dr rico yi
Bluelighter
Ummm no.
You cant. You have to prove you a part of and accepted by an Aboriginal community and that you need the assistance.
Just because you have aboriginal heritage does not mean you get welfare.
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AADD Moderators: andyturbo
The Mean Generation
- Thread starter Prometheus
- Start date
You cant. You have to prove you a part of and accepted by an Aboriginal community and that you need the assistance.
Just because you have aboriginal heritage does not mean you get welfare.
Finn
Bluelighter
Chemical Night,
It's called the cult of individualism - it's a particularly nasty 'ism! Unfortunately it has captured the hearts and minds of people like yourself... to the detriment of Australia and its people.
It's very easy to sit back and hypothesise from the comfort of one's middle class, white, male existence. Very safe too. I mean, you have the dominant discourse and culture to back you up!
Just know that there are many, many people living in this country who don't feel the way you do. People who's lived experience is nothing like your own. People who's priorities are very different to yours. People who have different values, different beliefs, different cultures.
Unfortunately for these people, their voices have much less chance of being heard.
Why?
Because of something called hegemony.
hegemony
/'heguhmuhnee, 'hej-, huh'gemuhnee/ noun (plural hegemonies )
1. leadership or predominant influence exercised by one state over others.
Have you heard of it? Possibly not. I mean, it's not really important when you're a part of it. It's just the way it is.
Never, ever forget just how privileged you are. Never, ever forget that there are many people who live lives very unlike your own. People who struggle as a matter of course. People for whom an awareness of hegemony is equally unimportant... but for very, very different reasons.
Love and light,
Finn
------------------
"The terra nullius of the Australian mind is alive and well and
nothing other than political leadership and effective community
education is likely to change that." Senator Aden Ridgeway - Speech to the UN, March 2001
[This message has been edited by Finn (edited 06 November 2001).]
It's called the cult of individualism - it's a particularly nasty 'ism! Unfortunately it has captured the hearts and minds of people like yourself... to the detriment of Australia and its people.
It's very easy to sit back and hypothesise from the comfort of one's middle class, white, male existence. Very safe too. I mean, you have the dominant discourse and culture to back you up!
Just know that there are many, many people living in this country who don't feel the way you do. People who's lived experience is nothing like your own. People who's priorities are very different to yours. People who have different values, different beliefs, different cultures.
Unfortunately for these people, their voices have much less chance of being heard.
Why?
Because of something called hegemony.
hegemony
/'heguhmuhnee, 'hej-, huh'gemuhnee/ noun (plural hegemonies )
1. leadership or predominant influence exercised by one state over others.
Have you heard of it? Possibly not. I mean, it's not really important when you're a part of it. It's just the way it is.
Never, ever forget just how privileged you are. Never, ever forget that there are many people who live lives very unlike your own. People who struggle as a matter of course. People for whom an awareness of hegemony is equally unimportant... but for very, very different reasons.
Love and light,
Finn
------------------
"The terra nullius of the Australian mind is alive and well and
nothing other than political leadership and effective community
education is likely to change that." Senator Aden Ridgeway - Speech to the UN, March 2001
[This message has been edited by Finn (edited 06 November 2001).]
Leprechaun
Bluelighter
I have a dream. Well its sort of a dream, an idea really.
My idea is to that voters have to be qualified. Voting requires you to work through perhaps a 6 month course in which you can then move towards a future in politics. We are all thrown into this whirlwind in which only a few are aware of the issues at hand.
I don't want to vote. I want to support the world and demonstrate my values by making music and computer games. I am in no position to judge the value of a politician or his policies based on the representation that they are given by the media. I also have little motivation to devote time to learning about politics as I feel that I cannot express my positive and contructive elements in such a way.
Does anyone else feel this way? Or can you truly say that you can rightfully judge a human being that encompasses what you represent. In essence, isn't this what a leader should be? Or is a leader someone who controls you?
Just something to think about.
[This message has been edited by Leprechaun (edited 06 November 2001).]
My idea is to that voters have to be qualified. Voting requires you to work through perhaps a 6 month course in which you can then move towards a future in politics. We are all thrown into this whirlwind in which only a few are aware of the issues at hand.
I don't want to vote. I want to support the world and demonstrate my values by making music and computer games. I am in no position to judge the value of a politician or his policies based on the representation that they are given by the media. I also have little motivation to devote time to learning about politics as I feel that I cannot express my positive and contructive elements in such a way.
Does anyone else feel this way? Or can you truly say that you can rightfully judge a human being that encompasses what you represent. In essence, isn't this what a leader should be? Or is a leader someone who controls you?
Just something to think about.
[This message has been edited by Leprechaun (edited 06 November 2001).]
ChEmIcaL_NiGhT
Bluelighter
evilduck said:
I quote me
*fuck plur, is all about hardcore arse raping* ;P
Did you even read my post?? Cos i stated the refugees/"illegal immagrants" were NOT and important issue..
