The MA heroin thread

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^^^

Yeah agreed. Flat out saying "just wait 12 hours" is nuts. That may work for you personally, but a ton of people will have to wait much longer and if they take that advice, they're going to be in for a world of hurt. You need to wait until you are in full withdrawal, whenever that is for you. Even then, if you're coming off a large habit and have switched many times back and forth to bupe, you'll still have a 2-3 day transition of feeling like shit before the bupe really starts to work.

Everyones body is different, their using histories and habits are different, and bupe is a very complex drug in itself.. that is why making blanket statements like that about it are not a good idea.
 
How's that a blanket statement? I'm shooting 2-3G a day and waiting 12 hours then. All depends where tolerance is and I thought I remember her mentioning low dosage. I've known subs for a long time now, so I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about. I also attend sub meetings/clinic. So, again, I have an idea.
 
The best bet with Subs is wait until you can't bear it whatsoever. Like you would inject heroin into your eyeball if it was the only option because you are feeling so sick. Its the only way to guarantee you won't get precipitated withdrawal. With heroin 24 is typically the point where the vast majority of people will be good to take it, like >95% probably are fine at that point, but there are those few who can wait that long and still get the precip w/d. At 12 hours its playing with fire. You have to know yourself and how long it takes you to get to moderate to severe w/d. But even then the first time using Subs I would wait as long as possible and try hard to get to 24 hours.
 
^Absolutely, anyone who thinks otherwise should check out the hundreds of suboxone threads on here, starting pretty much from the time it was released as a prescription drug...In fact, there's probably European threads about how and when to take bupe that pre-date the existence of "Suboxone"...from a time period when most of the heroin users on here were in elementary school or younger....
 
BostonBrownTown said:
How's that a blanket statement? I'm shooting 2-3G a day and waiting 12 hours then. All depends where tolerance is and I thought I remember her mentioning low dosage. I've known subs for a long time now, so I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about. I also attend sub meetings/clinic. So, again, I have an idea.
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It's not just about tolerance. Two people with the exact same size habit could end up having to take suboxone at very different times. Some people metabolize slowly and do not go into withdrawals for over 24 hours.. those people thus need to wait much longer then 12 hours.

She could very well have to only wait 12 hours.. but the point is it's not the time that matters, it's the level of withdrawal.
 
BostonBrownTown said:
How's that a blanket statement? I'm shooting 2-3G a day and waiting 12 hours then. All depends where tolerance is and I thought I remember her mentioning low dosage. I've known subs for a long time now, so I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about. I also attend sub meetings/clinic. So, again, I have an idea.
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It seemed like a blanket statement because I thought you were saying that 12 hours is good for everybody, but even though you were taking her tolerance into consideration that's not the only factor.

Anyway I've got to ask, how effective were the subs for you with a 2-3G a day habit? Even with a half G a day habit I still felt sick the first few days on them, one days 2-3 I still wouldn't start to feel any real positive effects (other than just not getting sick) and then I would stabilize with a slight mood life somewhere around 4-5 days into it. idk, I just don't see going from that amount of dope to subs 12 hours later and them working at all. That's the other reason I say to wait longer, because the longer you wait the better the subs work. I don't have to wait the amount of days I said above to feel positive effects from subs if I wait a good 36 hours to dose it. I'll feel a mood lift right away, and the whole sub experience is better then.
 
when blasting away, 2-3G a day, shooting 1.5 or so a blast, I was not using subs at my worst. towards the end of my cycle, still heavily involved but money has been drained, is where SUBS came into play. I started subs just to hold off until the money came around. I'd get high at 8PM and wake up the next morning for work and take a low dosage subox just to hold off any withdrawal and see the reaction. from there it all depended on what the next step was. if nothing was in the near future, I would take more subox; anything from 2-4MG at a time. this is playing the game while using. so many play this different and SAY or PRETEND to feel things that are not there; it's what others put in the head when it comes to pure withdrawal. a lot of people just go through the mental withdrawal and it leads them to believing the physical is worse than it actually may be. I've been in this game way too long and have seen way too much.

