Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[weekend addiction]

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d being agony and unbearable (lots), versus the number of people who have been hospitalized from kratom induced liver failure (I can count on one hand the number of reported kratom hospitalizations).

Kratom is an opioid. Opioids cause dependence. End of story. Just because it has other modes of action does not offset the fact that it's a mu-opioid ligand.

Also: People complain about doctors lying that tramadol is non-addictive, and then turn around and believe that kratom is just fine because it's a plant? What?

I gotta say the withdrawal from kratom is not pleasant. I've been to depressed to work. I didn't get withdrawals when I was going on the occasional binge for a week or 3. I would dose massive doses then several times a day. The dependency really kicked in after taking it daily for a long time in a much lower dosage. Now if I don't have at least a half a tablespoon in the morning I feel off all day. The main withdrawal symptom is depression\apathy. That's why I've been gradually weaning down. I may quit or I may just stick to a teaspoon in the morning.

 

[EarthBounded]

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d (lots), versus the number of people who have been hospitalized from kratom induced liver failure (I can count on one hand the number of reported kratom hospitalizations).

Kratom is an opioid. Opioids cause dependence. End of story. Just because it has other modes of action does not offset the fact that it's a mu-opioid ligand. Just because the stimulation offsets some of the sedation, doesn't mean you get a "get out of W/D free" card.

Also: People complain about doctors lying that tramadol, an opioid, is non-addictive, and then turn around and believe that kratom is just fine and won't form dependency because it's a plant? What? Does the same logic make opium OK to consume on the regular? Did you know tramadol is a natural product too? I bet if we had discovered mitragynine instead of tramadol, people would be moaning and whining about how much it sucks instead...

Hmmm whatever like I said not going to argue with the king ( Seiko, I actually seriously respect your work terpene chemist if I remember correct ). Kratom is too " new " to MOST of the population, I don't care how brilliant one is this drug is too new in it's research phase to make any conclusions... I won't argue with the KNOWN fact this is a mu-opiod ligand, however when this plant contain's 20+ VERY active alkaloids it is hard to reach conclusion, how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

Not to mention all the Bulk alkaloid extracts, it is pretty simple to ingest the equivalent of 25 grams of pure plant matter daily, and I guarantee many user's here are using extract's and Isolations of the active alkaloids.

I just thought this statement was a little overboard:

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there. It's just harder for most people to consume 25 plus grams of plant material in a sitting

Has anyone had to go on a SUB or Methadone treatment for Kratom? Do Kratom user's need Iboga as bad as a Heroin addict? I was simply STATING it would be very very complicated for a user to reach this point... Which is pretty much what your saying but some BL's may think oh well if Kratom is as addictive as Heroin then Im just gonna get my gear and some bags of H...

 

[d1ahp]

I won't argue with the KNOWN fact this is a mu-opiod ligand, however when this plant contain's 20+ VERY active alkaloids it is hard to reach conclusion, how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

I think that fact that people report inability to stop and withdrawals upon cessation makes it pretty clear that it's addictive. If one of the alkaloids helped prevent addiction then people wouldn't get addicted. There are plenty of kratom addiction stories out there.

 

[sekio]

Kratom is too " new " to MOST of the population, I don't care how brilliant one is this drug is too new in it's research phase to make any conclusions...

It's been known to Western researchers in the literature since at least the late 80s and has been distributed on-line from the mid-2000s onwards, so we're coming up to about 10 years of "street" usage now. It's not an unknown compound. I'm pretty confident in saying that kratom is addictive.

how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

The major alkaloid in almost every strain of kratom is mitragynine, and there are perhaps 5 or 6 other common ones present in pharmacologically relevant concentrations. There's speciogynine (an isomer of mitragynine), rhynchophylline (NMDA antagonist), dehydro-mitragynine, etc. None of them are miracle panaceas, and even then, I can tell you that straight up kratom alkaloid extract will produce dependence in mouse, rat, dog, chimps, and humans. So there's nothing to suggest that there is a mystery miracle alkaloid that makes kratom non-addictive.