I quote me
ANyway, i have had enough, im allowed to look out for number one first.. Call me evil if you like, i have no problem with that.
*fuck plur, is all about hardcore arse raping* ;P
ChEmIcaL_NiGhT
Bluelighter
Oh and on another note. I think we should get to vote for UNION leaders (even when there not in our feild), otherwise how the hell are we going to control who hold the majority of positions of labours front bench.. 90% union leaders if you hadn't noticed.
SupaspeeD
Bluelighter
Vote for the union leaders? Chem, if you are enrolled in a university and are forced to pay guild fees, you are already bankrolling the NSU and the labor party directly. 3% of everyone's funds (at my uni that is 30,000 students at $220 a pop alone) to the NSU, 3% to labor.
Money that could be spent on worthwhile causes? Oh no, lets bankroll a bunch of fuckwit unionists and left wing activists and pay for more face time of Mr Beazley during the election campaign.
I love having my affiliations decided for me, because i choose tertiary education.
Lep - as you said above, its the same here as in America and England - a vote for the lessor of two evils.
Finn - we are ruled by the majority, and whether you like it or not the hegemony will dictate how things work. Being pissed off at the voters for choosing goon politicians or supporting idiotic policies is one thing, but you can't expect to win the race when you're swimming upstream. If everyone took acceptance of everyone else's problems in the world - that would be a great sucess for humanitarianism worldwide.
But do you really want to live in the slum-like conditions of calcutta, or in a situation like pakistan, where afghani refugees are gathering by their millions? Because that's where things are headed if thousands of boatpeople/illegal immigrants/refugees/etc are allowed into the country, we do not have the infrastructure nor the financial means to provide for them without causing a substantial reduction in living quality. If you are willing to accept a lower standard of living, for our generation, our parent's generation and our future children's generations based on your own humanitatrian needs to sleep well at night, by all means go ahead.
The problem is, a majority of australians do not support that position, and will not relinquish the privelidges they have gained as citizens of this country.
Great humanitarian concepts like those espoused above only work in theory - still no-one has provided any solutions to these crises - just a lot of whinging about how badly the liberals, and "the ignorant masses" fuck the 3rd world over. If you are willing to martyr yourself for the cause, go ahead - but once you're past 16, you get a lot less selfless.
Money that could be spent on worthwhile causes? Oh no, lets bankroll a bunch of fuckwit unionists and left wing activists and pay for more face time of Mr Beazley during the election campaign.
I love having my affiliations decided for me, because i choose tertiary education.
Lep - as you said above, its the same here as in America and England - a vote for the lessor of two evils.
Finn - we are ruled by the majority, and whether you like it or not the hegemony will dictate how things work. Being pissed off at the voters for choosing goon politicians or supporting idiotic policies is one thing, but you can't expect to win the race when you're swimming upstream. If everyone took acceptance of everyone else's problems in the world - that would be a great sucess for humanitarianism worldwide.
But do you really want to live in the slum-like conditions of calcutta, or in a situation like pakistan, where afghani refugees are gathering by their millions? Because that's where things are headed if thousands of boatpeople/illegal immigrants/refugees/etc are allowed into the country, we do not have the infrastructure nor the financial means to provide for them without causing a substantial reduction in living quality. If you are willing to accept a lower standard of living, for our generation, our parent's generation and our future children's generations based on your own humanitatrian needs to sleep well at night, by all means go ahead.
The problem is, a majority of australians do not support that position, and will not relinquish the privelidges they have gained as citizens of this country.
Great humanitarian concepts like those espoused above only work in theory - still no-one has provided any solutions to these crises - just a lot of whinging about how badly the liberals, and "the ignorant masses" fuck the 3rd world over. If you are willing to martyr yourself for the cause, go ahead - but once you're past 16, you get a lot less selfless.
ChEmIcaL_NiGhT
Bluelighter
Here here SS.
How bout this, all those people out there who feel the need to help can sacrafice half of THEIR pay check and give it to the needy, rather than making us all pay for your opinions, which other may not aggree with. (actually i think its the majority that do not agree with according to most of the polls taken)
The limit of this is, I do not feel i owe the world or anyone anything simply cause I was born here.
How bout this, all those people out there who feel the need to help can sacrafice half of THEIR pay check and give it to the needy, rather than making us all pay for your opinions, which other may not aggree with. (actually i think its the majority that do not agree with according to most of the polls taken)
The limit of this is, I do not feel i owe the world or anyone anything simply cause I was born here.
De Quincey
Bluelighter
Chem:"Where are the benifits for the anglo Australians or any other race for that matter, who are at or below the poverty line"
yeah there are benefits for other australians living in poverty. the dole, family allowances etc etc. besides, your argument is jumbled... do you want the Government to provide benefits for those in need, or not? IMHO if the government isn't helping out those of its citizens in need, then it's abdicating one of its primary responsibilities. and like it or not, it's a plain truth that a lot of aboriginal communities are disadvantaged BECAUSE of their race. because of the direct effects of colonisation, of taking their land, of taking their children, of destroying their social structures, of the actions of the anglo-australian governments of previous years. i don't have a problem with the government giving help to those in need.
