Misc The (LOPERAMIDE) diaries...

[TheGreenOne]

Another day off lope and phen. I might try a day going without kratom to see how that goes. I feel pretty decent. Kratom totally migitaded any horrible feelings of despair. Still no pain anywhere. No rls. I just have anhedonia, sleep late, wake up late. More symptoms will pop up when i get off kratom... But I am not addicted to kratom physically, i only took it for 3 days.

If kratom keeps you off lope and phen then perhaps you should consider taking it longer term. I know a lot about kratom. I know people who have used it to get off of many drugs. I know military service men and women who have used it to cope with PTSD and it's worked wonders. Kratom also has some health benefits. I believe that kratom played a key in lowering my chronic lyme and mono levels. I wish I could go back to using it instead of pain meds. Just a thought.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

does anyone else react very badly to small doses of this? I take 2-4mgs during opiate w/d at work to keep from spending the day in the bathroom. It does help in one sense but the whole time aim on them it feels like my stomach is eating itself alive. It stops diarrhea at the cost of severe cramps. Sometime I feel like 4mgs doses help with the back aches but that could be just NSAIDS. Small doses are very unpleasant but required for the first couple days. It’s when the RLS and aches kick in is when I consider trying like 10mgs but always wuss out. 6mgs had me cramping like a mofo. Anyone else get this?

 

[clubcard]

Has anyone else consulted the patent of loperamide? US Patent 3714159 '2,2-diaryl-4-(4'-aryl-4'-hydroxy-piper-idino)-butyramides'. If you look at Column 8 (Table I) you will note 3 columns.

A - oral ED50 anti-diarrheal value
B - oral ED50 analgesic dose (rat tail withdrawal test)
C - ratio of B/A


A B C
Compound 23 0.13 80 615

Compound 28 0.01 3 300


From that we can divine that the -Cl moiety reduces potency by an order of magnitude. Why should that be? Well, loperamide crosses the BBB well enough but the ATP transport proteins evict it back out of the brain. I cannot overstate how hazardous this trait is. Loperamide has a 2-phase dose-response value. The dose-response is linear at any normal dose but as soon as the body reaches the point where the sheer amount of loperamide overwhelms the ATP. At this point, the dose-response cure is no longer linear. Someone can be taking 250mg at a time with no major issues (toxic megacolon not withstanding) but an increase to 300mg can change the picture entirely. If people are not aware, loperamide has been implicated in 120 deaths in the US in 2016. It appears to be a close-run thing between Long-QT, Torsades de Pointes, sudden cardiac death and yes, respiratory collapse (when the toxin was promptly identified, naloxone has saved a few).

I don't think anyone has the moral right to judge others and I believe in the 5th freedom and informed choice. What we appear to have is uninformed choice. I might also add that a study was carried out to see if substantial dehydration of the molecule happens within the brain producing an MPP+ like toxin. The study concluded that because so little enters the brain (at normal doses) and is so quickly removed (until the dose-response describes an exponential curve) and is not used regularly. In fact, they did not prove inherent safety, the discounted possible toxicity on the grounds that such doses would never be encountered.

I do not subscribe to the school of thought that says ALL drugs should be legal. If we allow heroin, is carfentanil also available? Arsenic is certainly psychoactive and hyoscine is organic. What we need is to be sensible. I do not know the laws in the locale of every reader I am sure, but in fact here ALL psychoactives are technically illegal. If you really find yourself in a hole with opioid tolerance and dependence, methadone is a much safer alternative and if that is not possible then please at least learn how to knock that -Cl off the chemical. Compound 28 is hardly 'hillbilly methadone' but I have actually pointed out to HR agencies that it is the lesser of two evils. You will not get high - the ATP transports still pump it out efficiently but the difference is that with 0.2mg dose-units, you certainly won't run into the 2-phase dose-response trap or the cardiotoxicity. I would also certainly be interested in seeing 10 & 20 year follow-up research to see what, if any, neurotoxic effects loperamide may have. Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence and the one paper on the subject was so very obviously a whitewash, it isn't to be trusted.

Please do just take a couple of minutes to read that patent. Be aware.

 

[skodeo]

Guys, I'm alive...I was attempting to catch up on this thread before I work today (still have that job - working 6 days a week, still living at my bosses after being on the streets, still taking lope in smaller portions). There's always so much to update once I jump back on here and, hell, for all I know I won't respond again for months. However, I think of you guys and this thread often. I still strive for a better life...one day.
I LOVE YOU!
Hopefully you'll hear from me soon. Time to get set to head to work.

