Kratom The Kratom Megathread

[gingerbaker]

I'd really like to try this but I am shitting myself at the thought of 'physical addiction'. All my drugs of choice in the past have just been psychologically addictive...dopamine stims being my particular groove.

I definitely don't have a track record for being addicted to stuff but this sounds like it could be easy to make a habit of. ie at least with coke it was prohibitively expensive and illegal etc. I don't need outside forces rather than exercising willpower but I am very pessimistic and always thinking of worst case scenarios, but likewise the life of sobriety is also driving me insane; feels like a double bind, fucked either way.

Nowadays I find any sort of comedown intolerable so have had to put stims on the shelf.

It seems that physical addiction is characteristic of downers...nearly all/all of them have it don't they. ghb, phenibut, benzoes, opiates, alcohol. Why is it that downers are physically addictive but uppers arent even the strongest ones? Or is it more a case that all drugs are but you just can't take uppers long enough in a run for them to cause the same levels of physical addiction which downers do?

I seem to have a very paranoid disposition and so even if a downer chills me out for the duration Im on it I worry that each time I take it Id be creeping closer and closer to physical addiction. Is it like having a stim comedown but lasting much much longer? If that is the case then it defeats the object of me wanting to take downers. Ive had benzoes before but I didnt enjoy the feeling, only used them for sleep once or twice after stims so no worry of getting addicted to them. I am scared that if I like kratom each time I take it Ill just be further reinforcing a bad habit and pushing myself closer to dreaded physical addiction. Is this a realistic fear?

It sucks cos Im really gagging for a new drug of choice and the non addictive alternatives I know of really suck shit- kanna- yaaaawn booooring serotonin dump, weed- nono for my already highly strung personality, kava kava- only lasts like 15 minutes and don't really like the 'stoning' effect prefer clear headed highs. Ppl give me the stupid empty phrase that I should get a hobby or go running. I tried that junk it doesnt cut it! don't give me that shit! and dont you dare give me the 'get therapy' line! I'm not paying 100 dollars an hour just to have my ego stroked! thats what a good stimulant is for and does it way better!

First of all, kava does NOT "suck shit" if you're doing it right which it doesn't sound like you are. Order real root from a good vendor and work through the reverse tolerance and I can guarantee you that you will find the best non-addictive substance (even less psychological dependence than MJ, and literally zero withdrawal of ANY kind).

That being said, Kratom withdrawal is very mild compared to real opioids if used reasonably. I would recommend kava over kratom if you are concerned with withdrawal, and hell, there are even somewhat "upper"-like kava strains (Hawaiian strains, Solomon's Island, CO2 extract, Fijian Waka from certain vendors, among others). If you don't want as much of a sedative effect (if those give you too much "stony" feeling), then try kratom because that will definitely have more of the effect you're after (again, depending on the strain).

 

[odjowjdjia]

cheers. Not to hijack the thread but i cant send pms... how long does kava last for you? cos for the 15 minutes it lasted for me the times i tried it wasnt worth chugging all that junk and even increasing dose/redosing wasnt realistic cos it would make me more and more nauseous.

Ye so worst case scenarios regarding kratom in terms of withdrawal how could you explain them to me if i have no experience of other opiates so i could get a reference point? aches and pains are alright but its the depression i am afraid of cos i already have constant pervasive depression and wanted to use it on and off as an acute anti depressant as an alternative to becoming a 'carreer' pharmaceutical user if i went to the doctors. i have just bad bouts of depression so i dont wanna be taking some chemical shit 24/7 doing who knows what for my long term brain chemistry. i thought kratom could be a natural alternative that would work right away and i could use just when in a deep bout or now and then to keep me upbeat and productive to prevent future bouts- its just a break, some kind of sancrtuary that im after that would alleviate my mental anguish. but if the rebound after cessasion causes bad depression like post mdma mental blitzkrieg that was just so aweful i never want to feel like that again.

Also in terms of avoiding the physical dependency is a good rule of thumb just not to do it while the previous dose is in your system? that would mean a cpl of days for near complete removal right?

I like to play it better safe than sorry so maybe ill try and get something out of kava kava before trying kratom. Also ive figured if i can make something of a non dependence inducing substance i will also have something as a safety net if i decide to try a more addictive substance.

