Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[pbuilder]

I used Kratom for about 6 months and found it not to be worth the effort.

I would buy it in 1kg bulk, then use an method to get an extract. The leaf and extract are nasty to ingest so I even went to the extent to get soft gels to capsule the product. I would go at about 5gr leaf or 2 gram extract and while it gave me a buzz the tolerance will kick in quickly. The stuff aint cheap and when you add in the extra hassle to avoid gulping shredded leaf down, its not worth it.

I found that I could just go to my vet and get Tramadol prescribed for my 150lb dog who has arthritis and pay $27 for 300 of the suckers. Much cheaper and no hassle.

Yea but doses of tramadol over 400mg per day out you at risk of seizure, and tramadol has properties similar to and ssri so it apparently has some really freaky withdrawal symptoms that are like a combination of opiate withdrawal and anti depressant withdrawal combined.

Me no gusta.

 

[Mycophile]

different people have differing sensitivities to the opioid versus the adrenergic (stimulating) effects.

The alkaloids in kratom are stimulating the exact same way that something like yohimbine is. (In fact, look at the structures of mitragynine and yohimbine side by side one time). On paper, the stimulation can be reduced by either taking alpha2-adrenergic agonists (clonidine) which would be the exact reverse effect of kratom stimulation, or you can find some other way to reduce adrenaline and norepinephrine release.

Hmm, so you think it would be ok for me to experiment with taking Clonidine on the tail end of a Kratom experience to see if it helps me sleep?

Could Clonidine also help me sleep if I just drank too much coffee?

Does Clonidine have any negative interactions with Lexapro or Klonopin?

Thanks


Also, I once did take Yohimbe (probably not smart since I was on Prozac at the time) and yes, I remember the adrenaline producing feeling being somewhat similar to the stimulant side of Kratom.

 

[Mycophile]

I used Kratom for about 6 months and found it not to be worth the effort.

I would buy it in 1kg bulk, then use an method to get an extract. The leaf and extract are nasty to ingest so I even went to the extent to get soft gels to capsule the product. I would go at about 5gr leaf or 2 gram extract and while it gave me a buzz the tolerance will kick in quickly. The stuff aint cheap and when you add in the extra hassle to avoid gulping shredded leaf down, its not worth it.

I found that I could just go to my vet and get Tramadol prescribed for my 150lb dog who has arthritis and pay $27 for 300 of the suckers. Much cheaper and no hassle.

Some people just don't like Kratom.

Suit yourself, I love the stuff and don't really mind swallowing it all that much.

You probably also used it every day I am guessing but I only use it 3 times a week.

I never used Tramadol but I never heard of it being anything like Kratom.

 

[Mycophile]

What are some things (foods, drugs, etc) that everyone agrees potentiate Kratom??

A lot of people said grapefruit juice but now many are saying they think that that is just placebo.

I was drinking it for a while and thought it might have been intensifying it but now I also think it may have been placebo so I stopped wasting money on grapefruit juice lol.

 

[DixiChik]

Hey Y'all...I'm looking for a non-opiate approach to PM. Kratom was recommended, so I ordered some in capsules just to try. IF it works for me, and I determine the dose, my husband says we'll order in bulk powder. He can make the capsules for me. I'm trying Maeng Da for pain and to stimulate. I KNOW I can't just swallow the powder without projectile vomit...thus, capsule formulation needed.

I know less than nothing, so my husband ordered capsules 600 mg. On Tuesday I took 600 mg @ 7:30, followed by the same dose @ 9:45, 1:30 and 4:30 for a total of 2+ grams. I really felt no different, but was happy I didn't get tummy pain from swallowing capsules. (It happens, believe me).

Thanks, Mycophile, for suggesting I try Kratom for PM/Mood lift. I realize this will take trial and error, so I'm going SLOW. I tried to contact >>Plasticity<< but have not yet gotten a response. Still hopeful that this will work to ease just some of my intense pain and lift my mood.

This morning I took 3 capsules on an empty stomach with glass of water @ 8:00. I don't feel anything, but a little ringing in my left ear. I can't blame Kratom for that, because SHINGLES in my eye have caused all sorts of craziness in my eye/temple/ear.

Plasticity...Can you offer some suggestions? I don't know really where to go with dosing. I'm guessing effects are delayed by capsule vs. straight powder? I hope you'll chime in with any helpful info you have. I'd appreciate it much. I won't belabor my life history with pain and depression. I've documented on other threads since joining BL a couple of months ago.