 

[Adaoud25]

Guys, I'm alive...I was attempting to catch up on this thread before I work today (still have that job - working 6 days a week, still living at my bosses after being on the streets, still taking lope in smaller portions). There's always so much to update once I jump back on here and, hell, for all I know I won't respond again for months. However, I think of you guys and this thread often. I still strive for a better life...one day.
I LOVE YOU!
Hopefully you'll hear from me soon. Time to get set to head to work.

A skodeo, we need to have a chat bro. I waited months for u to reply

 

[Adaoud25]

If kratom keeps you off lope and phen then perhaps you should consider taking it longer term. I know a lot about kratom. I know people who have used it to get off of many drugs. I know military service men and women who have used it to cope with PTSD and it's worked wonders. Kratom also has some health benefits. I believe that kratom played a key in lowering my chronic lyme and mono levels. I wish I could go back to using it instead of pain meds. Just a thought.

Hey thanks for reading. I did think about staying on it but I really don't want to be dependent. All I did through my struggle was ''mask" the worst with kratom i believe. I enjoy it but its not my cup of tea(literally). I hate capsules cuz there too expensive and they don't hit me like toss and wash. And toss and wash sucks. I could see myself indulging days im extremely bored, or use it for a date. I just don't think its a good maintenance on my part. If you know the best way to get off painlessly.....im all ears (i have no access to prescriptions atm)

 

[Adaoud25]

I didn't realize it was so dangerous. I only take Loperamide when I'm out of my oxy which is anywhere from a couple days to a week. The problem I have with subs is I've heard that are hella bad to get off of. I guess I still have hope that one day my chronic pain will end.

Bottom line is, its gonna be ruff getting off anything. I feel the way I switched was what is best needed for my comfort. Suboxone is safer then lope. I heard a lot of the long time users of suboxone get depressed, and that's something i will avoid at all costs. So are you trying to get off? Of find substitution in between oxy use?

 

[Adaoud25]

I was on kratom for about a year and a half. I used Lop and kratom to get off of the pain meds I was taking which was a lot. Like I said above I was on 360 mgs of oxycodone per day and 24 mgs of dilaudid. I took the kratom in combo with the Lop-lowering and lowering my dose of Lop over 7 days. Then it was strictly kratom from there on out. But with my recent surgeries and my health, I just don't see anytime in the immediate future that I can go without pain meds. Kratom is great but it's a pain in the ass and I'm just not willing to put in the time with kratom that is needed at this point in my life. Kratom really is a fantastic herb for pain and mood but I have to take way too much of it.

Same here! It gets expensive at my dosages. This is the first time I used kratom 4 days in a row. Its just another hassle and a pain in my ass.... Not to mention pumping a ounce in my mouth a day. Its Definetly helped me and earned my respect, I'm grateful but i can't deal with kratom dependence.

 

[Scrofula]

I cannot overstate how hazardous this trait is

Sir, you misrepresent so many things in your post, in such a careful way, I can't help but wonder if your intentions are less than honorable. Or, maybe you yourself have been duped by some online scaremongering troll poster?

Everyone in this thread already knows that high dose loperamide is unhealthy and can be dangerous. Why add bullshit on top of that?

 

[Lobsterbutch]

I really like you Scrofula. I was reading that post thinking "has he not read the thread?" and I thought it sounded like real data explained in a round about run around way. I'm glad you said something

 

[Scrofula]

Thanks. I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt--for Valentine's day, I guess--and not just un-approving it. Maybe he wants to make some edits?

Because you're right about the "real-data" smell artfully arranged like Italian Parsley around a filet of seared truth. But those aren't steam shimmers coming off that plate, they're truth distortions. Aka Lies.

One example in case people think I'm distorting truth: loperamide has a 4-phenyl-piperidine as part of its structure.

The infamous neurotoxic precursor MPTP is a phenyl-piperidine too. Enzymes in your brain turn MPTP to the actual poison MPP+ Well, the only thing that forms MPP+, in fact, is MPTP. No other things do that. And MPTP is not included in your diarrhea medicine. MPTP has only ever once been a problem due to one chemist making RC-pethidine, and not cleaning out all the MPTP he used to cook it.

There are a few drugs that include 4-phenyl-piperidine, and maybe hundreds with similar structures. If you were a drug manufacturer, you might want to make sure your drug is not somehow metabolized into MPTP, no matter how remote the chances might be. That's something the lope manufacturers did.

Mr. Card has taken the sad story of an RC chemist from the 1970's that managed to terrify opioid addicts (and non-opi addicts like me) for decades, and adds it to the compacted misery of loperamide's narrative.

He has more, but hopefully everybody gets the idea.