Has anyone had to go on a SUB or Methadone treatment for Kratom? Do Kratom user's need Iboga as bad as a Heroin addict?

I imagine if you go through 100gm a day of the stuff, yeah. The dose matters and the frequency of use matters, obviously. If you snorted 10 milligrams of heroin once a month would you get dependent? Probably not. 10mg once every hour? Yeah.

 

[EarthBounded]

I'm not arguing with you, however you mods will take things to the grave.... So in that case we can all learn ( like usual )

The major alkaloid in almost every strain of kratom is mitragynine, and there are perhaps 5 or 6 other common ones present in pharmacologically relevant concentrations. There's speciogynine (an isomer of mitragynine), rhynchophylline (NMDA antagonist), dehydro-mitragynine, etc. None of them are miracle panaceas, and even then, I can tell you that straight up kratom alkaloid extract will produce dependence in mouse, rat, dog, chimps, and humans. So there's nothing to suggest that there is a mystery miracle alkaloid that makes kratom non-addictive.

You fail to mention any Yohimbine alkaloids, I am not saying this is a panacea ( solution ) and I have no idea the content of Yohimbine alkaloids in Mitragyna Speciosa however it is tiny things like this that may " throw off " a possible long term addiction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2057541 <---- good read regardless

Kratom has seen therapeutic use in Thai ethnomedicine as an antidiarrhoeal, as a treatment for opioid dependence, and rarely to increase the duration of coitus.[21][22][23]

Kratom and its derivatives have been used as a substitute for opium as well as an aid for the management of opium withdrawal. - Wikipedia Mitragyna Speciosa

It's been known to Western researchers in the literature since at least the late 80s and has been distributed on-line from the mid-2000s onwards, so we're coming up to about 10 years of "street" usage now. It's not an unknown compound. I'm pretty confident in saying that kratom is addictive.

"The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans, including its efficacy and safety, are not well-studied"<---- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

I imagine if you go through 100gm a day of the stuff, yeah. The dose matters and the frequency of use matters, obviously. If you snorted 10 milligrams of heroin once a month would you get dependent? Probably not. 10mg once every hour? Yeah.

This statement only refer's to the μ-opiod receptors, so YES I agree. HOWEVER these are not the only receptor's being contacted by the plant. I am simply stating we do not know enough.

Personally I do not believe that Kratom can Treat opiate / opioid dependency, that is a tad bit ludacris. But I stand firm IMO that some of the other compounds inside Mitragyna Speciosa MAY HELP PREVENT a human from becoming addicted to the herb, It's a cocktail of alkaloids.

I will leave it at this

The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans are not well studied. <----- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

Therefore we should all be cautious.

AGAIN SEIKO:

I just thought your initial comment sounded as if Heroin and Kratom have the same safety profile, I just did not want there to be any lack of information present if someone were to just scroll across this thread.

EB

 

[al-laddin]

what about te ceiling effect seiko? And the opiod antagonism action. These are some of the properties that are argued by pro kratom people, people with first hand experience like me. And I can tell you from first hand experience that often times ,the severity of it depends on the strain, I can get severe dysphoria trying to catch a more intense buzz. I mean I would have been fine at 6 grams but I decided to take three more, Now I feel HORRIBLE. Ive always thought that this ceiling effect was a pretty good preventative action......I can tell you first hand that I still use the same amount daily that I used when I first started two years ago and I believe it to be because of the other active alkaloids....If I were taking the same amount of oxy just as gratuitisley as I take kratom I think Id be in much more trouble. Might I add that I also use hard opiates once or twice a month? Kratom gives me a cushioned landing. Ive been doing this for at least two years and my dosage to kratom has not inreased, although it does fluctuate... Ive been using a total of 10-14 grams a day for 2 years. No side effects. Withdrawal has been shitty but mild and lasts about 3/4 days. I strongly believe kratom is a self-regulating opiod I dont know if mytraginine itself or its the other alkaloids present but something in it doesnt allow you to party too hard with it. It absolutly is NOT NEARLY as addictive as true opiates. I beliueve most people who use kratom will step over to the dark side and use extracts....once you do that...you are no longer playing in the safety zone.