Supa: "But do you really want to live in the slum-like conditions of calcutta, or in a situation like pakistan, where afghani refugees are gathering by their millions? Because that's where things are headed if thousands of boatpeople/illegal immigrants/refugees/etc are allowed into the country, we do not have the infrastructure nor the financial means to provide for them without causing a substantial reduction in living quality."
well, where to begin? do you seriously believe that will happen? that if australia lets a couple of hundred refugees into the country, people who have suffered under the oppression of tyrannical regimes, of religious persecution, crushing poverty in their native countries, that australia will be reduced to a slum state? i would've thought that a thousand boat people would make barely a dent in our population of some 20 million. a drop in the ocean. it would probably cost each australian about $20 a year to support these people. can you honestly not afford to give $20 a year to someone in need? and there is no evidence that letting in some legitimate refugees will result in half the population of afghanistan or india suddenly arriving in the suburbs. rhetoric is NOT evidence.
besides, what is the government doing at the moment? they're not letting them into australia, but they are shifting them off to the islands. then, they are put in facilities built and paid for by Australia, for processing. the same processing could be (and is) done in Australia for less cost, and with less trauma to the refugees. sure, we have to evaluate them all, and there is cost associated with this. but there's cost whether we ship it on to someone else's doorstep, or whether we have the courage to accept our reponsibility, as a rich country, to those less fortunate than ourselves.
as for this "Labor will ruin the economy" guff... i think we all know that the economy has more to do with the private sector than anything the government can influence. especially given how careful any labor government will be to maintain sound economic management following past criticism.
australia is a lucky country, but we're in danger of becoming a bunch of heartless, selfish bastards.
yeah there are benefits for other australians living in poverty. the dole, family allowances etc etc. besides, your argument is jumbled... do you want the Government to provide benefits for those in need, or not? IMHO if the government isn't helping out those of its citizens in need, then it's abdicating one of its primary responsibilities. and like it or not, it's a plain truth that a lot of aboriginal communities are disadvantaged BECAUSE of their race. because of the direct effects of colonisation, of taking their land, of taking their children, of destroying their social structures, of the actions of the anglo-australian governments of previous years. i don't have a problem with the government giving help to those in need.
Supa: "But do you really want to live in the slum-like conditions of calcutta, or in a situation like pakistan, where afghani refugees are gathering by their millions? Because that's where things are headed if thousands of boatpeople/illegal immigrants/refugees/etc are allowed into the country, we do not have the infrastructure nor the financial means to provide for them without causing a substantial reduction in living quality."
well, where to begin? do you seriously believe that will happen? that if australia lets a couple of hundred refugees into the country, people who have suffered under the oppression of tyrannical regimes, of religious persecution, crushing poverty in their native countries, that australia will be reduced to a slum state? i would've thought that a thousand boat people would make barely a dent in our population of some 20 million. a drop in the ocean. it would probably cost each australian about $20 a year to support these people. can you honestly not afford to give $20 a year to someone in need? and there is no evidence that letting in some legitimate refugees will result in half the population of afghanistan or india suddenly arriving in the suburbs. rhetoric is NOT evidence.
besides, what is the government doing at the moment? they're not letting them into australia, but they are shifting them off to the islands. then, they are put in facilities built and paid for by Australia, for processing. the same processing could be (and is) done in Australia for less cost, and with less trauma to the refugees. sure, we have to evaluate them all, and there is cost associated with this. but there's cost whether we ship it on to someone else's doorstep, or whether we have the courage to accept our reponsibility, as a rich country, to those less fortunate than ourselves.
as for this "Labor will ruin the economy" guff... i think we all know that the economy has more to do with the private sector than anything the government can influence. especially given how careful any labor government will be to maintain sound economic management following past criticism.
australia is a lucky country, but we're in danger of becoming a bunch of heartless, selfish bastards.
fat tony
Bluelighter
i choose to not vote for the liberal party as a direct result of their policies toward public education.
i am still only 18. only been out of school for a year now. don't regard myself much of an expert on foreign policy, economic stability nor the environment.
but.. what i know for fucking sure is that private schools have all the money they need. it is impossible to justify the money, taxpayers money, that the libs have given to private schools.
and ive seen some public schools in states of disrepair. hard evidence, to me, that money is needed in this area.
like i said i dont know much about much. but i feel at least partially qualified to exercise my vote based on what i know about the education system in australia.
so i reckon all us younguns who accept that we're a tad underqualified to vote.. i reckon we focus on policy that has a direct relevance on us, and on our younger siblings, and on our parents who may be teachers. EDUCATION.
or if youve been sick and know a bit about hospitals.. HEALTH.
or if all the fish have died in your local creek.. ENVIRONMENT.
tony
------------------
bringing the house down.
i am still only 18. only been out of school for a year now. don't regard myself much of an expert on foreign policy, economic stability nor the environment.
but.. what i know for fucking sure is that private schools have all the money they need. it is impossible to justify the money, taxpayers money, that the libs have given to private schools.
and ive seen some public schools in states of disrepair. hard evidence, to me, that money is needed in this area.
like i said i dont know much about much. but i feel at least partially qualified to exercise my vote based on what i know about the education system in australia.
so i reckon all us younguns who accept that we're a tad underqualified to vote.. i reckon we focus on policy that has a direct relevance on us, and on our younger siblings, and on our parents who may be teachers. EDUCATION.
or if youve been sick and know a bit about hospitals.. HEALTH.
or if all the fish have died in your local creek.. ENVIRONMENT.
tony
------------------
bringing the house down.
