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Kratom The Kratom Megathread

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Most doctors consider Benzo's to be pretty benign over-all, but I've had and seen first-hand what they can do with an addictive personality and when used by an addict. Blackouts, memory loss, abnormal behavior, irrational thoughts/actions.....and I dated a girl who was prescribed Subutex AND Xanax by her doc, which I thought was crazy, and guess what happened? She kept running out way early on her Xanax and then started having full-blown seizures. She had pre-existing brain damage which was a factor but her seizures had stopped until the Xanax use.

They say stimulants are psychologically addictive not physically, and I was a heavy cocaine user for a while (snorted)....I never had physical symptoms, just psychological ones from the neurotransmitter shortages..... But I know a guy who used to push large doses of Meth on a daily basis and when he quit cold turkey, came back with horrific stories of vomiting and crapping all over himself, etc. Though meth is pretty damn toxic so that may be more of an exception to the rule as opposed to coke or pharma stims...


EDIT: By the way, of all of the things that I quit....Cocaine was one of the most psychologically difficult. To this day, if I talk about it out loud or watch a video of someone chopping it up, I get a brain-high...literally, I get a little bit wired like my brain is starting to dump neurotransmitters, my pulse goes up, and I have to use the toilet like I just chain-smoked five cigs with a cup of strong coffee. And it's not just me, some scientists put a handful of stable former addicts into an MRI machine and showed them photos and videos like I mentioned, and the pleasure-regions of their brains lit up like christmas trees. Interesting stuff....
 
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well do a quick google search and the majority of data would disagree with you. Stims are said to be psychologically addictive not physically addictive.

Well, I'll do a google search later, but as for two of those I've already experienced physical withdrawal from them, caffeine and dexedrine, not just mental withdrawal, but actual physical issues.

I have a very hard time believing that meth and crack/cocaine don't cause physical withdrawal symptoms being as addictive as they are.

I have to assume that both of those have physical withdrawal symptoms as well, and that covers some of the most popular stimulants out there.

What I've found over the years of trying things and also reading about substances is that MOST substances, other than MOST hallucinogens, are capable, if taken in HIGH ENOUGH DOSES, of causing physical withdrawal.

I always thought weed wasn't physically addictive, and it is less so than almost any other addictive drug including coffee, but it still can cause WDs.

I thought SSRIs weren't addictive, but I went through SSRI withdrawal once.

I thought Nitrous wasn't physically addictive, then found out it can be.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that someone couldn't get physical withdrawal symptoms from most stimulants out there if seriously abused.

But, it's probably not really that relevant to whether or not someone wants to try Kratom.
 
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Yeah doctors also consider things like tramadol, gabapentin, and SSRI's non addictive but that's complete nonsense. Keep in mind that pharmaceutical companies come to these doctors and convince them that certain medications are simply "non-addictive" when it's not true and it's real shitty when a brainwashed doctor gets you hooked and kicks you off a supposed non-addictive med and when trying to explain how your going through hell they just shrug you off, this happens more often than you would think and it's quite sad.

Stimulants CAN be addictive, in which they do cause both physical and mental withdrawal upon abrubt cessation if used for extended periods of time. My GF went through adderall withdrawal a couple years back and she was miserable.... anhedonia, fatigue, crushing depression, constant sleeping, anxiety etc... anyone who says that stimulants (at least some of them) aren't addictive need to dig a bit deeper for the truth. Hell type in meth withdrawal and see what a lovely time these folk have after kicking a habit. (And no, meth and adderal are not the only physically addictive stimulants)

Two of MANY sources...
NSFW:
http://www.nami.org/Content/Navigat...imulant_Abuse,_Cocaine_and_Mental_Illness.htm