 

[skodeo]

I'll attempt to make this as to the point as possible since we haven't chatted in a while, kiddos and friends.
Back when we last corresponded I was fucked without a home. Well, my boss DID let me move into his tine detached "granny unit" house. It is partially filled with their storage items, small bedroom (it's pretty much a studio), TINY bathroom, and kitchen that had the oven and fridge removed. Not even a microwave. Ooooh, air mattress to. Get this: monthly cost is $900, Yup.
I've kept my job this entire time and receive decent pay and even extra cash here and there. I haven't made this much in a while (and, to most people, it's probably considered low pay).
Anyway, I've still just been doing lope. Same as last time we spoke. Smaller amounts than I used to for a long period of time a while ago. However, there has been no tapering. Lopes are basically like my maintenance drugs. I procure them daily (lately my conscience has persuaded me to even purchase them instead of doing the wrong thing that costs me no expense...main reason being I have extra cash on hand these days...not a ton, but enough.
I take anywhere from 50 to 130 pills each day, on average. 50 pills wouldn't make for a good day though due to tolerance. I now rarely even feel the "high," or the energy boost I used to get, or the anxiety killing properties, the warm glowing joy and sociability. I now just feel at minimal normal and, if I'm lucky, a mild mood/energy boost.
Used to last 2 days and now I feel WD in 24 hours or less (the start of them, so so minimal....but a forewarning of what's to come with even more of a vengeance).
I have been taking phenibut daily around maximum 2-2.5 gram amounts, but stopped days ago and have been using a small stash of gabapentin. Plus, I had a supply of etizolam on hand...AND a half kilo each of two strains of kratom.
This guy is gonna try once again to break free and he has some supplies. Random extras include potent kava from a top vendor and also a handful of kanna.
Every day lately I sit up after waking thinking what the hell am I doing with my life? I need to change. I need to help others and have support from those who truly care (you guys).
I've been through a lot, I've been my own worst doctor. I HAVE lived and learned each time and for some divine reason I have no criminal record and somehow (for better or worse) can manage to keep my addiction in the closet from so many people who'd never suspect a thing.
In the past I always failed when I made plans to get free of lope. Most likely since I wanted the easy way out when I substituted some other replacement drug/chemical which nearly some of the worst drugs I could have chose to use for that plan.
I listed my current detox stock, what say you?

Oh, my spelling and grammar must be horrendous....thanks, etzi. Maybe I'll correct mistakes tomorrow.
I do love you all and wish the best for each of us when the time is right.

 

[Adaoud25]

Skodeo, ur a f***n legend bro! Thanks for the response on the wd stock. Im running low on kratom. Only 30g left, which means im forced to taper. It keeps going on and on with u. I will be taking phenibut again but not daily or anytime soon. Ur stock should do wonders. U need to drop the lope before it drops u man. U have everything u need to get off. I think u underestimate how uncomfortable the wd is. It really isnt noticible if u have replacements

 

[Adaoud25]

I been 1 week without lope and phen thanks to this thread and kratom. I fear my tolerance has been through the roof with kratom. I took my dose this morning and have 30gs left of Bali. I will try to hold off in till the night. If I am able to obtain a few days of bzos or something alike, I will be clean in a few days with none to little side effects. Maybe god will bless me since he knows my true purposes. Suffering isn't the way to go.....
My journey is still yet to come, moving to a different city, starting fresh. Want to go there with a straight mind. I lived in a state where kratom was illegal, and boy did that suck.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Sorry to ask the same question twice(Good to see OP back on btw) but I hear the negative physical aspects have a sort of ceiling. Like 10mgs won’t fuck with your guts much more than 4mgs? I take it at work to keep from shitting myself but at the cost of the worst cramps I’ve experienced. I do noticed a little relief from the aches and pain and RLS at my max dose(6mgs) is the ceiling thing true? Would 10mgs cause more relief with the same amount of cramping?

 

[skodeo]