ChEmIcaL_NiGhT
Bluelighter
fat tony said:
Do The parents of privately eductated kids not pay tax???
YES THEY DO, in reality they are probably paying for more of your childrens education than you are. So why should there kids miss out??
Everyone has to realise there is always two sides to an argument, and just becuase you think your correct doesn't mean you are correct. Maby you correct relative to you, but thats another story. Parents often sacrafice HUGE amounts to send there kids to private schools, while other parent CHOOSE to live a bit better themselves and send there kids to public schools cause "its good enough" .. Then they complain that its not good enough and private schools get to much.
Of coarse, this is not the only scenario, but it certainly exists.
Tony made a good point here...
[This message has been edited by ChEmIcaL_NiGhT (edited 06 November 2001).]
UM, well I think you'll find that public schools get something like 70% of the funding that the government puts towards education. A large majority.. WHY i ask u.
Do The parents of privately eductated kids not pay tax???
YES THEY DO, in reality they are probably paying for more of your childrens education than you are. So why should there kids miss out??
Everyone has to realise there is always two sides to an argument, and just becuase you think your correct doesn't mean you are correct. Maby you correct relative to you, but thats another story. Parents often sacrafice HUGE amounts to send there kids to private schools, while other parent CHOOSE to live a bit better themselves and send there kids to public schools cause "its good enough" .. Then they complain that its not good enough and private schools get to much.
Of coarse, this is not the only scenario, but it certainly exists.
Tony made a good point here...
Now i know the "boat people" have no relevance to any of us, so why bass an election vote on it. Don't get caught up in the media hype.
[This message has been edited by ChEmIcaL_NiGhT (edited 06 November 2001).]
Mr Horse you stated:
After WW2, nobody apologised to Poland. FUCK, they didn't even give Poland all its land back. Not to mention the countries on the western side of russia. Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, et al. Did the US apologise for not going after Stalin. As a result millions were killed, religions and folklore were banished and communism took full flight.
I don't know where I am actually heading with this, so I'll leave it here. I pretty much just wanted to make the point that saying "SORRY", won't fix squat.
------------------
I felt a cleaving in my mind, as if my mind had split.
I tried to match it seam by seam, but could not make the fit.
The thought behind I strove to join, unto the thought before.
But sequence ravelled out of sound, like balls upon a floor.
Now I am of Ukrainian/Polish origin, do you refer to the Anglo-Saxon race? I personally don't think an apology is in order. They are just words. Actions speak louder than words, and inevitably money speaks louder.
After WW2, nobody apologised to Poland. FUCK, they didn't even give Poland all its land back. Not to mention the countries on the western side of russia. Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, et al. Did the US apologise for not going after Stalin. As a result millions were killed, religions and folklore were banished and communism took full flight.
I don't know where I am actually heading with this, so I'll leave it here. I pretty much just wanted to make the point that saying "SORRY", won't fix squat.
------------------
I felt a cleaving in my mind, as if my mind had split.
I tried to match it seam by seam, but could not make the fit.
The thought behind I strove to join, unto the thought before.
But sequence ravelled out of sound, like balls upon a floor.
De Quincey - thank you for your eminently reasoned and thoughtful comments; it's reassuring to know somebody has an understanding of the larger picture.
With regard to the issue of immigration - there is nothing quite as demoralizing as seeing the kind of abject political opportunism we have recently, casting its spell over this country. To have a relatively small number of refugees (some 4000) be used as the political pawns in an election campaign that may very well be the most significant in Australia's history, is saddening indeed.
For the Federal government to send troops to stop a leaky boat only 2 months away from an election (when numerous such boats had passed unhindered prior to that time), was a disgusting example of populism. The fact that the majority of Australians could not appreciate this act for what it was - a cynical and calculating ploy by a desperate government - is a sad indictment on our nation. The international community was appalled, and continues to be so. How dare Australia abrogate its international obligations, and turn away refugees when our current quota is not even being met! The arrogance of this attitude is breathtaking. It is isolationism at its worst, and smacks of a return to the White Australia policy; a dark reminder of our exceptionally racist past.