People who regularly abuse stimulants may become addicted (e.g., their body becomes physically dependent on the substance). An addicted person who abruptly stops using stimulants will experience stimulant withdrawal—a group of symptoms causing intense physical and psychological distress. Stimulant withdrawal generally begins within hours of one’s last use but can take longer if a person had been abusing a longer-acting stimulant drug. In most cases, stimulant withdrawal is not a medical emergency and consists of uncomfortable symptoms such as depressed mood, anxiety, sleepiness, abnormal movements (i.e., tremors) and muscle pain. Some people may experience acute suicidal thoughts or behaviors which would likely require emergent psychiatric evaluation. Other people may be at risk for cardiovascular complications which could require medical intervention.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=Withdrawal+Syndromes

Stimulant Withdrawal

Use of stimulants, such as cocaine, crack, amphetamines, and methamphetamines, cause an increase in neurotransmitters in the central nervous system and produce feelings of alertness and increased energy. This initial "rush" is followed by a longer period of neurotransmitter loss, characterized by depression, lethargy, and a craving for more stimulants sometimes called a rebound effect. When a stimulant-dependent individual abstains from stimulant use, withdrawal symptoms, including depression, fatigue, insomnia, and loss of appetite, reflect this drop in neurotransmitter levels. Withdrawal typically takes one to two weeks.
 
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At least to me it's important to differentiate addiction (compulsive need to use drugs & keep increasing the dosage to feel good, drugs that facilitate repeated self administration) from dependance (needing a drug to not withdraw). Fewer people escalate their tramadol dosage to the point that they're doing grams and grams a day. So in that aspect it's less addictive than say, morphine. The same with cannabis, usually people will plateau out at some level where they can't function if they smoke more than a few grams a day or whatever.

The fact of the matter is that every drug will disrupt your body's equilibrium in some way and your body will almost always try to compensate. This holds true even for stuff like antibiotics, vitamins, steroids, etc. which are not thought of as having central activity. I would imagine if you took multivitamins on a regular basis and you stopped one day, you would feel different.
 
At least to me it's important to differentiate addiction (compulsive need to use drugs & keep increasing the dosage to feel good, drugs that facilitate repeated self administration) from dependance (needing a drug to not withdraw). Fewer people escalate their tramadol dosage to the point that they're doing grams and grams a day. So in that aspect it's less addictive than say, morphine. The same with cannabis, usually people will plateau out at some level where they can't function if they smoke more than a few grams a day or whatever.

The fact of the matter is that every drug will disrupt your body's equilibrium in some way and your body will almost always try to compensate. This holds true even for stuff like antibiotics, vitamins, steroids, etc. which are not thought of as having central activity. I would imagine if you took multivitamins on a regular basis and you stopped one day, you would feel different.


Very true. When I stop multivitamins, I feel a difference that I think is more than just placebo. Sometimes I wonder if being so "healthy" can actually be detrimental in the long-run regarding evolutionary adaptations. In other words, if generation after generation, we took amazing care of ourselves nutritionally by eating perfect diets, taking vitamins and other supplements, or whatever... then eventually down the evolutionary line, wouldn't we as a species need these more and be less adapted to not having them? Whereas if we ate like shit all the time, eventually after so many generations, our bodies as a species would be used to sustaining itself in a healthier state, relying less and less on what we put into it. We could eat like shit and still have the ability of Olympic athletes. This is just a hypothesis, but, isn't that a possibility?
 
Sure, that's possible, just that it would take place over many generations. For the individual there is no benefit from eating like shit. You need vitamins and nutrition to make your body work, to provide food for yourself, & to avoid being killed by predators or the elements. It is only ever detrimental if you short yourself nutrients.

Humans have actually evolved the other way around; we don't produce our own vitamin C like most other mammals, because it's been present in the primate diet for thousands of years and so a mutation that knocks out functionality goes essentially unnoticed. The future is probably in transgenic people who make their own DNA for vitamin synthesis proteins rather than waiting for Mother Nature to come up with an effective set of genes through random mutation.

Back to the topic at hand though, the acute withdrawal effects of stimulants are rarely as miserable as withdrawal from opioids and they are also of shorter duration. Usually stimulant withdrawal involves multiple days of sleep, so there's also the benefit you get to be unconscious through most of it...
 