when YOURE READY TO STOP, that's when the sub dosage is KEY. thats when you are BEST TO GO TO A CLINIC and have them treat you. go through your typical detox and then start your sub dosage. always AIM HIGH when it first starts just so you feel your best and can gradually lessen the dosage in time. I was shooting 2-3G's a day and started at 16/MG (was offered 24mg/day but passed) a day of subs. I still take anywhere between 8-16MG/daily but all depends on the feeling itself. my doc and I have it set-up so I am the one calling the shots on dosage. I am looking to drop to 8MG/day over the next 2 months or so.

yes, it's always different in EACH and EVERY person, I understand. but even IN THE HOSPITAL, whether it's a MENTAL or HEALTH institute, they will prescribe the subox between the 12-24hr mark. I've been through both, trust me. it took me a while to get clean until the day finally come and I truly had enough. I think the day hits people and their eyes finally OPEN and see the world. I went down this road before and subox lead to 6 years sobriety before FUCKING UP BAD and leading a life of hell over the past 3 years and deciding enough is enough and coming clean once again. the 6 years sobriety only involved subs for the first 6-12 months. 5 years were no drugs other than alcohol and weed on a weekly, or monthly basis.
 
In a medical detox setting, they'll dose you based on your WD symptoms based on the COWS scale...If it's a detox that uses methadone, they'll usually give it to you whenever you complain that you're "sick" without really checking for symptoms...I've known of people who checked into detox just to get 30-40mgs of methadone...

These days with suboxone, they're a lot stricter about when they dose you....They check the size of your pupils, take your blood pressure, look for a runny nose etc...

If I use enough heroin to get high, I don't really start feeling WDs until the 18-20 hour mark...Between the 20-24 hour mark the WDs start to become more intense...By 30-36 hours I'm in severe WDs...

Despite that, I used to be able to dose Suboxone 12 hours after I used, before I even felt any WD symptoms, without being sent into PWDs....Now. even if I'm in full-blown WDs, it won't really work for 2-3 days, but once the Suboxone starts working, I can immediately use 4mgs a day without ever getting sick....

I currently take 1.5mgs twice a day, dosing every 12 hours or so...On some days I'll dose every 8 hours...

I just dosed 1.5 mgs about 45 minutes ago, I feel a slight little glow, but that's about it...If I were to dose 8mgs at once, I'd probably have the same feeling for the same amount of time but just feel more lethargic and not want to dose for 24 hours...by taking the lower dose more frequently, I feel the bupe more and I feel like I have more energy throughout the day....

When I was on high-dose methadone I felt a slightly stronger glow for the first few hours after I took it, but unless I was working I always felt like I wanted to go back to bed, which is why I ended up getting into smoking cocaine for the first time on methadone...
 
I was under the assumption that if you took subs while you had dope in your system it would lead to precip withdrawals...but this friend of mine would take them whenever...8, 12 or more hours after using and he never had any problems with w/d. I thought the subs had naloxone in them to cause precipitated withdrawals, but the strips i have seen lately I'm guessing didn't have it...so confusing 8(
 
^^^

It is the bupe itself that causes PW's, not naloxone.

As for it causing PW's when on other opiates, that will only happen if one is psychically dependent on opiates.. if they aren't, then it doesn't matter if they take suboxone while on them or not.
 
This guy's my runnin and gunnin buddy, we're both hardcore IV dopers who do as much as we can afford every day...he takes subs regularly when funds for the happy powder are not available or our connects have shit dope (like right now). I only take it if I really have to cause it always happens that I do some then dope comes my way and you're afraid the sub's gonna mess up your high(the initial rush is what I look for). I happen to have done half a strip this morn @ 5:30 and it's doin nuthin...nose is still runnin' and I've had to stick close to the bathroom ykwim...:p
 
BlueHues said:
Was it endocarditis? Shit, glad you're okay man!
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Thanks man! Unfortunately yes it was endocarditis. I had a bacterial 'vegetation' on one of my valves. The really shitty attribute of my particular case was that the infected valve was 'flicking' of pieces of the vegetation into my lungs where they became pulmonary emboli which were very painful. My doctors eventually determined that every time a piece would flick off my valve I would get an intense fever with rigors (uncontrollable shaking).