 

[al-laddin]

I'm not arguing with you, however you mods will take things to the grave.... So in that case we can all learn ( like usual )



You fail to mention any Yohimbine alkaloids, I am not saying this is a panacea ( solution ) and I have no idea the content of Yohimbine alkaloids in Mitragyna Speciosa however it is tiny things like this that may " throw off " a possible long term addiction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2057541 <---- good read regardless

Kratom has seen therapeutic use in Thai ethnomedicine as an antidiarrhoeal, as a treatment for opioid dependence, and rarely to increase the duration of coitus.[21][22][23]

Kratom and its derivatives have been used as a substitute for opium as well as an aid for the management of opium withdrawal. - Wikipedia Mitragyna Speciosa



"The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans, including its efficacy and safety, are not well-studied"<---- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa





This statement only refer's to the μ-opiod receptors, so YES I agree. HOWEVER these are not the only receptor's being contacted by the plant. I am simply stating we do not know enough.

Personally I do not believe that Kratom can Treat opiate / opioid dependency, that is a tad bit ludacris. But I stand firm IMO that some of the other compounds inside Mitragyna Speciosa MAY HELP PREVENT a human from becoming addicted to the herb, It's a cocktail of alkaloids.

I will leave it at this

The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans are not well studied. <----- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

Therefore we should all be cautious.

AGAIN SEIKO:

I just thought your initial comment sounded as if Heroin and Kratom have the same safety profile, I just did not want there to be any lack of information present if someone were to just scroll across this thread.

EB

YOu can become dependant on kratom but its action does not allow the dependancy to be AS SEVERE as traditional opiods..That the key here. And kratom seems to be extremely easy to taper from....why is this? If I go on an opiod binge....I use till they run out...one after another..with kratom theres no way I can do that, thus my only option is to taper.....Seiko saying that its the same thing is UTTER BS and it seems that he must have a personal issue with the leaf without knowing much about it. It VERY MUCH CAN treat DEPENDANCE and it DOES....go over to opiophile forums and see for yourself!

 

[al-laddin]

On that note steer clear of extracts!!

 

[burn out]

YOu can become dependant on kratom but its action does not allow the dependancy to be AS SEVERE as traditional opiods..That the key here. And kratom seems to be extremely easy to taper from....why is this? If I go on an opiod binge....I use till they run out...one after another..with kratom theres no way I can do that, thus my only option is to taper.....Seiko saying that its the same thing is UTTER BS and it seems that he must have a personal issue with the leaf without knowing much about it. It VERY MUCH CAN treat DEPENDANCE and it DOES....go over to opiophile forums and see for yourself!

Yes I agree. I am a heroin addict who switched to kratom, I then tapered my kratom (which was MUCH easier than tapering heroin) and am now on day one no kratom. I took some DXM and feel pretty good. Slight WD but the DXM seems to be really taking the edge off. There is simply no way I would get off heroin this easy, kratom is a godsend.

 

[al-laddin]

Thank you burn out for your feedback....I have three friends who used kratom to get off of much heavier substances. One was IV heroin. On was a close family member so it does bother me when people act like just because its an opiod that it cant be used medicinally to get off heavier drugs. I mean shit suboxone is an opioid but its abuse potential is far less than that of oxy or heroin, and from what I understand kratom acts similarly as an opioid antagonist. Clearly it is not as recreational as heroin

 

[EarthBounded]

Ok in a nutshell I would say if you were to Isolate pure mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine and take dosages equivalent to traditional opioids then yes you would have the exact same addiction and withdrawal problems as these are obvious μ-opioid agonist compounds.

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there.