Who knows? I may HAVE TO continue with the Oxycodone prescribed by PM doctor. I'm currently prescribed 15 mg 3xday, but I won't take that much. Yes, I have severe pain that justifies the amount, but I personally do not want to allow myself large doses. I've read too many horror stories.

Thanks, guys

 

[pbuilder]

Just want to bring this too everyones attention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

Kratom may cause the life threatening arrythmia torsades de pointes.

If you ever feel easily winded on kratom, light headed, shortness of breath, chest pain, weakness, or fatigue on kratom, you should stop taking it immediately. The more severe symptoms would be fainting, sudden death, or awaking gasping for air covered in cold sweat during the night. If you have genetic predipostions to any heart arrythmia's or heart diseases it would be wise to also stop it asap. (This means if anyone in your family has had arrythmia's, prolonged QT, or any heart issues, stay clear) If you have ever had a case of unexplained sudden death or fainting in your family, it would be wise to stop taking kratom asap.

Stay safe guys, we really don't know how safe kratom is. For that reason I quit it about a month ago.
(Although I hopped to poppy seed tea, I'm no angel and can't seem to fucking quit opiates lol)

 

[Ziiirp]

Thanks for the link. Isn't it common sense, that strong mu-opioid-agonists have undesired effects on the heart muscle ? I thought every opioid inherits that property. I've never heard of Kratom related fatalities and therefore I smell a pharma lobbyist campaign.

 

[pbuilder]

Thanks for the link. Isn't it common sense, that strong mu-opioid-agonists have undesired effects on the heart muscle ? I thought every opioid inherits that property. I've never heard of Kratom related fatalities and therefore I smell a pharma lobbyist campaign.

That's not true, most mu-opiates don't effect the heart. A select few like methadone, and I believe Demerol and a few others have been linked to heart problems, but morphine for example doesn't seem to effect the heart. It's specific ones that effect sodium or potassium channels in the heart that cause problems, and I can personally say that with borderline qt myself that kratom was beginning to make me feel ill, chest pains and very easily winded were the main issues I was experiencing and they seem to have cleared up since I got off it.

So better safe then sorry, and that's a legit study that has nothing to do with an pharma companies. And it's about damn time some studies are being done on kratom, who the fuck wants to take a drug that hasn't been studied?

 

[when I dream]

I've never heard of Kratom related fatalities and therefore I smell a pharma lobbyist campaign.

I won't pretend that I understand all of that study (in fact I gave up trying), but I was kind of thinking the same thing. I mean, kratom has been used by humans for like a thousand years or something. I feel like if people were actually dropping dead from kratom that more than a small minority of this country would be aware of the plant.

 

[pbuilder]

I won't pretend that I understand all of that study (in fact I gave up trying), but I was kind of thinking the same thing. I mean, kratom has been used by humans for like a thousand years or something. I feel like if people were actually dropping dead from kratom that more than a small minority of this country would be aware of the plant.

Anything that can potentially cause torsades is not something you want to touch with a ten foot poll.

Kratom has not been used by Caucasians for anything but the past decade and a bit, and how would they be able to effectively calculate the amounts of potential cardiac related deaths over thousands of years that may have been tied to kratom.

Let's not pretend kratom is some benign thing, it's an opiate and it gets you high. It has all sorts of mechanisms of actions that we do not even know of or understand, and that haven't been studied, and since toxicology reports don't test for kratom, and the deaths aren't caused by acute overdose how can we really have an accurate idea of potential deaths related to kratom, we can't.

This whole it's been used for thousands of years things is tiring. Kava kava has been used for thousands of years, and it's hepatotoxic. The truth is we don't actually know fuck all about how safe kratom is, and it worrys me how quickly you guys are going to brush off a study that could link a deadly arrhythmia like torsades to kratom like it's bullshit.

The thing about arrhythmia's is that they are usually symptomless until you drop dead from sudden cardiac death.

I'll I'm doing is putting this information out there so that people can make an informed decision on there use of kratom, especially if they have a pre-existing heart condition.

 

[Ziiirp]

That's not true, most mu-opiates don't effect the heart. A select few like methadone, and I believe Demerol and a few others have been linked to heart problems, but morphine for example doesn't seem to effect the heart. It's specific ones that effect sodium or potassium channels in the heart that cause problems, and I can personally say that with borderline qt myself that kratom was beginning to make me feel ill, chest pains and very easily winded were the main issues I was experiencing and they seem to have cleared up since I got off it.