First of all, kava does NOT "suck shit" if you're doing it right which it doesn't sound like you are. Order real root from a good vendor and work through the reverse tolerance and I can guarantee you that you will find the best non-addictive substance (even less psychological dependence than MJ, and literally zero withdrawal of ANY kind).

That being said, Kratom withdrawal is very mild compared to real opioids if used reasonably. I would recommend kava over kratom if you are concerned with withdrawal, and hell, there are even somewhat "upper"-like kava strains (Hawaiian strains, Solomon's Island, CO2 extract, Fijian Waka from certain vendors, among others). If you don't want as much of a sedative effect (if those give you too much "stony" feeling), then try kratom because that will definitely have more of the effect you're after (again, depending on the strain).

 

[liftedgift]

Its good that you are worried about addiction. However if you can use kratom maybe 2 or 3 times a week never consecutive days. I really doubt you would develop a strong physical addiction. It took me about 2 weeks of daily use to feel the physical withdrawal. But for me, dealing with it is better than worrying about what day it is and when I can take some next.

The withdrawal is aches/pains/runny nose/extreme extreme fatigue for me. Absolutely zero motivation to do anything. Any GABAergic takes a lot of it away. So if you did get to the point where you were physically dependent. You could use benzos for 2 days/ then maybe phenibut for 2 days. Or you could just taper.

As I said its good that you are afraid as it does have a withdrawal that is no picnic. But I really think you are overestimating the time and the severity of the withdrawal.

Oh and Kava can help with withdrawals too, there is a thread discussing the best way to take kava. I'm still new to kava as well and find that the best results are with the regular ground root. Extracts seem to only last for 20-30 mins for me. I have done kava multiple times and only one time did I get this overwhelming drunk feeling that I had never gotten before. That was when I would just put the ground root powder in my lip and let it sit there like a pinch of tobacco. There are better ways with making it into drinks and such I just haven't tried yet.

 

[gingerbaker]

Its good that you are worried about addiction. However if you can use kratom maybe 2 or 3 times a week never consecutive days. I really doubt you would develop a strong physical addiction. It took me about 2 weeks of daily use to feel the physical withdrawal. But for me, dealing with it is better than worrying about what day it is and when I can take some next.

The withdrawal is aches/pains/runny nose/extreme extreme fatigue for me. Absolutely zero motivation to do anything. Any GABAergic takes a lot of it away. So if you did get to the point where you were physically dependent. You could use benzos for 2 days/ then maybe phenibut for 2 days. Or you could just taper.

Have you ever had success with using stems and veins to help taper/combat withdrawal? Also, how much were you using when you had those symptoms and was it extract of leaf?

 

[odjowjdjia]

Cheers for info. In terms of usage didnt you or someone else say that it doesnt cause cravings like other drugs? I mean its all very well and good saying only do a cpl times a week but when you're high often the rules seem like a ridiculous precaution and before you know it you are kicking yourself for getting carried away. was like that with stims but im a noob to downers so wouldnt know how it is on that front. I know ive read that kratom is good for it not producing cravings like other drugs. As ive said tho in the past self control hasnt been a prob for me.

Also does it have a hangover of sorts if you overdo it? I think thats a good thing as it would ward me against wanting to do it all the time or overdoing it. I dont mean the naesea or whatever in a single dose but like a next day hangover? and can it be avoided thru moderate usage? like how with beer you can have two and not feel it the next day but more than that is pushing it. Thats one reason i hate benzoes in that any dose would leave me feeling like a zombie for all the next day.

Its good that you are worried about addiction. However if you can use kratom maybe 2 or 3 times a week never consecutive days. I really doubt you would develop a strong physical addiction. It took me about 2 weeks of daily use to feel the physical withdrawal. But for me, dealing with it is better than worrying about what day it is and when I can take some next.

The withdrawal is aches/pains/runny nose/extreme extreme fatigue for me. Absolutely zero motivation to do anything. Any GABAergic takes a lot of it away. So if you did get to the point where you were physically dependent. You could use benzos for 2 days/ then maybe phenibut for 2 days. Or you could just taper.

As I said its good that you are afraid as it does have a withdrawal that is no picnic. But I really think you are overestimating the time and the severity of the withdrawal.

Oh and Kava can help with withdrawals too, there is a thread discussing the best way to take kava. I'm still new to kava as well and find that the best results are with the regular ground root. Extracts seem to only last for 20-30 mins for me. I have done kava multiple times and only one time did I get this overwhelming drunk feeling that I had never gotten before. That was when I would just put the ground root powder in my lip and let it sit there like a pinch of tobacco. There are better ways with making it into drinks and such I just haven't tried yet.

