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The LSAT Mega-Thread

I agree that they don't require creativity and depth. But they don't require the ability to handle a large volume of information either.

What they do require is an ability to quickly see and analyze logical relationships between a relatively small number of items. It's a very narrow test.
 
But they don't require the ability to handle a large volume of information either

Alice, Bob, Carl...and Zach are to give each of their 26 dissertations over the course of a month. The order in which they present is to follow these rules.

Bob must not present on a Monday UNLESS Alice and Carl both present on NONCONSECUTIVE Tuesdays

Eddie must present BEFORE Francis, if and only if Zach presents AFTER Lenny...UNLESS Wendy presents BEFORE Susan...in which case, the whole thing is ass-backwards

...yada yada yada...

You have 10 minutes...GO!

^This is what I'm talking about. All the details in those "game" problems really bogg me down. Now, if I had 30 minutes to do each problem, I would have no problems.
 
That's just where the practice comes in. On the logic games you'll have maybe 7 to 10 entities at the very most, and you'll probably have to order them in some manner in an equivalent number of slots.

Once you work through a few of them, your brain gets much better at recognizing patterns and relationships, and the "chunks" with which you analyze grow larger and more useful.

I've seen your performance in that math problems thread. You wouldn't have any trouble.

Someone who sees this: Find the sum of 1+2+3+4+5...+1,000,000 might have no idea what to do. Someone accustomed to mathematics, though, would immediately suspect the existence of certain patterns, would experiment a little to find them, perhaps write out a couple of equations expressing what we do know, and would in short order come up with an equation to give us the desired answer.

Same thing with those logic games. Your brain just has to become accustomed to the type of data and connections.

Other analogies... chess problems become progressively easier to do and visualize the more familiar one becomes with the board and patterns. What seems at first like an immense and unwieldy amount of information soon reduces itself in the mind to very usable chunks of information.

Someone watching a football game doesn't see 22 unique entities running on a field; he sees a quarterback, the ball, the likely objectives of the offense, of the defense, the efforts of some to tackle the QB, etc. And he chunks the data he sees as well: there is the structure of the line, the number of receivers, the actions in the backfield, etc.

G. Polya, in his works on heuristics, liked to talk of the importance of looking back over a solved problem until one can see it all "at a glance." And I think the essence of that is learning to chunk the information appropriately and just see the connections.

First brushes with a new type of problem always involve a certain amount of normalization. When you took that LSAT, you were forcing yourself to normalize to the new type under sharp time constraints, which isn't optimal. It's also not indicative, necessarily, of how much you'd be able to learn.
 
Originally Posted by oohcow
So what is your majors LSAT people?

Accountancy over here
I was doing a masters in accounting up until about 6 months ago, but I'm more of a finance guy. The people who went on to take their CPA exams who really clicked with accounting seemed to be incredibly well-equipped for the LSAT imo, or at least well-equipped to study for it. The logic you guys have to learn just by looking at the flow of accounting information, and all of the different things it affects, is pretty good for the brain. It wasn't for me, but I think JD/CPA's are fucking smart and well-equipped for just about anything except for flying, intellect-wise.
 
^ Neat! My mom's a CPA too. There's no way I'm going to become a CPA though. I missed that boat. I think I'm just going to be a tax lawyer (things change though so you never know). I think I'm going to have to get my LLM after this as well. YAY! More school, more loans. :|
 
^ Neat! My mom's a CPA too. There's no way I'm going to become a CPA though. I missed that boat. I think I'm just going to be a tax lawyer (things change though so you never know). I think I'm going to have to get my LLM after this as well. YAY! More school, more loans. :|

wat is an LLM ?? im not familiar? is that a masters of law or something?
 
An LL.M is a Legum Magister which is basically like a Masters of a law degree. Usually you have to have a Ph.D or JD in law before admittance into a LL.M program. I was told by the professional development office that most tax attorneys get their LL.M either while first working or right after getting their JD.

H- can you verify this?

I've only taken Taxation of Individual Income but I'm taking Taxation of Business Enterprises next semester. Hopefully I enjoy next semester's class as much as I did my first.
 
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That's true, most good tax attorneys have an LLM. There are plenty of CPA's who have a JD but I see them being CPAs for the most part to pay the bills. I'm sure there's no big bar against being a tax attorney without an LLM but with a CPA - however, it's way easier to get a job as a CPA than it is to get a job as a badass tax attorney so I see a bunch of old timers with a JD/CPA who are just really good accountants but never worked for any major law firm. I can assume a lot of reasons why this is the case, but it would be interesting to know more specifics.
 
An LL.M is a Legum Magister which is basically like a Masters of a law degree. Usually you have to have a Ph.D or JD in law before admittance into a LL.M program. I was told by the professional development office that most tax attorneys get their LL.M either while first working or right after getting their JD.

H- can you verify this?

I've only taken Taxation of Individual Income but I'm taking Taxation of Business Enterprises next semester. Hopefully I enjoy next semester's class as much as I did my first.

Yes, that's right. I'm unsure as how admissions into those programs work, but I'd imagine there'd be a fair amount of emphasis on law school grades (not to pile on the pressure). It'd worthwhile to find out now. I know that frequently with attorneys already hired and in a tax group, they will be given time to get an LLM early in their career (though in this market...), and I've known about some who got the LLM first.

I don't know how hiring practices work for those coming out of an LLM program, but that's something else to investigate.
 
BACK FROM THE DEAD.

anyway. Im taking the LSAT in June 2010.