Sure, that's possible, just that it would take place over many generations. For the individual there is no benefit from eating like shit. You need vitamins and nutrition to make your body work, to provide food for yourself, & to avoid being killed by predators or the elements. It is only ever detrimental if you short yourself nutrients.

Humans have actually evolved the other way around; we don't produce our own vitamin C like most other mammals, because it's been present in the primate diet for thousands of years and so a mutation that knocks out functionality goes essentially unnoticed. The future is probably in transgenic people who make their own DNA for vitamin synthesis proteins rather than waiting for Mother Nature to come up with an effective set of genes through random mutation.


Exactly right. That exact Vitamin C issue is exactly what made me first think about this such a long time ago.
 
Fact of the matter is that these substances can be addictive and just because a substance may be deemed "less addictive" by some (which IMO isn't so straightforward being that one mans poison is another mans treasure) that the substance doesn't have the same potential as any other drug or the fact that the drug is addictive to begin with. Tramadol is very much addicitve IMO, the amount of people willing to risk a seizure by breaking the 400mg per 24h rule should say something. You can find people who are dosing 30+ tramadol 50mg tablets (I've heard of 50 tabs per day dependancies which is absurd) so for that individual tramadol may be deemed more addictive than something like oxy though I would agree that when looking at the big picture it's probably seen as a limited substance with less abuse potential. This still doesn't justify a doctor's ignorance to it's supposed non addictive/non habit forming properties, though I'm not saying that anyone feel otherwise, I just think it's rediculous that some doctors are so over their head that they can't take 5 seconds to do a google search and see hundreds if not thousands of people suffering from nasty dependancy/addiction from these medications.

Certain stimulants are extremely compulsive for some people therefor they should be labeled as addictive IMO, they also cause withdrawals in certain individuals who use for extended periods of time therefor they should be labeled as having the ability to cause dependancy. People saying that stimulants can't be addictive (or have the ability to cause dependancy) are sending the wrong idea, especially on a harm reduction board. In fact some may even argue that the addiction potential of certain stims is higher than the dependancy risk being that many people can binge on stimulants for quite a while before developing significant withdrawals. Sure almost anything can be compulsive but when were talking about a drugs addiction/ability to cause dependancy whatever... it should be stressed to the fullest extent what potential for either it may bring. That's just my 2¢ on the matter...

Also I'm gonna have to disagree with the cannabis statement, knowing some serious stoners with massive amounts of cannabis at their disposal (all medicinal of course) I'll say that there is hardly a limit to how much cannabis one can consume and still function. I'm talking edibles in the AM followed by absurd amounts of cannabis ALL DAY every day. Another thing I want to point out is how there are sooo many MXE/ketamine addicts to the point that we've got 15 full threads in the case of MXE and dissociatives are probably the least functional class of drugs on can have an addiction to but that doesn't change a thing for it's addiction potential. Same goes for extreme "let's get blackout drunk everyday" alcoholics. I don't think a drugs true addiction potential can be measured and set as law due to the fact that people have certain draws to certain drugs despite how functional they may be, hell I'd bet that certain people look for drugs that remove them from reality as much as possible.
 