 

[gingerbaker]

Cheers for info. In terms of usage didnt you or someone else say that it doesnt cause cravings like other drugs? I mean its all very well and good saying only do a cpl times a week but when you're high often the rules seem like a ridiculous precaution and before you know it you are kicking yourself for getting carried away. was like that with stims but im a noob to downers so wouldnt know how it is on that front. I know ive read that kratom is good for it not producing cravings like other drugs. As ive said tho in the past self control hasnt been a prob for me.

Also does it have a hangover of sorts if you overdo it? I think thats a good thing as it would ward me against wanting to do it all the time or overdoing it. I dont mean the naesea or whatever in a single dose but like a next day hangover? and can it be avoided thru moderate usage? Thats one reason i hate benzoes in that any dose would leave me feeling like a zombie for all the next day.

If you're referring to kava, then yes, it has been shown to have anti-craving effects.

Kratom does have some NMDA antagonist activity, but there not enough to claim that it reduces cravings on a pharmacological level. That being said, it is much less addicting than other substances that bind to μ-opioid receptors. I've had a migraine-like hangover the 1st time I tried it, but only that one time and it seems to have been coincidental although I wouldn't doubt there is a hangover if used in excess. In fact, it seems to actually have an "afterglow" the next day where you actually feel much better the next day.

 

[odjowjdjia]

ye i was referring to kratom. i have experience with kava and already know how benign it is .

its quite confusing all the Ks of similar types of compounds- kava kratom and kanna.

If you're referring to kava, then yes, it has been shown to have anti-craving effects.

Kratom does have some NMDA antagonist activity, but there not enough to claim that it reduces cravings on a pharmacological level. That being said, it is much less addicting than other substances that bind to μ-opioid receptors. I've had a migraine-like hangover the 1st time I tried it, but only that one time and it seems to have been coincidental although I wouldn't doubt there is a hangover if used in excess. In fact, it seems to actually have an "afterglow" the next day where you actually feel much better the next day.

 

[liftedgift]

I started using kratom because I was put on probation. I hated being sober at the time...might have been going through benzo PAWS now that I think about it but anyway I found kratom and it gave me so much motivation. I started with plain leaf so it wasn't like some blow you back in your seat high, it really helped me at work as I loved talking to people and it gave me so much energy. So yes I did crave it for the motivation.

I've ordered stem and vein a few times and had success with it. It definitely feels different, and yes it would be good for a taper.

I mostly use plain leaf, I use to indulge in extracts pretty often maybe once a week or once every two weeks. But I haven't had any extracts for a few months now though as they are just too expensive for me right now. They are really good though, it is a really nice experience when you get good extracts.

As for a hangover, the only time I really experienced a noticeable hangover was when I ate 30-40grams the first time I tried kratom. It was horrible as I couldn't fall asleep for some reason, I just kept waking up really messed up and had to go to work the next morning. Although I started using daily probably within a month of first trying it.

Just make sure you order from a good vendor, when I first started ordering kratom I would get a good batch and then order from someone else and get a bad batch. I thought my tolerance was so high that I wasn't feeling it...I still have nearly 500 grams of some god awful kratom. Worst stuff I've ever had. The only good it did me was lower my tolerance to basically nothing after two weeks of eating it. So I tapered without knowing it lol.

Try out different strains. Ive had a few but I always loved Bali. Thai for me is really good at first but if I keep eating it I get these weird moments of intense frustration. Some people say that all the strains feel the same but they all have their differences imo. Malaysian never did me good. Maeng Da is pretty sedating for me.

One thing though, it seems the more you use kratom the more stimulating it is. As Bali for me now always gets me going ready to work as it used to make me fall asleep.

 

[gingerbaker]

How exactly is it good for a taper? What about using a small amount with the normal amount of leaf (would that decrease tolerance)? What are the effects like by themselves?

 

[liftedgift]

Yes you can taper by just lowering the amount gradually with any leaf. The reason people prefer maybe stem and vein is because it can be weaker. Because when you taper with a strong leaf or any drug for that matter, you are probably going to fight off temptation to get a "high". With a weaker leaf you find an amount you can stave off withdrawals without actually getting a good feeling. Maybe with stem and vein it doesn't really give you euphoria at any dose and it just fights off withdrawals. Not saying stem and vein can't get you feeling good as I liked it.