So better safe then sorry, and that's a legit study that has nothing to do with an pharma companies. And it's about damn time some studies are being done on kratom, who the fuck wants to take a drug that hasn't been studied?

Lol, pure comedy to ask that in the "other drugs" section of BL Like with any drug it the outcome depends on dose and regularity. And I'm also thankful for every piece of information, when the originator's motives definitively serve education instead of propaganda. Thanks for the clarification about cardiotoxicity of mu-agonists.

 

[when I dream]

I never said I was brushing off the study, it appears that the funders of the study are legitimate, unbiased organizations.

What I will say is that I believe much or all of the work done in that study was done in vitro. That doesn't necessarily translate to similar effects in vivo.

You say that we may not realize people are dropping dead from kratom because we aren't making the connection. Don't you think though, that they would have found the kratom stash of at least one of these people post mortem and jumped to conclusions as they always do?

Edit: I did manage to find this:

http://kwgn.com/2014/03/01/denver-family-warns-others-about-dangers-of-legal-herbal-stimulant/

Of course, there's no way of knowing what else this guy was doing/what else may have been wrong with him. Just because a guy has a seizure and was taking kratom doesn't mean there is a connection between those two things. I'm really not too worried, I still don't believe kratom is anywhere near as dangerous as most drugs people use, except maybe weed.

 

[Mycophile]

Just want to bring this too everyones attention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

Kratom may cause the life threatening arrythmia torsades de pointes.

If you ever feel easily winded on kratom, light headed, shortness of breath, chest pain, weakness, or fatigue on kratom, you should stop taking it immediately. The more severe symptoms would be fainting, sudden death, or awaking gasping for air covered in cold sweat during the night. If you have genetic predipostions to any heart arrythmia's or heart diseases it would be wise to also stop it asap. (This means if anyone in your family has had arrythmia's, prolonged QT, or any heart issues, stay clear) If you have ever had a case of unexplained sudden death or fainting in your family, it would be wise to stop taking kratom asap.

Stay safe guys, we really don't know how safe kratom is. For that reason I quit it about a month ago.
(Although I hopped to poppy seed tea, I'm no angel and can't seem to fucking quit opiates lol)

Wait a minute, have there been ACTUAL reports of this happening???

I mean the link says there has but why haven't they at least linked a SPECIFIC incident like "50 year old male in United States in 2007 had an arrythimia" etc, just "it happened"??

And can it only happen if you have a genetic predisposition to a heart condition in your family??

Does this mean that Kratom is cardio toxic for ALL people??!?!

 

[Mycophile]

Fuck, I'm not happy about this.

I really want some more opinions on this.

I finally found a drug I really like and I don't want to have to stop using Kratom unless it's really a dangerous drug.

 

[sekio]

Kava kava has been used for thousands of years, and it's hepatotoxic.

Some parts of the plant are. Not all of them are, though.

 

[Mycophile]

I'm interested in educated opinions from people like Plasticity and Sekio.

Do you think all Kratom users would be wise to quit?

Is this the Final Word on Kratom?

Does this definitively PROVE it is cardio toxic to all people, or is there possibly more to the issue??

 

[Rexeh]

Got this information from Erowid.org, might be insughtful for those wanting to read more about potential health risks:

DEATHS
We know of no documented deaths directly attributable to kratom, but some products sold as kratom have resulted in death. One death documented in a 2011 paper described a kratom product that also had O-desmethyltramadol (a synthetic pharmaceutical) added to it. [1]

According to Pascal Tanguay, from the Thailand offices of PSI, a Washington DC-based global health organization that promotes harm reduction among drug users, "There's never been a single death associated with kratom. People have been chewing this for thousands of years with no cases of overdose, psychosis, murder, violent crime. Never in all of recorded history." [2]

CAUTIONS

• Liver Toxicity / Hepatotoxicity / Hepatitis. A small number of kratom experience reports describe hepatitis and/or hepatotoxic symptoms. This effect has also been reported in the medical literature (Kapp et al. 2011). Most of these reports of liver-health issues involve kratom extracts rather than unenhanced dried leaves. It is unknown if these are attributable to kratom alkaloids, extract-production byproducts, or other contaminants. See Sly 2008, Nlogn 2011, Experience Reports with mentions of liver issues.
  
