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Kratom The Kratom Megathread

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Julesz said:
Be careful of the liver failure Kratom overuse can cause
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LucidSDreamr said:
where is this documented?
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Several cases have been reported (NCBI, Bluelight, Drugs-forum):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550198/
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/767427-kratom-2nd-time-hepatotoxic-ER-w-liver-problems
https://drugs-forum.com/threads/kratom-and-liver-toxicity.221768/
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/676106-Kratom-induced-liver-injury

On Erowid:

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=96857
https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=95669
https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=102799
https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=71949
https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88678

And it's mentioned in this study:

https://drugs-forum.com/threads/a-study-of-kratom-eaters-in-thailand.3626/

Long term addicts become thin, their skin darkens, particularly in the face on both cheeks which gives an appearance similar to a hepatic face.
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Is this a sign of hepatotoxicity ?
 
The problem is that that there a few cases out of hundreds of thousands of users. Also, some kratom products have been known to be adulterated, so we can't conclude that it's specifically the kratom.

I'll give you an example of a similar set of circumstances. Not long ago, there was an outbreak of liver failure cases directly linked to kava consumption, so the EU banned kava. As it turns out, the liver failure cases had nothing to do with kava root powder, but it was caused by manufacturers that were selling extracts that were adulterated with inedible cultivars and toxic parts of the plant (IE stems and leaves). Moreover many of those cases of liver failure were complicated by concurrent intake of other drugs that can be hard on the liver.

So, I think it's definitely a good idea for people to get checked for liver issues, but there's no reason to believe that kratom is hepatotoxic. Much more likely possibilities would be a very small percentage of the population have a genetic predisposition to get liver problems from kratom, adulterants, people already partially destroying their liver, or some combination of the three.
 
Slow_Mobius said:
The problem is that that there a few cases out of hundreds of thousands of users. Also, some kratom products have been known to be adulterated, so we can't conclude that it's specifically the kratom.
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The first study mentions that no adulterant was detected:

Samples of the kratom powders used by the patient (“Thai Pimp” and “Malaysian Green”) were analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) to confirm the use of M. speciosa and to exclude other toxic ingredients.
Through detection of mitragynine (both samples) and traces of rhynchophylline (only in “Thai Pimp”), besides typical phytosterols, the samples were identified as M. speciosa. Although mitragynine was not quantified, the analysis revealed that the sample of “Thai Pimp” contained significantly more mitragynine than the sample of “Malaysian Green.” In both samples, no synthetic adulterants or contaminations were detected.
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kratomtea7 said:
The first study mentions that no adulterant was detected:
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With the wide-spread use of RCs these days, that doesn't mean that there wasn't any type of adulteration. It just means that they weren't able to detect an adulterant. I think that adulteration in that particular case would be unlikely, but that still does nothing to prove kratom is hepatotoxic. Even if we knew with certainty that each case of liver failure was caused by nothing other than people consuming kratom leaf, the small number of cases would dwarf the large body of people that use it without any liver issues. I'll refer back to my previous hypotheses that it could also due to prior health issues or genetic predisposition. it's an extremely rare reaction.

Again, I'll refer the instance of liver failure associated with kava consumption. Adulterants were not detected because at the time, no one knew what they needed to look for. I'm not tying to say kratom is harmless, but this smells like a witch hunt. I think it's prudent to see a doctor if you're worried about liver issues, but i wouldn't avoid the plant just because of its weak association with liver failure.
 
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kratomtea7 said:
I give this information for harm reduction.

There are also other reasons that may exhort caution with kratom, especially the risk of dependence:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080

This recent study (with 293 Malaysian kratom users) reports a withdrawal syndrome.

Many addictions stories here:
https://drugs-forum.com/threads/kratom-addiction.24888/

And on the sub-reddit "quitting kratom".

Take care !
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Sounds good :) I don't think anyone here will deny that kratom dependence will produce opioid withdrawal symptoms. It is an opioid after all. I think what's being misunderstood is that kratom is pretty harmless in comparison to virtually any other opioid--especially our pharmaceuticals. Tramadol is the lowest scheduled pharmaceutical opioid, and there are tons of cases of serious health complications and withdrawal associated with it's use. Kratom is an opioid, it can be abused, it can cause WD with extended use, but it's also an awesome analgesic with side effects, WD, and addiction liability that pale in comparison to our current pharmacopeia of pain killers.
 