Across the country, otherwise conservative commentators/politicians are strident in their condemnation of this "policy". Malcom Fraser, Fred Chaney, John Hewson. Hewson has noted that John Howard is appealing to people's latent racist and xenophobic tendencies, which at a time like this, is one of the most dangerous things any "strong leader" could possibly do. That the Labor party unreservedly supports this action is deplorable - the joys of a two-party system.
Australia, as others have noted, is built on the back of refugees. Our reputation (up until this time) had been one of a friendly, compassionate people, with a thriving multi-cultural society. That perception is now irreparably damaged, and we have only our fear and ignorance to thank for it.
Public education in ruins, our environment in a precarious state, ever-increasing poverty, a collapsing health-care system, tax-breaks for the rich, contempt for students, single-mothers, the unemployed, the underemployed, the poor, the disadvantaged, the needy. It has been said that the best way to judge a nation is by the way it treats its most vulnerable - and on every account, we're failing miserably. I thank my lucky stars every day that I have a warm home, and food to eat - but what about those who don't? And those who run from persecution and deprivation of such a magnitiude, that most of us can barely imagine it? Every day, those who ponder on these things are accused on talk-back radio of being "bleeding hearts".
Well, I'd rather be a bleeding heart than cold-hearted.
With regard to the issue of immigration - there is nothing quite as demoralizing as seeing the kind of abject political opportunism we have recently, casting its spell over this country. To have a relatively small number of refugees (some 4000) be used as the political pawns in an election campaign that may very well be the most significant in Australia's history, is saddening indeed.
For the Federal government to send troops to stop a leaky boat only 2 months away from an election (when numerous such boats had passed unhindered prior to that time), was a disgusting example of populism. The fact that the majority of Australians could not appreciate this act for what it was - a cynical and calculating ploy by a desperate government - is a sad indictment on our nation. The international community was appalled, and continues to be so. How dare Australia abrogate its international obligations, and turn away refugees when our current quota is not even being met! The arrogance of this attitude is breathtaking. It is isolationism at its worst, and smacks of a return to the White Australia policy; a dark reminder of our exceptionally racist past.
Across the country, otherwise conservative commentators/politicians are strident in their condemnation of this "policy". Malcom Fraser, Fred Chaney, John Hewson. Hewson has noted that John Howard is appealing to people's latent racist and xenophobic tendencies, which at a time like this, is one of the most dangerous things any "strong leader" could possibly do. That the Labor party unreservedly supports this action is deplorable - the joys of a two-party system.
Australia, as others have noted, is built on the back of refugees. Our reputation (up until this time) had been one of a friendly, compassionate people, with a thriving multi-cultural society. That perception is now irreparably damaged, and we have only our fear and ignorance to thank for it.
Public education in ruins, our environment in a precarious state, ever-increasing poverty, a collapsing health-care system, tax-breaks for the rich, contempt for students, single-mothers, the unemployed, the underemployed, the poor, the disadvantaged, the needy. It has been said that the best way to judge a nation is by the way it treats its most vulnerable - and on every account, we're failing miserably. I thank my lucky stars every day that I have a warm home, and food to eat - but what about those who don't? And those who run from persecution and deprivation of such a magnitiude, that most of us can barely imagine it? Every day, those who ponder on these things are accused on talk-back radio of being "bleeding hearts".
Well, I'd rather be a bleeding heart than cold-hearted.
ChEmIcaL_NiGhT
Bluelighter
sneak2 said
I always like when people say this.. Tax breaks for the rich.. SHHHHAA right..
The "rich" pay close to 50% of there wages in tax, while the "poor" pay maby 18% , or less. How is it that the rich are getting "tax breaks"... Maby its just the smart??
This has nothing to do with color, race or religion. It has to do with people coming over who have NOTHING to offer this coutry and will just be a burden on the tax payers pocket. Same go for and "white" boat people that head this way.
No need to take such a pesimistic veiw on the country.. It is in the best state it has been in decades. I think your been a little over the top.
I always like when people say this.. Tax breaks for the rich.. SHHHHAA right..
The "rich" pay close to 50% of there wages in tax, while the "poor" pay maby 18% , or less. How is it that the rich are getting "tax breaks"... Maby its just the smart??
My parents are immigrants who have been in Australia for around 28 years now. They came to this country with nothing, and have built themselves up through sheer hard work to where they are now. They were forced to pass all sorts of tests to enter in to this country. I have seen how these people live when I go back to my parent’s countries. I have lived in the small shack that my relatives call home. Yet, I am angered as with my parents when I see immigrant individuals who come to this country and wreck it. My own mother is now scared of entering certain parts of Melbourne alone because of the problems she has encountered. She’s scared of the violence, the threats, the drugs, the people and she has no right to be scared! Now, this is a major generalisation here but these areas are mainly filled with high ‘immigrant/refugee’ type people.
How many of you here know what it is truly like to be extorted. How many of you here know what it is like to have to pay your HARD EARNED money so that your business is NOT harmed. I think if I bring a gang of youths around to your parents house and threaten them with violence unless they paid me money.. I think you’ll have a different view of things. But then again I may be a stupid immigrant talking.