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Yeah I for one, wouldn't be able to function on average doses of cannabis on a day-to-day basis... it just doesn't affect me well, my work would suffer (hell, it already suffers because I don't give a shit about my work, actually, while originally liking it, I have change my views about things politically over the years, and have now come to loathe over 50% of what I do at my job - I'm at least 15 mins late everyday bc I can't even get the fuck out of bed in the morning due to no motivation), hence one of the many reasons of my using/addiction of other stuff (mainly oxy/hydro/Kratom) - in order to make myself actually want to feel productive at work and pretend I like it, because I can like almost anything when I'm high, or least could care less about the shit I don't like about it... until the tolerance rises, I get addicted, need to withdraw (which makes me even more unproductive again) and I have then to find my next temporary solution. I actually get up easier in the mornings when I'm taking something because I'm at least excited to take my temporary DOC. Cannabis would never be one for me though these days. Most stims give me too much anxiety now to enjoy enough to be useful on (unless I'm drinking with them - which I would never do at work). Hence why I love oxy/hydro, and then loved and still love Kratom now. It never used to be that way though when it came to stims... when I started back in high school with a prescription of Ritalin for ADD (a completely bogus diagnosis), I felt they were the greatest thing ever. I couldn't wait to take it with my morning eggs, OJ and multivitamin. Little did I know at the time what was actually going on. I actually partly blame my docs for introducing me to the drug life, the hard-drug scene. Sure I liked drinking, and I loved smoking pot at the time, the music appreciation and creativity and relaxation that came from it. I learned psychedelic blues guitar all on my own with no lessons thanks to pot (trying to learn jazz and Indian now - hard as hell! Especially as I hate dealing with music theory an the names of all the noted and scales and chords and shit - can't remember what's what for shit - I just go by patterns and sounds). But I digress... anyway, I did and do have an open-mind when it came to drugs and actually got and still get high on the thought alone of doing other drugs ( though I've always stuck with the "classics" and am not a fan of the idea of new "designer drugs"), introducing other people to other drugs, and being loved and accepted for it, was and still is an actual fantasy of mine that kinda gets me high all on its own. I tried shrooms, I tried acid, and found them to be great mind-expanders. It really made me think, why has the government lied to us about these wonderful things? But it was the docs, those "professionals", all those PCP's who got me to love the artificial highs and going to places like school and work. They didn't know what the fuck they were doing. They still don't. Looking back, I simply was, and still am to a degree, just a shy, sensitive, intuitive and very laid-back introvert, and at the time adolescent, who didn't quite conform to "popularity's standards"... and was just having a hard time dealing with normal teenager bullshit trying to fit in... still trying to fit in to the standards of my peers (and not succeeding), especially after moving to a new town freshman year of high school. I work out dress nice, but my own style (jeans and flannel, button downs - I usually don't tuck my shirt in at work even though I'm always told to - no, they can go fuck thsmelves).