Couple questions:

Does anyone have info, not just on where the Kratom ban is at in particular in the U.S., but New York specifically??

Unfortunately, they are really going after New York, Florida and 2 other states right now (forget which ones).

And with Jeff "the weed hating neo nazi" just being appointed Attorney General, I think it won't be long now...

I hate the fucking DEA, they are downright evil IMO.

Anyways, I wanted to know where it's at at this point.

I guess I've heard legality issues aren't allowed to be discussed here but is it REALLY not ok to discuss whether something is legal or not?

I just don't understand what harm that does anyone.

As for WD, of course it has some.

That is one of the reasons I've gotten to the point of wanting to stop, only the problem is I'd just like to stop for a year or two, not FOREVER, but I may not have a choice.

I've been pretty good at not using it every SINGLE day, and honestly most people would be much further in after using on and off for 2 years, but still, I'm at a point where because I don't want to become TOO dependent, like once every two weeks I have to go about another week without to get over the WD, which is mainly depression, being really tired and sleeping a lot, some muscle aches, runny nose, and just not having much motivation to do anything.

It's not the worst thing in the world, and really IMO is pretty much like going cold turkey off coffee cause I have a HUGE caffeine habit, except adding in a runny nose.

It should stay legal...but it's just gotten to this point where i think enough is enough and I'm not focusing enough on more important thing and don't like having to be incapable of doing much while I go through withdrawal for like 12 days or so out of every month to avoid the habit getting any worse.

And I do have one question: now I PERSONALLY think the liver issues are for rare people who can't tolerate Kratom due to lacking some enzymes.

BUT...and this is a bit explicit LOL, maybe a few days a month when I am sitting on the toilet the day after using Kratom, and then sometimes for a few more minutes after getting up off the toliet, I will feel like I am getting some mild aches in my liver area.

Has anyone else ever experienced this?

Do you think this is a sign that I am straining my liver?

Just because I feel it in the right side does that mean it's my liver?

And if it is, to people think this is long term?

I mean I tend to think it might just be from straining after being constipated, but why the left side and not the right, and why only when I use the toilet or shortly after?

I am assuming the issue will clear up once I eventually stop, and would probably not do more than temporarily raise liver enzymes like alcohol do, but since the last time I had a doctors visit and had my liver/blood looked at was only shortly after I started using small amounts of Kratom once or twice a week, I have to admit I'm a bit nervous about my next doctor's visit, and thinking I'm REALLY gonna clean up, abstain from most drugs including Kratom, alcohol, Phenibut, etc for a few months, and go on a good diet and lose some weight, with the hopes that my liver will look good by the time I finally go.

I guess I have established that old oh so healthy "white coat doctor fear" haha.

I mean I figure, why go see the doctor when you are putting crap in your body so you can see bad results?

Why not clean up, do the right thing for a few months and only THEN see the doctor, because if by THAT time your liver/blood looks good, you are ok, and if not, well only then would you have something to worry about, other than freaking out about something temporary.

I mean my liver enzymes are always elevated after drinking also...so I see no point in getting yourself in bad shape and having a doctor look at you while you are at your worse so he can say "yeah, your liver enzymes are elevated" well no shit doc lol......
 
^from the rules
4) NO BUMPING THREADS
"Bumping" is the act of replying to a thread so it will regain position at the top of the forum. Please do not do this. More often than not, most threads that disappear to older pages still get answered eventually. Please be patient.
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Any advice to avoid projectile vomiting?

I'm attempting to use kratom as "bridge" to get off opioids completely as I can't deal with the torment of a suboxone 2 week withdrawal at this time. I would like to use it for 3 weeks then cold turkey off of it.

I find that every time I dose there's about a 1 in 3 (or greater) chance that I am overcome by nausea and if I can't make it to the toilet end up having to clean vomit off my bathroom walls and floor.