What would you like the current government to do? The world is entering another global recession and because of that Australia, in my most humble opinion, should make a stand on world issues. I really do feel sorry for the refugees. However, I feel more sorry for the thousands of Aboriginals, drug addicts, unemployed, abused children and wives who are being slowly screwed over because humanitarians feel that we should be spending more money on outside issues instead of cleaning up our own ‘backyard’.
I know all of you will raise arguments that other countries throughout the world take in more refugees than Australia does. Yes, I accept that. I would personally rather have a country where we trained the youths who are already here. It’s embarrassing to see how many children cannot properly read/write/spell. I don’t feel happy about this, but that is the plain truth. I also believe that the media twist and turn their words to suit their own needs. We can not see the refugees when they enter. I have heard, be it rumour or truth, that some of the refugees caught have thousands of dollars stitched into their clothes. Some have some amounts of jewellery and gold. I ask you, how could a refugee from a war strewn 3rd world country, possibly have these items.
We talk about how we should be feeling sorry for the past generations. However, an argument you have raised is that Australia is built upon immigrants. Now, how many immigrant families have actually had a say in Australia’s past. How many refugees actually took part in the stolen generations saga. Not many I would say. I don’t think these families should be penalised for what the white Anglo-Saxon Australia did. Why should our taxes, be used to make fix things we did not take part in.
I’m not saying Liberal or Labour is the best. I’m not going to even tell you who I will be voting for. I’m just saying that there are many things that go on in our country that we don’t know anything about. We see what the media shows us. I’m quite proud to know that you guys – you bluelighters – have such noble thoughts and views. I don’t think ‘white Australia’ would have had such views 30 or so years ago. I think we are heading in the right direction.. but there are so many people in the world who are out to gain. Who are out to take advantage of kind hearted people. I think our country would be morally more just and right but the consequences would be harsh. Are we all prepared to accept that?
Please remember, you are in a lucky country. Most of you are white and have not had to struggle or see what it is like to suffer and be without. That's what makes you an easy target. You are not prepared to do things which other, less fortunate, people are willing to do. Would you kill for a piece of food? In many countries people do and if they manage to get to Australia they do things which we cannot believe. Why? Not because they are bad or evil but because they have seen what it is like to be without.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
*waves*
How many of you here know what it is truly like to be extorted. How many of you here know what it is like to have to pay your HARD EARNED money so that your business is NOT harmed. I think if I bring a gang of youths around to your parents house and threaten them with violence unless they paid me money.. I think you’ll have a different view of things. But then again I may be a stupid immigrant talking.
What would you like the current government to do? The world is entering another global recession and because of that Australia, in my most humble opinion, should make a stand on world issues. I really do feel sorry for the refugees. However, I feel more sorry for the thousands of Aboriginals, drug addicts, unemployed, abused children and wives who are being slowly screwed over because humanitarians feel that we should be spending more money on outside issues instead of cleaning up our own ‘backyard’.
I know all of you will raise arguments that other countries throughout the world take in more refugees than Australia does. Yes, I accept that. I would personally rather have a country where we trained the youths who are already here. It’s embarrassing to see how many children cannot properly read/write/spell. I don’t feel happy about this, but that is the plain truth. I also believe that the media twist and turn their words to suit their own needs. We can not see the refugees when they enter. I have heard, be it rumour or truth, that some of the refugees caught have thousands of dollars stitched into their clothes. Some have some amounts of jewellery and gold. I ask you, how could a refugee from a war strewn 3rd world country, possibly have these items.
We talk about how we should be feeling sorry for the past generations. However, an argument you have raised is that Australia is built upon immigrants. Now, how many immigrant families have actually had a say in Australia’s past. How many refugees actually took part in the stolen generations saga. Not many I would say. I don’t think these families should be penalised for what the white Anglo-Saxon Australia did. Why should our taxes, be used to make fix things we did not take part in.
I’m not saying Liberal or Labour is the best. I’m not going to even tell you who I will be voting for. I’m just saying that there are many things that go on in our country that we don’t know anything about. We see what the media shows us. I’m quite proud to know that you guys – you bluelighters – have such noble thoughts and views. I don’t think ‘white Australia’ would have had such views 30 or so years ago. I think we are heading in the right direction.. but there are so many people in the world who are out to gain. Who are out to take advantage of kind hearted people. I think our country would be morally more just and right but the consequences would be harsh. Are we all prepared to accept that?
Please remember, you are in a lucky country. Most of you are white and have not had to struggle or see what it is like to suffer and be without. That's what makes you an easy target. You are not prepared to do things which other, less fortunate, people are willing to do. Would you kill for a piece of food? In many countries people do and if they manage to get to Australia they do things which we cannot believe. Why? Not because they are bad or evil but because they have seen what it is like to be without.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
*waves*
ghetts
Bluelighter
Great thread people.
