap.

Rational: erm, yeah..as rationality is more based on subjectivity.

Logic: hell no lol!:)


But then again I beleive most women are not logical too...;)

heng heng
 
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the entirety of Thai society is rotten

I often feel this about where I come from. And I felt it strongly in Japan, and even more so in China although I didn't even live there. I think this sport of point of view stems from a major disaffection... quite normal, perhaps, but certainly never fully accurate. I might as well say humans are rotten to the core... and i wouldn't be far off the mark.
 
^ I was being half-sarcastic (about the quoted remark).

This is what foreigners will think of you when they read your remarks.

When I think with the semitic half of my mind (rather than the western half), I find your behaviour typically western - which is exactly what you seem to be struggling not to be. When most people categorize women by race, it has nothing to do with cattle or objectification or whatever your nearest feminist decided to make fashionable. It has more to do with taste. No matter how much we want to deny it, race (biological) exists, and people CAN be categorized accordingly without it being necessarily malicious. And in fact, that is the norm in Asian societies as you very well know.

See, let me put it for you this way.

I rarely ever find Asian men attractive, so I say, "I don't find Asian men attractive". This supposedly makes me a racist, right?

By that logic, I am also a misogynist because I don't find woman sexually attractive, right?

---

Yes, I agree with you about humanity. If you read my other posts on BL, you'll notice that I am in fact a misanthrope when it comes to groups even though I care a lot about individuals.
 
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I think HIV and left over landmines is a pretty cool guy, eh kills random people and doesnt afraid of anything.

tho the beaches are awesome and landmine free. (but not so much hiv free)

And I felt it strongly in Japan

I'm racist towards Japan because their racist towards me...I find it humorous in its own way.
 
This is an intense thread, but a great read! LonelyPlanet.com's ThornTree never gets this intense, though this would be tame for Dave's ESL Cafe -- a forum that never fails to show the darkest sides of culture clash.

I think a lot of the heartache and frustration that comes from Westerners trying to make it in Thailand (and Japan) boils down to really two things:
1) This is a culture that is very good at selling itself and making a charming first impression, and migrants feel cheated when what they ultimately find there is not what they were originally promised.
2) This country is SO good at selling itself that there's no shortage of foreigners who want to move there. So it takes an awful lot of self-delusion to convince yourself you're doing anything unique or adventurous in moving there, or are any more than 'just another foreigner' to most of the locals you encounter.

Thailand and Japan are countries I will almost certainly visit again. But I wouldn't move to either one permanently, I don't think. I just have too many preconceptions about both of these places to ever appreciate either of them 'as is' long term. There are many places that make fine places to vacation, even repeatedly, but not nice places to move. These are two of them. Miami is a third that comes to mind.

I'm glad I went to Taiwan to teach English, because I had no expectations of how that country is 'supposed to be', and therefore no chance to be disappointed when it didn't live up to these expectations.

I would say to anyone seeking work as an English conversation teacher in Asia: never forget that you are, underneath it all, a migrant worker. Being a migrant worker means that you will get offered a lot of raw deals, including ones you're not in a position to refuse. Many times you won't be in able to do anything about it, simply because you're not local, and can't works the ins and outs of the system the way a local can. If you can approach any working sojourn in a far off place with the attitude of, "I'm blessed to have ANY source of ANY income here AT ALL", then you're on the right track. If this strikes you as a bit too much of what Nietszche would call 'slave morality', then don't work abroad, if you can help it.

Call me a racist, but overall, I find that people in East and Southeast Asia are just more open about choosing to do X, because choosing X will garner the greatest material gains for me and mine. People do this everywhere, I'm aware. But often conspicuously absent in Asia is the middle step, where the doer of the deed uses elaborate rational justifications about why his choice is 'for the greater good' or in line with some lofty set of abstract moral principles. No. If it makes me more money and/or brings more honor upon me and those close to me, then it's what I'll do. Period. A certain 'businessman's anti-intellectualism', as Wikipedia calls it, seems to prevail a lot there.

Granted I'm speaking in gross generalizations. There's a lot more depth to this highly diverse collection of cultures than what I just wrote, and many people who make decisions for all kinds of other reasons. But in my experience, what I just described is a COMMON sticking point for Westerners, in their attempts to form friendships and working relationships with locals in East Asia.

People there do not ask "Who am I, and what is my purpose in life?", but "Who are my people, and what are my obligations to them?" This can lead to people who are not "in-group" being, and feeling, exploited, more easily :\
 
Please don't feel "racist" for merely expressing your (correct, IMO) hypothesis about another culture ;).

That said, I found the Thais offered a unique fault that is absent from other Asian people I've known: the lack of honour. Maybe I was particularly frustrated by that because I myself was raised in a culture of honour. This is also why I cannot help but speak condescendingly of Thai society - I spent a good part of a year trying to be respectful, but one can only take so many spits in the face to say "fuck it".
 
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where's the potatoes?



When I think with the semitic half of my mind

I hear you there my friend, it always comes down to race.

When I think with the Irish half of my mind I want to get drunk and set bombs off...no really, no joke!
 
^ Mr. Bungle. You've been so desperately trying to paint me a racist all along because I have beef with what could be the most racist society on earth.

You and I have never spoken before as far as I know.

Everyone else in this thread knows me much better than you do.

They all know that I'm not a racist (far from it - I escaped your beloved Thailand because I was being discriminated against), and most of them know EXACTLY why I say what I say about your pathetic country.

So stop trying. You're wasting your time, especially that your posts are barely legible drunken rambling anyway.
 
lack of honour?

how is that possible, what with their concern abourt losing "face" ?

That's not what I meant by "honour".

Honour is dignity.

Honour is reliability.

Honour is honesty.

Honour is fidelity.

...etc.

All of which the Thais lack.

For example, I have actually witnessed a teacher ordering her student to sell her wares for a higher price to a foreigner at a school fare (to give you one of the daily things that went on there). That is teaching your students to be dishonourable.

The Thai fear of loss of face has more to do with deception and shame rather than being honourable.
 
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Honour is dignity.

Honour is reliability.

Honour is honesty.

Honour is fidelity.

I like to think that these are traits many of us aspire to and few if any of us have truly perfected. And this goes for people in ANY society. Just as there are honourable Thais there are less than honourable people in EVERY other society on this planet. Don't know about the proportion... but I just don't accept your generalisation.

By the way, in China they quite openly price things higher for foreigners. Not uncommon in poor Asian countries where tourists go. So it isn't just Thailand.

But I haven't lived there, so...
 
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