Meanwhile, my higher than average IQ combined with my independent intuition and individualized interests made me bored and frustrated with the common core curriculum, and certainly kept me from being what cold be considered a grade A student. To everyone, including the docs and my parents... I just needed to take "something" for my psycholigical issues because "some people just need to take something". "Some people just need chemical help". It couldn't have just been that I was a unique type of person with a different type of learning curve or different interests in life. Nah, couldn't have been that. Call it resentment, all it unresolved anger, call it whatever you want - it's not justification, it's truth at it's core. My chemical balance was off they said. According to their diagnosis, I had generalized anxiety disorder, social phobia, chronic depression, seasonal-affectve depression, ADD (or apparently to them in their notes, ADHD - complete bullshit. I was and still am probably one of the most laid-back, slow paced, spaced out people you could ever meet), and was possibly bipolar they said - though they didn't tell me that at the time. Bipolar? Yes that's right, my doc went so far as to say they thought I was bipolar at one point - but never told me, and still to this day never showed me any evidence as to why they thought this. I never even found out until years later. At one time, I worked in a halfway house for mostly schizophrenics at one point, but one woman there was bipolar. Like, REALLY bipolar. Now I saw with my own eyes what bipolar is and can do to a person. These docs look for any little thing to diagnose people with, just so they can make a case and prescribe their next money-maker. They demonize shit like LSD and MDMA to death and then prescribe a "possibly bipolar adolescent" with a daily vitamin regime of Zoloft and Ritalin and Xanax and Vitamin D2 and Bullshitamenophen combined with a controlled dose of Moneymakamodil, all to fix these "mental disorders" and balance each other out. Like I said above, I loved Ritalin when they first prescribed it. I loved it every morning. It made me high, horny, energetic, confident, able to actually give a shit about my schoolwork for once... everything great. To me, basing my beliefs off of what I was told by the "professionals" it was a miracle drug - my ADD was "fixed". I felt "normal" now! Or did I? I had no idea it was actually making me *high* because I didn't actually have ADD, but because my grades improved (temporarily), well, whose grades wouldn't improve on a freshly-started short term spout of stims; and yet that was their evidence, their proof - I had ADD (or ADHD, or whatever). So they kept me on it, my tolerance grew, they upped my dose, my tolerance grew more, they upped my dose more, the good effects slowly started to fade and then the anxiety came... the paranoia, the sweating, the lack of appetite, the cracked out feeling of needing more and more just to feel "okay"... even staying away for long periods since those days... the stim experience has never been the same since. Meth is demonized but Adderall is okay. Cocaine is evil, but Wellbutrin is safe and effective and FDA approved. Here I thought the Ritalin/Concerta was working because I was told I had ADD which my 16 year old naive self verbally agreed with with the doc (but they actually wrote down "ADHD" in their little notepads in secret). I told them in no way could I have had ADHD... just ADD... I'm probably one of the most spaced out, laid back people ever... hyperactive my ass... so when I got copies of my med records many years later when I was considering joining the military (worst mistake I never made... thank god), I couldn't believe the shit that I saw they had written about me... I actually got snippy at my doc when I saw it all and was like, are you fucking kidding me, this is what you were writing about me? This was your diagnosis of me? Are you guys fucking sick in the head? Readin the stuff they had wrote about me, you would think I was borderline psychward material. It's unreal how some docs look at their patients. I have since traveled parts the world all on my own, with nothing more than a school-size backpack, lived on my own in a developing country for 4 months, had multiple successes with women (the first and last era o my life with success in that area of my life), graduated college and got my BA in Anthropology with a 3.4 GPA - with NO MEDS WHATSOEVER - I had taken myself off at that point. Because I realized... at those points, I was doing what I wanted to do. I was in my element. I was barely even doing any illegal drugs either, aside from the little recreational thing here or there. I didn't need to.