I am thinking about either capping it or going with an extract.

Would either of these, or any other method help me not throw up in such violent fashion? I would just smoke weed but I don't have time after dosing to smoke before it comes back up.

Heroin in Massachusetts is at the point where I'm fairly certain 90% or more has fentanyl and I am not looking to die (part of why I'm on suboxone to start with) and pills are priced unreasonably high. For me to get high off oxycodone for example when I wasn't tolerant took about 50mg for a 4 hour high and to just avoid withdrawal with the popular pills might cost $100 or more per day.

I'd like to go the kratom route but if I can't keep it down I'll just stick to suboxone and try to get a bottle of tramadol which are generally dirt cheap.
 
Are you throwing up because of the taste or because of the nausea from it sitting in your stomach?

Capping it helps with the taste but is time consuming. You can also place up to a couple grams inside a square of tissue paper/toilet paper, fold it up and wash it down with something to drink. The tissue/toilet paper method is not recommended though if you are the type of person that would have difficulty swallowing something like that (some people cannot due to gag reflex).
 
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How much are you taking? It just sounds like you're taking too much. Nausea is a really common side effect when you overdo it.
 
Mycophile said:
Couple questions:

Does anyone have info, not just on where the Kratom ban is at in particular in the U.S., but New York specifically??

Unfortunately, they are really going after New York, Florida and 2 other states right now (forget which ones).

And with Jeff "the weed hating neo nazi" just being appointed Attorney General, I think it won't be long now...

I hate the fucking DEA, they are downright evil IMO.

Anyways, I wanted to know where it's at at this point.

I guess I've heard legality issues aren't allowed to be discussed here but is it REALLY not ok to discuss whether something is legal or not?

I just don't understand what harm that does anyone.

As for WD, of course it has some.

That is one of the reasons I've gotten to the point of wanting to stop, only the problem is I'd just like to stop for a year or two, not FOREVER, but I may not have a choice.

I've been pretty good at not using it every SINGLE day, and honestly most people would be much further in after using on and off for 2 years, but still, I'm at a point where because I don't want to become TOO dependent, like once every two weeks I have to go about another week without to get over the WD, which is mainly depression, being really tired and sleeping a lot, some muscle aches, runny nose, and just not having much motivation to do anything.

It's not the worst thing in the world, and really IMO is pretty much like going cold turkey off coffee cause I have a HUGE caffeine habit, except adding in a runny nose.

It should stay legal...but it's just gotten to this point where i think enough is enough and I'm not focusing enough on more important thing and don't like having to be incapable of doing much while I go through withdrawal for like 12 days or so out of every month to avoid the habit getting any worse.

And I do have one question: now I PERSONALLY think the liver issues are for rare people who can't tolerate Kratom due to lacking some enzymes.

BUT...and this is a bit explicit LOL, maybe a few days a month when I am sitting on the toilet the day after using Kratom, and then sometimes for a few more minutes after getting up off the toliet, I will feel like I am getting some mild aches in my liver area.

Has anyone else ever experienced this?

Do you think this is a sign that I am straining my liver?

Just because I feel it in the right side does that mean it's my liver?

And if it is, to people think this is long term?

I mean I tend to think it might just be from straining after being constipated, but why the left side and not the right, and why only when I use the toilet or shortly after?

I am assuming the issue will clear up once I eventually stop, and would probably not do more than temporarily raise liver enzymes like alcohol do, but since the last time I had a doctors visit and had my liver/blood looked at was only shortly after I started using small amounts of Kratom once or twice a week, I have to admit I'm a bit nervous about my next doctor's visit, and thinking I'm REALLY gonna clean up, abstain from most drugs including Kratom, alcohol, Phenibut, etc for a few months, and go on a good diet and lose some weight, with the hopes that my liver will look good by the time I finally go.

I guess I have established that old oh so healthy "white coat doctor fear" haha.

I mean I figure, why go see the doctor when you are putting crap in your body so you can see bad results?

Why not clean up, do the right thing for a few months and only THEN see the doctor, because if by THAT time your liver/blood looks good, you are ok, and if not, well only then would you have something to worry about, other than freaking out about something temporary.