It would be more proper to state "mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine are just as addictive and dependence forming as ever other opioid out there"

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d (lots)

Speculation, just like users who complain about w/d from cannabis here on BL.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I can personally attest that kratom has withdrawal symptoms, but they are not severe. Kratom seems to be 90% psychologically addictive, meaning that habitual use results in mostly psychological withdrawal similar to being forced to stop gambling, shopping, having sex, etc. after forming habits and expectations of those activities. It doesn't actually make me physically ill when I cease use cold-turkey. No pains, shits, cramps, aches, fevers, nothing of the sort. I only experience cravings, and minor insomnia and restlessness that is easily overcome with 50-100mg diphenhydramine or cannabis. Oral cannabis seems to stop/mask any "withdrawal" effects completely. I'd imagine a benzo would too. After 2-3 days, normalcy returns in full swing, and cravings are pretty much reduced to "fond memories" as in "Yeah, I'm sure it would be nice right now, but I have none, so...oo look shiny squirrel!!"

Kratom withdrawal, FOR ME, comes from the simple fact that it has proven to be SO useful to my daily life that it just sucks to not have any, like driving to work everyday and then one day getting a flat and now you must walk. It sucks simply because you got used to the convenience of a car, but it doesn't mean life loses it's purpose because you lost a convenience.


I do believe it comes down to will power. If you are weak-willed, have nothing going on in your life, no hobbies or involvement, no confidence and nothing to identify with, then yeah, something as simple as an anxiety-relieving relative of coffee, or a stubborn girlfriend, or a flat tire might be the thing to ruin your life. I dose on various potent strains at 8-9g weighed out, 2-3x every single day, usually after I wake up (in place of coffee) and around lunch time, and then occasionally after work. I have stopped this habit cold-turkey multiple times, from 100mph to 0 FLAT, and the absolute worst thing that happens was the first night can be restless, which again, was remedied by some Benedryl. I've also experienced periods of abstinence where absolutely NO negative symptoms arrive at all. As a matter of fact, when I do stop, I always notice a spike in creativity, I notice my environment becomes more colorful and vibrant (probably due to constantly having constricted pupils), music takes on more spacial quality akin to low doses of psychedelics! That's a withdrawal!?! Sign me up!!

We're not talkin' about the devil's lasso here......but as always, everyone is different.



If kratom really does have it's grip on your life, then I would try to supplement some other equally as benign herbs and ethnos like kava and kanna to help you withdraw and taper off.

 

[EarthBounded]

If kratom really does have it's grip on your life, then I would try to supplement some other equally as benign herbs and ethnos like kava and kanna to help you withdraw and taper off.

I am not too familiar with Kanna but supplementing Kava daily is a terrible idea.

 

[al-laddin]

Really^^^ I thought Kava was not habit forming...it does act on GABA in a minor way....nothing like benzos. From what I understand its relatively harmless but you probably don't want to take it for years at a time

 

[Mycophile]

SEATTLE STRANGER: I couldn't quote you for some odd reason.



I just wanted to point out that this is how it is FOR YOU but I've read many accounts on here saying otherwise.

I personally am a noob to Kratom, having only done it on 7 seperate days, but others in this thread have referred to Kratom withdrawal as "a living hell with joint pain, restlessness, anxiety, insomnia, naseau, hot and cold flashes" and other symptoms.

I'm sure you know more about Kratom than me, but I wouldn't want someone inexperienced reading this to assume that Kratom withdrawals are easy and no big deal to go through.

I personally am going to assume that they are terrible so I don't ever have to go through them because if they are as bad as SOME posters have said they are FOR THEM...that's more than I want to have to go through.

It sounds like your personal brain and body chemistry makes Kratom withdrawal easy for you, but just from what I've read I don't believe that Kraotm is 90% psychologically addictive only, as it's an opioid and opioid's have serious physical withdrawal symptoms.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Again soooo much conflicting info.

I definitely thought sekios statement that its a bad as heroin to be extreme and seemed more related to personal bias than actual factual basis. Maybe you had some bad withdrawals from it?