Now you could find this amount with any leaf I suppose but the voice in your head might be saying well if I just take a few more grams I can get euphoria.

 

[2112acid]

Hey BL, I have been researching Kratom for the past couple of weeks and have decided to use it to take place of a daily smoking (mj) habit for a while. I do not like the experiences I have had with opiates, but I do like a buzz and some mild stimulation. I feel like that is what mj gives me at the moment, my tolerance is stupid and i need a 3+ month break badly. The kratom, I assume will help me with physical labor pains, stimulation and just adding some more light to my day.

Id like to share my experience from over the weekend, got Maeng Da Thai red powder on friday. Saturday I dosed around 8g, felt great but also had bad nausea within an hour, puked, felt pretty good for the next couple of hours and redosed at 2g for a very relaxed evening until I tried to drink a cider and threw up again. Sunday, I dosed at 5g after I woke up, puked within an hour again, felt great for the rest of the day dosed twice more with breaks of four hours. I use tobacco daily (usually dip, sometimes smoking), for the whole weekend I had no desire to use any tobacco which is incredibly strange. I had no desire to drink either, which is weird because I usually do on weekends. I havn't really been that high at all, just a mild euphoria (was more than mild on the 8g, before I threw up), a nice stimulating feeling to the head and a nice refreshing energy flowing through me.

The worst thing by far has been the uncomfortable stomach feeling (like a bunch of oil sitting in my stomach), and that only happened when I took too much (8g, then 5g). Like many have said in this thread, I think there is definitely a sweet spot that may be different for various people and I intend to find it for myself. I am most definitely going to try the tea, the toss and wash method is ok, but like others have said do you really want all those grainy particles sitting in your stomach? Im really happy that i have no desire to use tobacco, ive actually been trying to quit for the last few months or so, and I think this is finally it. I listen to quite a lot of music daily, and it definitely has an improved quality to it while on Kratom (somehow different than thc). I havnt been turning on my heat which is weird, im much more comfortable in the cold which is unusual for me.

One thing I am interested in is what is the most cost effective strain (generally speaking, I understand not every vendor has the same exact strength of strains). From what i've read so far it seems to be 15x extract, bali, Maeng Da and Indo. Also i gather that most of the premium strains/premium extracts are definitely not cost effective, would like to hear some more opinions anyway.
thanks for all the info guys.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

^IME Bali reigns supreme when it comes to cost effectiveness as well as terms of effects. Maeng Da is grossly overpriced, its does have a nice euphoria but it's very short lived. The only extract that I've found to be worth the money is Ultra Enhanced Indo or UEI but in the long run it's better to stick with high quality leaf as extracts will send your tolerance through the roof. The beautiful thing about kratom is that you can take it daily for long peroids of time without developing much of a tolerance(this was my experience anyways, others may disagree). After coming off of suboxone I was able to keep my daily intake at 25 grams for 8-9 months.

 

[2112acid]

Damn, well 25 grams seems insane to me, I dont think I top 10grams daily, but then again I have never had an opiate tolerance so that is probably a huge part of it. Anyway, just wanted to give an update, very happy with what Kratom has helped me achieve in a short time, I was able to stop smoking (mj) without much trouble, did get a bit pissed for a week but who wouldn't, the Kratom kept me in a fairly good mood and no back pains. I also quit tabacco at the same time without much trouble, I did jones for a couple days but it wasn't too bad while I was on Kratom and my mind was usually preoccupied with other things. I think thats what is so great about Kratom, it keeps you clear minded and sharp, in that state I always keep myself occupied, usually with a book, practicing drawing/music, listening to music, browsing the web, having a retarded conversation with someone on this forum (thought they were someone completely different, it was a weird experience), and playing some video games (which was usually my favorite past-time while high). I've probably bee dosing around 3grams 2-3 times a day depending on how I feel, usually twice once in the morning and once after work. It is an awesome work aid (for physical labor and writing/drawing), kept me sharp and in a good mood with plenty of energy. I woke up a couple times with a headache in the back of my skull, but I can attribute that to anything, not just Kratom and I dont think I ever really got hungover while on it. Really the only downside to this plant is the texture, and the insolubility to water. Many times just due to lack of time, I had to do the Toss&Wash method... and man every time I can feel it just sitting at the bottom of my stomach not really getting processed through, a very uncomfortable feeling, but I only *really* noticed it when my dose was above 3g. If it just dissolved in water, im sure it would not have the same grainy effect of settling in your stomach. Im planning on finishing this current batch, then just going sober and seeing how that is. Either way, I had a very positive experience with this stuff, I would recommend it to anyone that needs an extra stimulant type boost or needs something to come off of opiates/ease pain. Also I never read it about being an aid to quit tabacco, but anyone looking to quit try it out it might work for you like it did for me... goodbye, five year tobacco habit, ye shall be missed.