I mean my liver enzymes are always elevated after drinking also...so I see no point in getting yourself in bad shape and having a doctor look at you while you are at your worse so he can say "yeah, your liver enzymes are elevated" well no shit doc lol......
Click to expand...

On a forum where people discuss drug use, today's society makes discussions about legality inherently dangerous territory. That info can be pretty easily found with a Google search anyways, and if not, you should be able to get that information from local authorities.

It's really easy to mistake pain related to gas and constipation for liver pain. Your liver is pretty high up, so it would be your upper right quadrant. If you're really suffering from liver problems, there are alot of other symptoms to look for, but the typically, liver problems are asymptomatic until they become serious. Youre probably fine, but if you need peace of mind, bring it up to your doctor and you can get bloodwork done to check it out. Obviously, quitting is the best solution.
 
An update on my quitting Kratom experience. Today is my first day without any PL and only S & V. I have no WD yet whatsoever. While there is definitely not the same euphoria from S&V that I achieve from PL, it actually feels pretty decent. And the most important aspect is it seems to be staving off WD 100%. I do not even have any mental anxiety....yet. I'll see how the rest of the day goes bc WD for me usually doesn't start to get uncomfortable until the 30 hour mark and right now I am only at 18 hours. Still feeling much better with the S&V than I normally am at this point w no PL.

Maybe S&V causes a softer landing after all...
 
@treezy:
If you're taking it as powder washed down with a drink, be sure to swish it all up properly in your mouth before swallowing. Otherwise, there's a tendency for clumps of powder to form and remain dry which can cause irritation on the way down.
There's a bit of a knack to the "swishing" too - you have to keep all of the mixture towards the front of your mouth until it's all wet, else there's a risk of some dry powder setting off your gag reflex, or worse, being accidentally inhaled.
 
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Why havn't any sort of regulation of kratom been proposed. I would actually favor knowing my kratom wasn't covered in toxic metals and pesticides. And 14 year old kids shouldn't have access to it either.

Why is there no discussion of this at all, just outright scheduling. I mean the DEA did back down, and now they just don't say shit. it seems very fishy i think they are just waiting for shit to calm down and we will wake up one morning and it will be illegal with no warning whatsoever
 
LucidSDreamr said:
Why havn't any sort of regulation of kratom been proposed. I would actually favor knowing my kratom wasn't covered in toxic metals and pesticides. And 14 year old kids shouldn't have access to it either.

Why is there no discussion of this at all, just outright scheduling. I mean the DEA did back down, and now they just don't say shit. it seems very fishy i think they are just waiting for shit to calm down and we will wake up one morning and it will be illegal with no warning whatsoever
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Preach
 
^ Let's take stock. The DEA did back off as a result of letters from senators and congressman (available online to view to which I am still speechless over) and the BEA and AKA have been going out and meeting with people. That's pretty big. So I just wanted to add to the positive momentum. That did counteract some of the sneaky big pharma moved to f&ck society for a profit.

I am as jaded as anyone. Been around to long and lived through the "Just Say No" era and watched peaceful Deadheads get their lives ruined by LE's shooting ducks in a barrel in parking lots. Very barbaric. So I am jaded. I curse the douchbags (whoever they may be) all the time. But I see good here with kratom and we all did make a difference. And if we donate to those associations and don't feel they are doing enough we can voice that to them. But they do go out and meet with people and keep us updated.

But I like the vision of quality kratom that is clean and inspected with an over 18 restriction. For most of us that have utilized kratom it has been a life saver. So more positive than negative. I want definitive answers too. But what I don't believe is we wake up one day and all the good work we all did just gets ignored. But if this were 1985 that would happen. But I don't believe that will be the result if this fight. Winning a few battles lifts the spirits a bit.
 
So what I've learned from Kratom WD is that, no it's not as severe in a physical way like traditional opiates, but the sweating and freaking killer anxiety is brutal. The lethargy and lack of motivation also sucks bad. The only good thing is that it hits quick and is over quick (for me at least). Still, not something I want to experience again.
 
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