I just took my first practice, timed, wasnt trying too hard = had 10 extra minutes at the end of each section and was too lazy to go back. was slightly dissapointed i got a 150. (it is the june 2007 practice test on the lsac website) ... I dunno what to do.

I was aiming for a 175 on the lsat.... I have 6 months of time to prep... but what is the most I can realistically expect to gain? im doing -8 on logic games like -12 and -11 on LR and -6 on Reading comp....

its completely cold... i bought the power score bibles to work though as well as about 40 practice tests

so what is the amount i can reasonablyh expect to gain between now and june? 20 points possible? 25 possible? whats up with those of you who took it?
 
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That really varies quite a bit, as I recall. It's tough to say how much you might improve. However, if this is the first time you've taken the test, your improvement will likely be significant. A 175 is a high mark to aim for, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Logical reasoning and especially the logic games are most susceptible to improvement.

Ten minutes at the end of each section is a LOT of time; that's almost one-third the total time for each section, I think (it's still 35 minutes a section, right?). Try taking a section again, but this time circle the questions you're NOT certain that you got right. Then go back and check.

You're already on the right track starting this early.
 
Thanks for the tip heuristic... I definently marked up alot of the page on the logic games

BUt i didn't have a clue what to do on the LR and RC places so i failed to write anything down... needless to say i was too lazy to go back and read all that shit...

Yeah i had to read the instructions too....I think the LR instructions are funny as hell "use common sense" hahahaha.

but yeah, i guess that is alot of time... but I udnno i've been reading the economist, scientific american, and stuff like that for the last 6 months to get my dense material reading speed up... I guess it worked LOL.

yeah... my GPA is really low (3.1-3.2 lsac gpa ) and im aiming for t14-top30 cause the median starting salary for those schools are worth it to me i guess.... otherwise im not going to law school (i can make more money as a cpa which is my current study without all the debt)

I am not a minority but im not white... and im physically handicapped... so im hoping that they might take that into consideration.

Im gonna be frequenting this thread alot since my life for the next 6 months is probably gonna revolve around this lsat... :(
 
rofl, you were aiming for a 175 lsat without actually having tried one?! haha, i'm 'aiming for' becoming a billionaire in the next 5 years.
 
^ i dunno... i score higher than usual kids on any standardized testing...

I still believe i can see a 20 point increase... from what i realized its pretty easy to get -0 on logic games im not too horrible at them...

I dunno.. reading comprehension is the hardest section to improve from all my research and luckily its the one i miss least on... so im not sweating...

I dunno toast. 175/180 isn't as hard as becoming a billionaire IMO. but to each their own.

honestly im dissapointed in my overall skill but i havn't taken an english or english related class in 2 years.. LOl. its all math up in this bitch. I'll check back to you guys in a couple months ot see what im practice testing at by then... We'll know if i'll hit 175 by around april i think.

PS. and toast, i was not aiming for a 175 cold... i was aiming for a 175 with 6 months of prep... call me conceited but i believe myself to be smart enough to hit that... but im doubting myself on a 25 point increase... but no point in not trying... i have to take either the lsat or the gmat... either way i figure studying for the lsat should have me good on the verbal section of the gmat as well... I am pretty strong in the mathematics side of things.
 
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Yes, I agree with H that logic games is the best place to try to improve. Basically it's the area where people can improve the most with hard work. Not that you can't improve the other sections, but you can train your mind for those puzzles. I wish I had taken that advice more seriously.

Also, if you still can, you should REALLY enroll in a course through Kaplan or something of the sort. I know it helped a lot of my friends score much better than many of their practice tests.

Another thing is perseverance and work ethic. Force yourself to take a couple tests/ study a couple hours a week. I mean 5-10 hours a week depending on how much time you have.

My friend just scored a 180 and I was dumbfounded. I mean, he's a smart kid but I didn't know if I'd ever meet anyone who got a 180. Anyway, he didn't have a class. He just took a practice test every day for over 6 months. It is possible to study on your own I just wish I hadn't. :)
 
As an experiment, try taking the RC and LR untimed, and see how you do. Record the amount of time it takes you, but just note the time when you finish. That'll give you some more information as to what factors are affecting your performance.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for a 175.

And soon enough, you'll be reading about fox hunts, bees and car-drivers, and millstones. :)

I also think your cautious attitude towards law is appropriate.
 
LSAT tips and advice

I plan on taking the LSAT later this year, and have recently started studying and taking practice tests. Aside from putting in the hours to study, does anyone have advice for me?

I have used adderall and such throughout my years of school in order to study, take tests and write paper, although I am not prescribed. Does anyone who has studied for and taken the LSAT on adderall feel that it helped? I know with stimulants I can get caught up on problems and spend way too long trying to solve them, and I sometimes also tend to go on long scattered writing tangents. I could see this being a potential problem, considering the test is very time constrained.

If anyone has LSAT experience with or without using adderall, I would really appreciate their input.

Thanks!
 
Hi dude, we have a 'mega-thread' on taking the LSAT. I DEFINITELY recommend getting use to taking the test WITHOUT adderall. Your overall performance will definitely be better IMO. It just takes a lot of studying. I'd recommend taking a course through Kaplan or somewhere else. It is worth the money. Trust me. I'm in law school now and taking scripts is not going to pay off in the long run. If you don't mind, I'm going to merge this thread with the already existing LSAT thread. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask! I know how difficult the process can be.
 
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