Guys, I still need to go back and read all the posts/messages I've missed while I was away, so forgive me in the meantime.
Adaoud25, you're an inspiration to me and seems we are in the same boat!
Yesterday I took about 80 lopes and some etizolam (a couple times throughout the day). I came home late from work and opened my two half kilos of kratom. I bit the bullet and one day just decided I better stock up on a decent kilo of kratom and try and do this. I've been sick and tired of this cycle for entirely too long now.
4 days without phenibut now and a day without loperamide, once again. I dosed some kratom a bit ago (not sure how much,but it wasn't A LOT for someone like me...I need a damn scale since all I have is one that weighs milligrams from the U47700/fent analog days. I was debating getting lopes before work, but it's a long journey (as in 2 hours from the time I'd leave my house until the time I get to work while going out of the way to the lope store) and I want to see how I fare with just the kratom. I won't bring any to work (I don't think, maybe a bit just in case) and will def' redose again tonight.
Things have been coming together.
Like I said, I have a place and a job. My car is all ready to go once again after I get my tax return too. Everything has been normal besides the "groundhog day" issue of requiring lopes day after day after day. It makes me sick. I have a constant hole in my stomach and heart that require a daily fill. I still HATE walking into a store knowing I'm about to steal (or, rarely, buy) something that will keep me out of WDs, but not even really get me high. Something just to maintain and make it through my day. I could get high off lope still if I ever decided to dose like I once used to, but for some reason I rarely get the urge too. My main concern being the side effects. I hate the lope's wacky vision that can get so bad I wouldn't be able to operate a car and, worst of all, the muscle weakness I've discussed and also read a couple others mention they get too. I'd be impossible for me to work if I wanted to take enough to feel "high." My arms and legs just give out.
I wish I could have some time away from work to deal with all of this like in the past, but now I'm working more than ever. 6 nights a week with just Monday's off. It's a tiring job too. I know this won't be painless, but hopefully the kratom and etizolam and other odds and ends at my disposal make this easier than expected. I walk 3 miles to work these days and there is a head shop along the way where, some days, I would purchase their expensive and shitty kratom capsules just so I wouldn't have to deal with getting lope. The days I have taken the kratom instead of the lope were noticeably harder to get through and sometime that kratom would wreck me with side effects like vision distortion and mass anxiety due to overstimulation. It's obviously low quality if it's from a headshop though so these things occur.
This kilo I have seems to treat me decent thus far. I don't feel high, but I do have a mood lift and feel a little glow. I think I need to keep my new kratom stash doses low and frequent to start out. Eventually I'll figure out something that works for me. Oh, I just popped two Gabapentin too...only have a few of those left, but that's ok since the etizolam keeps phenibut WDs at bay anyhow.
I hope y'all have a great day. Tues, Wed, and Thurs at work are pretty easy for me (slower)....the weekends are hard and demanding and I work a lot longer besides Sunday which is usually not bad. Here we go, kiddos. I was going to leave now early for some lope, but now I'm just going to stick it out. At the day's end I know I'll appreciate the fact that I survived the day lope free.

 

[skodeo]

Also, can I just say I love all you people out there. This forum brings much solace to my troubled mind and gives me a reason to carry on when I'm attempting to change my actions. Thank you all...each and every one of you.
To those out there who are suffering I wish you only the best.
Life is crazy, man. Everything happens for a reason though, it really does.
At this point in time I think my best bet is the kratom method. Once I've shifted to kratom for a bit of time it won't be bad weaning off of it as I've had experience with it in the past which was completely tolerable. I know the etizolam can cause addiction issues, but I'm using that sparingly and have gone periods with taking it without any problems besides a few days of anxiety after my supply dissipated...kava will combat that if need be.
May we all find our way and be the best we can be.

And CHEERS to this thread being a few weeks away from its 2 year birthday! Wow.

----

Sorry to ask the same question twice(Good to see OP back on btw) but I hear the negative physical aspects have a sort of ceiling. Like 10mgs won?t fuck with your guts much more than 4mgs? I take it at work to keep from shitting myself but at the cost of the worst cramps I?ve experienced. I do noticed a little relief from the aches and pain and RLS at my max dose(6mgs) is the ceiling thing true? Would 10mgs cause more relief with the same amount of cramping?

I do not have an answer for this...not sure what to say. Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[Lobsterbutch]

I can kinda answer that. No, it doesn't really have a ceiling effect, as from my personal loperamide experience, when I was taking 400mg/day and "maintaining" with it my bowels would be "ok" relativley speaking, but upping it 50-100mg to get some more "enjoyment" out of it would leave me totally plugged up in a bad way for a few days. And relative decreases of 50-100mg got my bowels moving again with gusto. But given my doses were bigger than 4-10mgs, im not sure its conclusive

 

[Adaoud25]

The cramps are from your solidified shit in your intestines area. Whenever u take more lope, it won't hurt. That's my experience. There is no ceiling effect for me. Once I past 10mgs, its no different then 100mgs(shitting wise).

 

[skodeo]

Kratom day done. Wasn't the best, wasn't the worst...but lope WDs are easing their way into my brain more and more.
Dose of kratom, etizolam, and a wee kava with weed before bed not long ago. Up early to see my gf (who still doesn't know of these shared struggles here).