Now though... I'm back in the rut. I work at a job I could care less about, because it's what I'm supposed to do for security, a salary, a pension... and here I am unable to get through a day without the need for a high, which most recently has been a combination of Kratom, large amounts of Coca leaf, Nootropics, Ketamine, Potion 9's, Valium, Phenibut... before that, dextroamphetamine (usually mixed with one or more downers to counteract the anxiety), oxycodone (my love), and/or any combination of the above... Whatever I can get my hands on. Kratom was/is #1 most recently, but have been trying to lay off - at the moment I have a feeling I'm experiencing residual effects of Phenibut withdrawal, from using a bit too much the past week, but I can't really be sure. But whatever. It's just out of control. I need help, but these treatment centers don't do shit, they just sit there and stare at me, compliment me on how introspective I am, since I apparently do/already did all their work for them after telling them all about my subconscious and self-analysis, and how I know so much about myself so well, and then I will tell them a large part of how I learned so much about myself is because of my occasional, responsible, solo psychedelic use for personal and spiritual growth reasons, which helps give me insight about myself and life... and they can only respond by glaring at me with this look on their face as if I had just unzipped my fly and took a piss on their fucking desk while weeping in agony at the fact that something other than a fucking NA meeting could offer any kind of solution.

I still don't know the roots of my addictions... I know I gets bouts of social anxiety in certain situations (not all - I hate clubs or large groups of people, but like small pubs or places where I am doing something... like socializing at work is a lot easier than socializing out of work, even with the same people, for instance), boredom, unfulfillment, lack of success with women, having no friends (my few closest friends all moved way years ago - I'm still here, luckily I'm close with my little brother despite him only being 17). Also, lack of acceptance into mainstream society despite my ability to apparently get people to like me easily (when in comfortable situations that are right for ME) = but apparently, I;m laid-back and easy to talk to, but still never get invites out! This all contributes. This is why I feel I need an Iboga treatment... I feel it's the only thing that may help me go even deeper, to find the answers within myself. I have hints, I have this here, that there... but I need deeper, more direct answers. Ayahuasca helped introduce me to the divine, to what is out there, and beyond. It helped me learn divinity. It helped me learn to fufill my destiny in this life, I must rid myself of my fears, but I still don't know how. I know working hard (I've never been a typically hard-working person - Ayahuasca, LSD and mishrooms all made me feel guilty over this, and so it must mean someyhing - wantong to work hard - to help people, is part of it. But I know I have nver worked hard because I never followed my heart in my work, and I would easily get bored when staying stagnant in one place for too long. I must have had 25 different part time jobs by the end of my second year in college. Besides being introduced to the divine, to the Infinite, that much I was shown by Ayahuasca - to work hard, and be a good, hard-working, responsible person in helping others. But doing what? I just don't know. That's why I think I am leaving my job to join the Peace Corps, and will follow that up by leaving to continue traveling and see what the universe helps me discover with odd jobs along the way across the globe, as I for once in my life, allow myself, my gut, my heart, and my intuition to guide me, using my brain only as a tool to direct me as best I can along the way, rather than relying on only my brain's logic and parent's influences to make my life decisions for me. Any one person is their own best therapist... these counselors don't know shit about me and tell me crap I already learned about myself 5 years ago, and then say, well just go on an SSRI... no doctor fuck you, I've ben on 96456 of them already and I already told you and the last 3 therapists that you work with at this treatment center that they don't work, they just numb me out and don't give me answers. It's just a cover-up to zombify me so I could care less about the awareness of being a slave to the system 5 days a week for the Man when I could be living a life that as far as I know I am only give once. I believe this is why I need a good candyflip, followed by a good Iboga trip, followed by leaving to find my way, leaving security behind. The hardest part will be leaving my family to do it and having no one to fall back on, but I will survive, I have to. Hoping The candyflip and Iboga will help guide and show me part of the way of working through this quarter-life crises of mine.

Sorry, long post, long rant. Fuck it. It's late, and I'm probably gonna be late again to work again tomorrow. Fuck it all, I don't even care anymore. My boss is late everyday but tell me I can;t be late. He can be late because he's the director and my supervisor. Well I'm a supervisor too. He's my boss, but guess what, the town manager is his boss. Does the town manager care that he's late? He' a supervisor so he can be late. But he needs me there on time. Well I'm a supervisor, so I can late too. How is that Mr. Bossman? By the way, all those days I called out sick, I wasn;t really sick. I was either tripping on shrooms or jerking off while thinking of your wife and/or your side-chick who also happens to be your subordinate coworker. Oops? Did I say that out loud?

And this is why I take drugs.

If any of the mods want to move this specific post to another thread like mental health or sober living, feel free lol. For real.
 
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My main query is...are kratom withdrawals worse than stim comedowns?

Because Im very familiar with stim comedowns but not withdrawals from downers.

Since kratom is spose to be less than other opiates does that mean it comes out about the same as a stim comedown? Because stim comedowns could easily last a week or more for me and it's commonly said that kratom withdrawal lasts around 5 days.

I'd like to avoid suffering either however I just want to know worse case if kratom is about the same as stim comedowns cos thats familiar territory, trying to get some reference.

Ideally Id be able to control my usage (never had an issue with this with other substances in the past) but I won't know till I try and wanna see how bad they were if worst came to worst if it would be worth the risk.
 
I have never really gone through stim withdrawals but my guess would be that it depends how big the habit of each is. Ultimately if you were taking enough Kratom it certainly has the potential to be worse in terms of withdrawals. It all depends though there are a lot of variables involved.
 
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I don't think you can really predict the "addictiveness" of kratom, as it's not a single drug, but has varying quantities.

And addiction and physical dependence are two very different things. Anything can be addictive. Sex is addictive, but you never become dependent on it(well...)

Stims cause a rebound effect with long-term and/or heavy use, and they are certainly addictive, but you'll never become physically dependent on them.

Caffeine has physical WD symptoms, oddly enough....
 
Yeah doctors also consider things like tramadol, gabapentin, and SSRI's non addictive but that's complete nonsense. Keep in mind that pharmaceutical companies come to these doctors and convince them that certain medications are simply "non-addictive" when it's not true and it's real shitty when a brainwashed doctor gets you hooked and kicks you off a supposed non-addictive med and when trying to explain how your going through hell they just shrug you off, this happens more often than you would think and it's quite sad.