Zerrr said:
Glad you're okay. It's one thing that always scared the shit out of me.

Did this start from an abscess? MRSA, staph,?
Was it considered sepsis?
It does sound like subacute endo (infective endocarditis) but that effects the heart ofc. Can lead to pulmonary embolism, the bacteria colonize then break off and travel through the bloodstream.
Id be interested in hearing about the early symptoms.
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Thanks for showing interest man. It always scared the shit out of me too, but I foolishly believed that infection wouldn't happen to me cause I tried to follow good HR techniques. Anyway, to answer your questions; No, my case did not start as an abcess and I don't believe it was ever considered to be sepsis. Your 100% on the money about it sounding like infective endocarditis. Also if you read my response to BlueHues' quote above then you'd also know that you were also right about the bacteria breaking off my valve and traveling to my lung to cause those painful emboli that I was was getting hydromorphone and a long course of antibiotics to treat.

Early symptoms included fluctuating fever (highs temps reaching up to 104 some nights) that did not go away after a whole week of treating with NSAIDS. Also I've never produced so much sweat before during the night; In other words I had TERRIBLE/UNBEARABLE night sweats where anything my body touched would be literally soaked. The sweats one of the most uncomfotable experiences I've ever gone through. The last main symptom I had was the really sharp lung pain I experienced when taking in breaths and sometimes not taking in any air.

BostonBrownTown said:
Just saw this.. oh wow, man.. that sucks! At least you got to the hospital and all was taken care of. Things could always be worse, realize that. Also, it's best you do get on that sub program. It's helped me tremendously. I was at MGH for detox and other reasons and started their sub program there as well; it has helped alot since. I actually am going to West End Clinic today to see my Dr. just a quick appointent to show him all is well and I am doing just fine. ill also prob do a urine.
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Yeah man, I'm just really thankful I trusted my instinct and decided to go to the hospital after giving the symptoms ample time to work themselves out. Things could have turned out much worse if I had waited much longer and I could still be sitting in the hospital right now with a pigs heart valve or a mechanical one.

Also I'm really looking forward to seeing how things work out with the sub maintenance program.

That's crazy about MGH though cause that's where I went to be treated before being sent to Shattuck Hospital in Jamaica Plain when MGH determined I was stable after 2.5 weeks. I'm also set up to go to the West End Clinic next week man, but for outpatient services and not for subs cause I actually just got my first sub script yesterday from a place in Stoneham (Not sure if thats too specific, sorry in advance mods if it is) which was an experience in itself from the types of people I ram into in the waiting room. But that's a different story for a different post %)
 
^That's always been my worst fear...endocarditis...How long were you admitted to the hospital? were you chained to an IV and unable to leave for weeks? I'm pretty sure that's how it works with that...
 
Here's a weird question about sub transition. Ok, so say you have a habit and you're waiting take your first dose (lets say 8mg). Now, you've taken it and you still feel like shit, but the bupe is in your system. When this happened to me I shot dope not too long after and I didnt get a rush but I was withdrawal free. In theory, is it possible to cheat it by taking sub, then shooting up to clear up the rest of withdrawal and then just take your subs as needed?
 
^Yeah you came across the same thing I did...If you take the sub, still feel shitty but then shoot dope on top of that...Yeah, the sub blocks the high but the dope takes away the shittiness...If you do this the first few days during the transition and keep taking the sub, it actually works...It's a hard way to go though, because it makes you wanna do more dope, stop taking the Subs...etc
 
Mzral said:
Here's a weird question about sub transition. Ok, so say you have a habit and you're waiting take your first dose (lets say 8mg). Now, you've taken it and you still feel like shit, but the bupe is in your system. When this happened to me I shot dope not too long after and I didnt get a rush but I was withdrawal free. In theory, is it possible to cheat it by taking sub, then shooting up to clear up the rest of withdrawal and then just take your subs as needed?
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This has worked for me in the past, but only if you do it correctly and don't go overboard with the dope. There has to be a significant amount of bupe in your system and only a little tiny bit of dope to take the withdrawals away. If you do too much dope and don't have enough bupe, when the dope where off and you are sick, the bupe won't work.
 