• Habituation / Addiction. Kratom is considered addictive; reports of physical and psychological dependence, tolerance, and physical withdrawal symptoms are prevalent, though not universal, in experience reports. Taking kratom daily can result in physical dependence. In such instances, symptoms similar to those of opioid withdrawal usually begin 18-24 hours after the last dose and continue for 1-14 days.
  
• Vomiting while Sedated Mixing kratom with alcohol or other sedating drugs could result in life-threatening situations related to aspiration of vomit and asphyxia if unattended.
  
• Respiratory Depression? When asked whether kratom was dangerous, leading medical toxicologist Edward Boyer replied:
  
  
  People are afraid of opioid analgesics because they can lead to respiratory depression [difficulty breathing]. When you overdose on these drugs, your respiratory rate drops to zero. In animal studies where rats were given mitragynine, those rats had no respiratory depression. This opens the possibility of someday developing a pain medication as effective as morphine but without the risk of accidentally overdosing and dying. - Boyer E (professor of emergency medicine and director of medical toxicology at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.) [3]​

BENEFITS

• Medical Uses. The primary medical uses described by users of kratom are analgesia (pain relief), cessation of opioid withdrawal symptoms, and sedation.
  
• Reduction or Cessation of Opioid Withdrawal Symptoms Kratom is widely used by opioid addicts to stop or reduce opioid withdrawal symptoms. In some cases, kratom use helps individuals stop taking opioids entirely, but in other cases kratom simply replaces the other opioid addiction with daily kratom use.

References #

1. Kronstrand R, Roman M, Thelander G, Eriksson A. "Unintentional fatal intoxications with mitragynine and O-desmethyltramadol from the herbal blend Krypton" J Anal Toxicol. 2011 May 25;35(4):242-7.
2. Winn P. Thailand’s cure for meth addiction? A leafy jungle stimulant - GlobalPost, Sep 17 2013
3. Greenemeier L. Should Kratom Use Be Legal?. Scientific American. Sep 30, 2013
4. Erowid E, Erowid F. "The Kratom Experience from First-Hand Reports". in Kratom & Related Compounds (Mitragynines): The Chemistry & Pharmacology of Opioids from a Non-Opium Source [forthcoming].

Revision History #

v1.0 - Mar 30, 2014 - Erowid

--» Peace o/

 

[pbuilder]

Got this information from Erowid.org, might be insughtful for those wanting to read more about potential health risks:




--» Peace o/

I can respect that erowid page but it only really talks about deaths related to acute overdose or organ failure, and doesn't address the fact that most of the alkaloids in kratom haven't had any medical studies done on them. There are a lot of opiates with medical studies that have been linked to cardiac conduction disturbances because of their effect on certain channels in the heart.

Heart disease is a massive cause of death worldwide, and I'm sure tons of kratom users in Thailand have died from heart problems, just as tons of people who don't use kratom have died of heart problems. The question is, has a survey ever been done to see if statistically more cases of sudden cardiac death or heart disease occur among kratom users then the non user population. The answer is no, so we don't know.

My opinion is if you have any history of heart problems in your family, specifically problems with arrhythmia's, it would be wise to avoid kratom. Everyone here is an adult who can make there own decisions on what they out in their body. Keep in mind that erowid page appears to be based on anecdotal evidence, and there is not really any medical literature that has studied the effects of kratom on the heart, besides that one I linked, and I hope more studies get carried out on kratom soon, in Vito, so we can truly know if it is as benign as the average user thinks, or if it has potential risks to it, which most drugs do.

 

[Mycophile]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

 

[DixiChik]

I'm new to the trial of Kratom, as y'all know. I only took 3 capsules total (1800 mg) yesterday. I noticed a horrid headache yesterday afternoon. It was pulsing in the top of my head. I can't blame Kratom because I did get too hot outside. This sultry heat can sneak up on you.

I don't want to stop until I've given it a chance to "work" for me. So far I've felt nothing different. No adverse effects either, though, which is great! I guess I just need to increase amount/intervals until I feel results for pain relief/mood lift.

As previously mentioned upon joining BL, my PM prescribes Oxycodone. It seems to cause rebound pain when I take it. In other words, it hits hard making me feel "good" (pain still there but I don't care). It quickly wears off, leaving me with more pain. I can see where this could be a dangerous path to take. SO...I'm giving Kratom a try.