 

[《Plasticity》]

^IME Bali reigns supreme when it comes to cost effectiveness as well as terms of effects. Maeng Da is grossly overpriced, its does have a nice euphoria but it's very short lived. The only extract that I've found to be worth the money is Ultra Enhanced Indo or UEI but in the long run it's better to stick with high quality leaf as extracts will send your tolerance through the roof. The beautiful thing about kratom is that you can take it daily for long peroids of time without developing much of a tolerance(this was my experience anyways, others may disagree). After coming off of suboxone I was able to keep my daily intake at 25 grams for 8-9 months.

I agree with everything said in this post

However realize that you may be trading one addiction for another and this one actually brings withdrawals with it. Kratom withdrawals aren't as bad as opiate withdrawals but they still suck pretty bad. I started off at 5 grams a day and now I average around 24g now but that's due to increasing the number of doses per day as opposed to increasing the actual dose much. Also kratom synergizes with weed like no other mu agonist for some reason so know that your likely gonna walk outta this with a cannabis and kratom addiction if you go back to smoking herb. If it helps you quit tobacco then I'd say go for it, IMO kratom is definately the lesser of the two evils and actually provides something in return like energy, mood boost, and euphoria. Also make the switch to the tea, you won't regret it. It just feels so much cleaner and I don't get any nausea anymore. There's no excuse for not making tea really. Just make a whole days worth in the morning and divide up the doses. Takes about 20 minutes and you've got your whole days worth. Make sure you strain the powder through a t-shirt or chesecloth though or it makes the process pretty useless.

 

[crunkazcanbe]

I find kratom to be quite useless. I have a simi tolerance to opiates and thought I would still get a decent buzz from it I bought 25 grams of Ultra Enhanced Indo - UEI for $199 from a respective dealer and to say the least I can take 15 grams of the nasty tasting stuff at once and feel nothing other then dizziness and sickness to the belly and some uncomfortable stimulation. I have tried the x50 extract to same thing I have tried many different types and kinds and find it to cost more then just buy Roxies aka Oxycodone off the street. And absolutely no euphoria from kratom. I did find some research chemicals AH-7921 and MT-45 that actually offer way more euphoria then kratom comparable to codeine . And AH And MT together offers euphoria comparable to oxycodone more then morphine. Oh almost forgot to mention the AH and MT are both alot cheaper then kratom.

 

[1mtx1]

I will be honest i never heard of this stuff, i did look around on the web looks like this has taken the place of spice at most local headshops. I live in Ny and that spice stuff was getting out of hand, i know if i try to go buy it from a local place that is if i can find one i would pay major bucks. I have a few simple questions and i hope you guys can help
1 -does this come up in a drug test?
2- i see this come's in a few different forms such as pill's is there any one that is better?
3 i found Premium Commercial Bali 1oz and White Vein Borneo oz all so i found malay 1 oz what would be best for a feel good upper high that i tend to get when i take a larger amount of pain meds?
4-would i just add this to water how about a cola and drink it? lol thanks

 

[FBI AGENT]

Does anyone know a good dose for Ultra Red Indo? I tried searching but no avail

 

[Hiltoniano]

I will be honest i never heard of this stuff, i did look around on the web looks like this has taken the place of spice at most local headshops. I live in Ny and that spice stuff was getting out of hand, i know if i try to go buy it from a local place that is if i can find one i would pay major bucks. I have a few simple questions and i hope you guys can help
1 -does this come up in a drug test?
2- i see this come's in a few different forms such as pill's is there any one that is better?
3 i found Premium Commercial Bali 1oz and White Vein Borneo oz all so i found malay 1 oz what would be best for a feel good upper high that i tend to get when i take a larger amount of pain meds?
4-would i just add this to water how about a cola and drink it? lol thanks

Mate, read through this thread and previous versions. Read erowid reports and the wiki. All these questions really can be answered with Google easily or already stated in previous parts on this thread or related ones. Sorry not trying to be rude but why waste time if the answers are all out there realistically easy to find gl and nobody knows what strain will effect YOU the most or least but look at some posts and find trends along reports by people on some strains.