What no1 else has mentioned yet in kratoms defense to sekios attack are that its only a partial agonist right? so that alone means it will be less addictive doesnt it?

It was good to see some others give a more level headed defense of it.

I thought recently that is the trouble with anecdotal reports. However can we not say that its obviously less harmful over a population cos in thailand it has been used for over a thousand years and its a non event for them right? If it was as bad as heroin then there would be a ton of literature over the centuries telling of the devil of kratom wouldnt there?

Just like how all since the written word has been in the western world ppl have spoken of the trouble alcohol causes.

From what i gather kratom is indeed alot more like weed in that sense in that the mentions ive seen were just passing acknowlegments that it exists and nothing more.

Interested to hear what others think of this theory cos i am not really versed on whether it indeed has been worthy of mention in the eastern world but thats the gist ive gotten; that its just a non event due to its relative safety profile.

 

[Beavesmx44]

Bottom line: it has all the same w/d effects as other opiates when abused daily just to a lesser extent. Don't abuse it and it won't abuse you. Don't let anyone else's experience be your final decision on trying it or not. If you want to....great. If not.......great. You won't respond the same as anyone else posting here so............

 

[Mycophile]

Again soooo much conflicting info.

I definitely thought sekios statement that its a bad as heroin to be extreme and seemed more related to personal bias than actual factual basis. Maybe you had some bad withdrawals from it?

What no1 else has mentioned yet in kratoms defense to sekios attack are that its only a partial agonist right? so that alone means it will be less addictive doesnt it?

It was good to see some others give a more level headed defense of it.

I thought recently that is the trouble with anecdotal reports. However can we not say that its obviously less harmful over a population cos in thailand it has been used for over a thousand years and its a non event for them right? If it was as bad as heroin then there would be a ton of literature over the centuries telling of the devil of kratom wouldnt there?

Just like how all since the written word has been in the western world ppl have spoken of the trouble alcohol causes.

From what i gather kratom is indeed alot more like weed in that sense in that the mentions ive seen were just passing acknowlegments that it exists and nothing more.

Interested to hear what others think of this theory cos i am not really versed on whether it indeed has been worthy of mention in the eastern world but thats the gist ive gotten; that its just a non event due to its relative safety profile.

Sekio didn't say it was "just as harmful" as heroin he said it was "just as dependence forming"...obviously he knows there have been no overdoses from Kratom alone and only a few deaths by mixing it with other substances.

And I think he knows more about it than probably anyone else commenting here, but I don't really understand why he'd say that.

I personally will say that it's true that Kratom has a "ceiling effect" just from the 9 times I've tried it, and that if you take just the LITTLEST bit too much you will feel like absolute shit and all the euphoria goes away.

I don't know if that happens with heroin, but I doubt it, and it doesn't seem to happen with opiates like Oxycodone where in my experience the high just kept getting more intense the more I took...so that would seem to be a deterent to people overdoing Kratom in single doses, but not in terms of the frequency that they dose.

Sekio has mentioned using Kratom, so I don't think he sounds biased against it, but I don't know jack shit really.

But I didn't like Seatle Stranger's saying that he didn't think that Kratom withdrawal is a big deal and that he compared it to the impact of a "flat tire or stubborn girlfriend" on a person's life, because it clearly is highly addictive from the accounts of many people on here and obviously that is just how it is FOR HIM personally.

 

[burn out]

well after two days in wd i caved in and bought a bag of kratom. while it is nothing like quitting heroin, kratom wd is bad enough that i have no energy, no desire to do anything if i go without it. i guess i am gonna try to taper down more by spacing out my doses as much as possible.

 

[spadedstars]

I tried kratom once. I was given it for pain and instead I spent most the day sick as hell. I took 4-ho-met to try to help and it didn't. I know that I will be coming into more kratom and I'm not sure if I should go ahead and try it again but in a smaller dose or just forget about it completely.