Stimulants CAN be addictive, in which they do cause both physical and mental withdrawal upon abrubt cessation if used for extended periods of time. My GF went through adderall withdrawal a couple years back and she was miserable.... anhedonia, fatigue, crushing depression, constant sleeping, anxiety etc... anyone who says that stimulants (at least some of them) aren't addictive need to dig a bit deeper for the truth. Hell type in meth withdrawal and see what a lovely time these folk have after kicking a habit. (And no, meth and adderal are not the only physically addictive stimulants)

Two of MANY sources...

If a doctor says tramadol isn't addictive, he's an idiot. It can cause dependence in every sense of the word, no matter how weak it may be.

Not to mention the possibility for atypical WD from it's multiple modes of action...
 
Well this talk of physical dependence, it gets kind of skewed when talking about anti depressants cos they call that withdrawal dont they but arent they just acting on the same chemicals as stims so in that sense they arent physically dependent inducing.

So withdrawal is better thought of as a product of duration of use isnt it? In that if you use ANYTHING every day, be it stims, downers or anti depressants then your gonna have some shitty negative effects upon cessation (granted some worse than others).

This paradimg simplifies things somewhat does it not in that the more you take something the more your natural supply is going to atrophy so it doesnt matter what that is you'll still get a rebound once you stop and the longer you took it the worse itll be.

Shit this doesnt even apply to drugs, when you break your leg and use a crutch for several months then your leg is weak as shit till you start using it again isnt it. This is alot simpler explanation in my mind that these arbitrary demarcations between physical/psychological.

With that in mind, provided you tried other methods 1st to no avail, if you are lacking in some area then it makes sense to use a drug as a crutch till you get your sea legs. Yes some ppl will get hooked on their crutches but that is another matter.
 
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I've experienced Kratom withdrawals before as the illicit pharma market dried up around here. It got so bad that the only thing I could find was generic 8mg dilaudid and had to pay $30 each....I've never spiked or plugged anything, and the Dilaudid I took orally, so that was a terrible high because what I've read seems to be true...spike it and it's incredible, otherwise it's a waste of money. So that got way too expensive to maintain, with Dillies giving me an 8-hour high tops, really closer to about 6.... Then I went to Methadone which was great at $1/mg, a 40-60 mg dose daily kept me buzzed all day long and was WAY more effective for pain than I expected.

(Short background...I got addicted to painkillers around the same time that Cocaine took me. In those early few years, it was only for pleasure, but then my injuries started to catch up to me....a few motorcycle accidents, a bad car accident, and nerve problems resulting in shooting, zinging numbness in my extremities). So then M-done dried up and I switched to Kratom as it was always readily available at local shops and the quality seemed moderate enough. The withdrawal syndrome, I would liken it to similar to Tramadol's withdrawal syndrome. Kind of like a mixture of opiate withdrawal and SSRI withdrawal. Not severe, but not fun.

UPDATE on Kratom and Bupe together: They DO synergize.....I took a 6 gram dose of some decent quality Maeng Da, which would normally have me buzzing around nicely, but because I dosed Kratom highly the night before, it had little effect. I waited a solid hour and a half, then took a single 8mg dose of Bupe sublingually. Subutex generic, NOT Suboxone. Within half an hour, I had an extremely high buzz going on....the opiate itch, euphoria (which I've never gotten from Bupe....EVER), I became very talkative..... In short, it felt like an Oxy high, equivalent to about 60mg if I was sick (30mg to stabilize, another 30mg to enhance), or a 30mg high if I wasn't in Oxy W/D's. I will have to try this again in a week after I get another paycheck in to see if it's a fluke or not, but the results were very promising.....though I want to do so carefully and sparingly. No more habits for me, other than my Bupe maintenance which I have begun a taper of with my doctor. FYI, full-blown Bupe withdrawal is WAY worse than I expected it to be, so I want to get off of it now because the length and severity kinda freaked me out.
 