 

[2112acid]

I agree with everything said in this post

However realize that you may be trading one addiction for another and this one actually brings withdrawals with it. Kratom withdrawals aren't as bad as opiate withdrawals but they still suck pretty bad. I started off at 5 grams a day and now I average around 24g now but that's due to increasing the number of doses per day as opposed to increasing the actual dose much. Also kratom synergizes with weed like no other mu agonist for some reason so know that your likely gonna walk outta this with a cannabis and kratom addiction if you go back to smoking herb. If it helps you quit tobacco then I'd say go for it, IMO kratom is definately the lesser of the two evils and actually provides something in return like energy, mood boost, and euphoria. Also make the switch to the tea, you won't regret it. It just feels so much cleaner and I don't get any nausea anymore. There's no excuse for not making tea really. Just make a whole days worth in the morning and divide up the doses. Takes about 20 minutes and you've got your whole days worth. Make sure you strain the powder through a t-shirt or chesecloth though or it makes the process pretty useless.

Thanks very much for the warning, I can actually see an addiction setting in right now haha. It's a great little tool, I enjoyed using it very much. I just posted to give people a little recap of my experience, I don't plan on ordering anymore at the moment, possibly in the future but it has helped me out a good deal and I enjoyed using it. Much more than opiates actually, which I have never enjoyed really doing, I mean they feel great cant deny that but I hate basically sinking into my couch for a few hours its so much more enjoyable to be high and doing something active. Yes it did indeed help me quit Tobacco I hope some other people can try this out for themselves, it was an amazing tool I didn't think about having any while I was high. I would indeed also recommend switching to tea to anyone that experiences discomfort in the stomach, it helps although I still got a bit sick when I overdid it with tea. Also in my couple weeks of using it I never really got withdrawl symptoms aside from being a bit groggy, and possibly a headache or two... which was amazing, I didnt use it everyday but 5/7 days of the week with multiple doses.

Im sure me and Kratom will see each other in the future again, hopefully with some cannabis but I definetly see the potential addiction setting in, its easy to get, I can use it all day wherever I am and its just a great fall back for whatever mood im in. It was a nice couple weeks though thats for sure, heres to going sober for the next few months hopefully cheers everyone.

 

[banana king 84]

Merry Christmas BLers, just wanted to add my experience to anyone experimenting with kratom for recreational use. The last week I've used powdered leaf 3 occasions. I used 5 grams premium samsara Wednesday night & felt good, then Christmas Eve got off work at noon and decided to finish the Samasara (5 gram) with 5 gram of Bali, verrry nice, stronger than Vicodin in my experience, felt very sociable & energetic as I finished X-mas shopping, which is something I usually don't enjoy. Well, I took it around 1:30 on an empty stomach, and never ate anything besides the yogurt I mixed the kratom with, & by 5 I was crashing, nauseous, shaky, a little dizzy, and lethargic, which made the earlier euphoria I experienced seem not worth it.
Today I took 8 grams Bali in the morning before breakfast, ate 30 minutes later. Never really got the euphoria but did feel energized, baked some lasagna and felt good but once again got some nausea and lethargy, laid down and you could say I nodded a bit but not really distinguishable from a regular nap. I really thought kratom could be more of a functional high than it's been, the first 3 or 4 hrs are ok but I could do without the side effects. I have been taking it toss and wash or mixing it in a bottle with white grapefruit juice. I would describe the feeling as contentment, a warm feeling over the chest with a nice head buzz, it reminds me of when I smoked cigarettes, the contented feeling in my brain after feeding the addiction, alert and peaceful, not jumping out of my skin and irritable like with too much caffeine. I've had a s much as 13 grams in a day and that made me jittery and uncomfortable but not dizzy or nauseous, so it looks as if my body's acclimating to it. I was never impressed with kratom because I used alcohol as the comparison, and while alcohol used to give me a nice buzz like kratom years ago, today it makes me more tired and sloppy than alert and alive. And kratom's only given me a nice buzz when taken on an empty stomach, not really the most versatile drug I must say. An since it's probably not the best idea to play around with something that messes with your mu receptors like opiates, I'm thinkin' this will be it for me and kratom, oh well