In reply to some of chemical_night’s assertions…
QUOTE: “And if you didn't know it, aboriginees (even 1 / 16th) aboriginees already get benifits over the normal Autralian citizen. I also regard this as unfair. Where are the benifits for the anglo Australians or any other race for that matter, who are at or below the poverty line”
Putting aside the problems with defining people as ‘1/16th’ or more offensively, ‘half castes’, for most of the 1990’s the amount of welfare, health care and education support provided specifically for Aboriginals did not amount to much more than 1.5% of total budget outlays, a level proportionate to the 1.5% of the population that Aborigines represent. (Watts 1999 citing 1998 ABS data).
Given that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders as a population have significantly lower levels of access to formal schooling (citing transport, finance and child care as the main obstacles), reduced employment opportunities, far higher rates of poverty, a higher incidence of psychological impairments etc etc, perhaps the question should be, are we spending enough? To talk of Aborigninals ‘getting benefits over the ‘normal’ (interesting word, that) Australian citizen is silly. Would any ‘normal’ white Australian citizen want to trade circumstances?
(When you say ‘Fair’ here, but do you mean ‘equal’, or ‘equitable’? If you judge a nation by how well it treats its most disadvantaged, equity seems to me to be the important one here.)
My main issue though is with this one,
QUOTE: “Yeah but if this all goes down now, it will not be them paying the majority of the compensation. It will be us, and as i have stated I will be held accountable for my own actions, not those of anyone else, including my parents.”
Re: compensation, and it’s a fair point. The way I’m inclined to see things is that the commonwealth government is there to govern for *all* Australians, not just ‘White Anglo Saxon Protestants’ or ‘Dead White Males’. In the instances where the commonwealth has defended itself against individual cases of child removal (ie. The claims of Lorna Cubillo and Peter Gunner), the government has taken to using quite a heavy hand, and putting it lightly calling on a pretty tenuous reading of history. From Manne: Commonwealth responsibilities ought to extend WELL beyond concern for the public purse (ie human rights etc). Taxpayers are also citizens. Citizens have a right to expect from their government not only fiscal prudence but also some corncern for racial justice and historical truth.
Shit I’ve crapped on for way too long. Anyway the most important thing we should do is to keep thinking.
------------------
"...Clevinger was dead. That was the major flaw in his philosophy..."
In reply to some of chemical_night’s assertions…
QUOTE: “And if you didn't know it, aboriginees (even 1 / 16th) aboriginees already get benifits over the normal Autralian citizen. I also regard this as unfair. Where are the benifits for the anglo Australians or any other race for that matter, who are at or below the poverty line”
Putting aside the problems with defining people as ‘1/16th’ or more offensively, ‘half castes’, for most of the 1990’s the amount of welfare, health care and education support provided specifically for Aboriginals did not amount to much more than 1.5% of total budget outlays, a level proportionate to the 1.5% of the population that Aborigines represent. (Watts 1999 citing 1998 ABS data).
Given that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders as a population have significantly lower levels of access to formal schooling (citing transport, finance and child care as the main obstacles), reduced employment opportunities, far higher rates of poverty, a higher incidence of psychological impairments etc etc, perhaps the question should be, are we spending enough? To talk of Aborigninals ‘getting benefits over the ‘normal’ (interesting word, that) Australian citizen is silly. Would any ‘normal’ white Australian citizen want to trade circumstances?
(When you say ‘Fair’ here, but do you mean ‘equal’, or ‘equitable’? If you judge a nation by how well it treats its most disadvantaged, equity seems to me to be the important one here.)
My main issue though is with this one,
QUOTE: “Yeah but if this all goes down now, it will not be them paying the majority of the compensation. It will be us, and as i have stated I will be held accountable for my own actions, not those of anyone else, including my parents.”
Re: compensation, and it’s a fair point. The way I’m inclined to see things is that the commonwealth government is there to govern for *all* Australians, not just ‘White Anglo Saxon Protestants’ or ‘Dead White Males’. In the instances where the commonwealth has defended itself against individual cases of child removal (ie. The claims of Lorna Cubillo and Peter Gunner), the government has taken to using quite a heavy hand, and putting it lightly calling on a pretty tenuous reading of history. From Manne: Commonwealth responsibilities ought to extend WELL beyond concern for the public purse (ie human rights etc). Taxpayers are also citizens. Citizens have a right to expect from their government not only fiscal prudence but also some corncern for racial justice and historical truth.
Shit I’ve crapped on for way too long. Anyway the most important thing we should do is to keep thinking.
------------------
"...Clevinger was dead. That was the major flaw in his philosophy..."
josh_nexus
Bluelighter
Just a note on the public/private schools thing. While public schools receive the overall majority of funding it is important to remember that private schools goverment funding exceed by up to 2/3rds that of their public counterparts when per capita funding is taken into account.
-Thoth
Bluelight Crew
Ok... I have been observing this thread without replying for some time, basically because the whole political justification thing grates on me, it seems its all I do these days. Anyway, I am a long student of politics, and I kinda already new what the opinions of what people would post here had their roots in would comprise of... Anyway:
I am a moderate left winger. Might as well get it out in the open!