damn bruhh i didnt know u were in there from IV probs...sketches me out a bit if u know what i mean..

anyways im on day 6 of sub today..first 3 days are horrible..suicide is always contemplated just cuz the paws are so intense for me..i was on a 1.5g/day habit..my dude just told me he had fire so im fiendin hard now but im gonna try to wait till my UA on tuesday with probo..also does anybody know the medical mmj rules here with probo..can i possess a card and smoke while on probo..i need something else than these xanies and subs to get me thru the next handfull of months if im gonna quit dope for good

im on 16mg a day with the subs and i cant seem to get my motivation back still..do i need some ssri's or what? it seems like depression from paws but im not sure..




Effect said:
Thanks man! Unfortunately yes it was endocarditis. I had a bacterial 'vegetation' on one of my valves. The really shitty attribute of my particular case was that the infected valve was 'flicking' of pieces of the vegetation into my lungs where they became pulmonary emboli which were very painful. My doctors eventually determined that every time a piece would flick off my valve I would get an intense fever with rigors (uncontrollable shaking).



Thanks for showing interest man. It always scared the shit out of me too, but I foolishly believed that infection wouldn't happen to me cause I tried to follow good HR techniques. Anyway, to answer your questions; No, my case did not start as an abcess and I don't believe it was ever considered to be sepsis. Your 100% on the money about it sounding like infective endocarditis. Also if you read my response to BlueHues' quote above then you'd also know that you were also right about the bacteria breaking off my valve and traveling to my lung to cause those painful emboli that I was was getting hydromorphone and a long course of antibiotics to treat.

Early symptoms included fluctuating fever (highs temps reaching up to 104 some nights) that did not go away after a whole week of treating with NSAIDS. Also I've never produced so much sweat before during the night; In other words I had TERRIBLE/UNBEARABLE night sweats where anything my body touched would be literally soaked. The sweats one of the most uncomfotable experiences I've ever gone through. The last main symptom I had was the really sharp lung pain I experienced when taking in breaths and sometimes not taking in any air.



Yeah man, I'm just really thankful I trusted my instinct and decided to go to the hospital after giving the symptoms ample time to work themselves out. Things could have turned out much worse if I had waited much longer and I could still be sitting in the hospital right now with a pigs heart valve or a mechanical one.

Also I'm really looking forward to seeing how things work out with the sub maintenance program.

That's crazy about MGH though cause that's where I went to be treated before being sent to Shattuck Hospital in Jamaica Plain when MGH determined I was stable after 2.5 weeks. I'm also set up to go to the West End Clinic next week man, but for outpatient services and not for subs cause I actually just got my first sub script yesterday from a place in Stoneham (Not sure if thats too specific, sorry in advance mods if it is) which was an experience in itself from the types of people I ram into in the waiting room. But that's a different story for a different post %)
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sub transition is such a bitch honestly..fuck partial agonist..i neeed that FULLL to sit in my receptor..i feel it works like this..say u have 10 opiate receptors..first day the bupe only sits in 6-7 of them..day 2=8, and day 3 the bupe sits in all 10..i feel like thats how it works..not sure tho..the transition is such a bitch tho..and sticking those shitty orange chemical ass tastin strips under your tongue when your sick isnt pleasing one bit.
 
Got CWOF, another hearing in February, where they'll check up on my drug counseling and sub maintenance. I take my first sub on Tuesday, so last night, I went on a major dope binge. I've still got one bag left, debating when to shoot it. Was nearly falling down at my BF's place. He and his brother had a 5 mg oxy that they'd cut up into lines and offered to share with me. LOL
I stayed up all night, and now I'm "seeing things" in my attempts to sleep. I keep turning to people who I realize aren't there while I'm awake. Lack of sleep is a high in and of itself. Tonight, I'm going to sit down with my folks and talk about all of this. So much is jumbled in my brain.
 
^why don't you at least take a nap before you talk with your rents so you're somewhat clear headed? And congrats on not getting locked up or any bullshit like that at court.
 
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