I support efforts at Aborigional reconcilliation, and a national apology. However, not as a guesture, but as a real commitment. Personally, just an apology (from either side of politics) I believe is hollow considering the current condition and treatment of our indignous communities. There has to be some realistic contributions to ensuring the future of one of the worlds oldest cultures (study some ancient history and it reveales some amazing facts... The aborigionals arrived on this continent some millenia before seagoing vessels were ever believed to be developed, how did they get here? How did they adapt to every contidion on this continent, blah, blah). Anyway, with regards to Chem Night, in that this generation had nothing to do with the stolen generation or massacre atrocities is true. However, we all benefit from an anglo-centric society that WOULD NOT be here unless some people commited some pretty horrible deeds. So, by our very existance here, we are benefiting from the sins commited by those who conquered this place before us... I really believe that must be acknoweleged, and I support a treaty with this land's traditional owners.
I like to think the government plays a role in producing conditons conducive to social equality. Labour seems to trumpet this goal, but yes, it is the lesser of two evils for me...
With regards to SupaSpeeds comments, that the govenment represents a majoritarian view.... Well, crap! A liberal democracy is steeped in the ideals of providing accountable representatives once every three years. In three years alot happens, and since I cant vote, I fall back on the largest form of political participation there is... The interest group, who protests in the view of changing govt. policy.
Also, the compulsory student amenities fees? Well,they dont just fund sectional left wing initiaves, because anyone can get involved with the NUS (National Union of Students). Heard of Student Unity? They represent the liberal/labor right ('cos lets be realistic, they are one and the same
) and control nearly 30-35% percent of the floor as a bloc at any NUS national meeting. I speak from experience as a student politics hack myself
Fact is, that often high ranking office bearers of any NUS board are liberal sympathisers... Shit, PETER COSTELLO was elected to NUS by virtue of the right vote... So quit towing the line that student politcs is all about the vocal left, because it aint, and if you have some beef, stand yourself! The amenites fee funds some quite worthwhile servieces around your campus (it funds my student welfare servace, campus newspaper, radiostation, clubs and societies, live music etc... Uni would be fucken boring under the libs VSU...
I am a moderate left winger. Might as well get it out in the open!
I support efforts at Aborigional reconcilliation, and a national apology. However, not as a guesture, but as a real commitment. Personally, just an apology (from either side of politics) I believe is hollow considering the current condition and treatment of our indignous communities. There has to be some realistic contributions to ensuring the future of one of the worlds oldest cultures (study some ancient history and it reveales some amazing facts... The aborigionals arrived on this continent some millenia before seagoing vessels were ever believed to be developed, how did they get here? How did they adapt to every contidion on this continent, blah, blah). Anyway, with regards to Chem Night, in that this generation had nothing to do with the stolen generation or massacre atrocities is true. However, we all benefit from an anglo-centric society that WOULD NOT be here unless some people commited some pretty horrible deeds. So, by our very existance here, we are benefiting from the sins commited by those who conquered this place before us... I really believe that must be acknoweleged, and I support a treaty with this land's traditional owners.
I like to think the government plays a role in producing conditons conducive to social equality. Labour seems to trumpet this goal, but yes, it is the lesser of two evils for me...
With regards to SupaSpeeds comments, that the govenment represents a majoritarian view.... Well, crap! A liberal democracy is steeped in the ideals of providing accountable representatives once every three years. In three years alot happens, and since I cant vote, I fall back on the largest form of political participation there is... The interest group, who protests in the view of changing govt. policy.
Also, the compulsory student amenities fees? Well,they dont just fund sectional left wing initiaves, because anyone can get involved with the NUS (National Union of Students). Heard of Student Unity? They represent the liberal/labor right ('cos lets be realistic, they are one and the same
randomblondeboy
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2000
- Messages
- 1,632
well...i was just about to write what thoth said, but he beat me to it
just joking boi...i like your words, i always have. i stay out of student politics cos i'm at rmit and student politics is boring here, so everything in your post up to that point...i applaud
just joking boi...i like your words, i always have. i stay out of student politics cos i'm at rmit and student politics is boring here, so everything in your post up to that point...i applaud
Finn
Bluelighter
LOL Thoth
I was thinking exactly the same thing about who would reply to this thread and what their political leanings would be!
DQ. Once again... Yeah baby!
And
Yossarian... so true. Beautifully said.
Finn (the quiet observer)
------------------
"The terra nullius of the Australian mind is alive and well and
nothing other than political leadership and effective community
education is likely to change that." Senator Aden Ridgeway - Speech to the UN, March 2001
I was thinking exactly the same thing about who would reply to this thread and what their political leanings would be!
DQ. Once again... Yeah baby!
And
Yossarian... so true. Beautifully said.
Finn (the quiet observer)
------------------
"The terra nullius of the Australian mind is alive and well and
nothing other than political leadership and effective community
education is likely to change that." Senator Aden Ridgeway - Speech to the UN, March 2001