What kind of scales do people recommend for Kratom?

Sekio recommended I get a cheap one, so I did, and now I've found that it fucking sucks and won't even register as having anything on it when I put most small objects on it, let alone a small amount of a light herb like Kratom.

I need a SENSITIVE scale.

Regardless, I'm starting to figure out my correct dosage which seems to be between 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 teaspoons which is probably something like 5.6--6.3 grams give or take.

I find that for my first dose of the day it's ESSENTIAL I have the Kratom BEFORE my coffee as if I have the coffee first the Kratom will sedate me and bring me back down.

Also, anything more than 2 1/2 teaspoons sedates me too much. I took a few small inhalations of some benzedrex when I started to get overly groggy from the Kratom and that really snapped me out of it nicely.

Pretty relaxed on some bali right now but it's not hitting as hard as I want but probably will when the 1/2 teaspoon I took 30 mins ago kicks in.

I found Green Vein Borneo and coffee to be a great combination today for having energy while doing yard work also.
 
What kind of scales do people recommend for Kratom?

Sekio recommended I get a cheap one, so I did, and now I've found that it fucking sucks and won't even register as having anything on it when I put most small objects on it, let alone a small amount of a light herb like Kratom.

I need a SENSITIVE scale.

Regardless, I'm starting to figure out my correct dosage which seems to be between 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 teaspoons which is probably something like 5.6--6.3 grams give or take.

I find that for my first dose of the day it's ESSENTIAL I have the Kratom BEFORE my coffee as if I have the coffee first the Kratom will sedate me and bring me back down.

Also, anything more than 2 1/2 teaspoons sedates me too much. I took a few small inhalations of some benzedrex when I started to get overly groggy from the Kratom and that really snapped me out of it nicely.

Pretty relaxed on some bali right now but it's not hitting as hard as I want but probably will when the 1/2 teaspoon I took 30 mins ago kicks in.

I found Green Vein Borneo and coffee to be a great combination today for having energy while doing yard work also.


Honestly I got a real cheap one off of Amazon for like $10 or $12 (one of the first choices it ave, it was small, black, rectangular, easy to carry and it works great... BUT, it was my second time buying one, and the first one I got didn't work well at all, even though it was the same brand. The first one weighed to the tenth... I think... aka 0.0. I found after some time it wasn't very accurate just in general, but I still used it for awhile. Then eventually I realized I neded one to weigh to the hundredth (I think) aka 0.00, because I realized that I needed to weigh in milligrams more accurately and the 0.0, even if it did work well, obviously wasn't precise enough in any case. So I got another scale... the same brand, but which measured to the 0.00 level I was looking for. Well, big difference in terms of not just precision, but accuracy as well - like, calibration wise. So, it could just be that you got stuck with a crappy, funky individual scale. My first one sucked, my second one, didn't even though they were the same brand and the same in every respect except one measured to the hundredth instead of just the tenth. So who knows, it could just be you got stuck with a clunky scale, not necessarily related to brand or even model. I'm just happy they were cheap.
 
Are you sure you got a digital scale for weighing small objects and not a cooking one :D cos even the cheapest of the cheap digital scales will weight to 0.03g. They are called jewellery scales I think.

What kind of scales do people recommend for Kratom?

Sekio recommended I get a cheap one, so I did, and now I've found that it fucking sucks and won't even register as having anything on it when I put most small objects on it, let alone a small amount of a light herb like Kratom.

I need a SENSITIVE scale.

Regardless, I'm starting to figure out my correct dosage which seems to be between 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 teaspoons which is probably something like 5.6--6.3 grams give or take.

I find that for my first dose of the day it's ESSENTIAL I have the Kratom BEFORE my coffee as if I have the coffee first the Kratom will sedate me and bring me back down.

Also, anything more than 2 1/2 teaspoons sedates me too much. I took a few small inhalations of some benzedrex when I started to get overly groggy from the Kratom and that really snapped me out of it nicely.

Pretty relaxed on some bali right now but it's not hitting as hard as I want but probably will when the 1/2 teaspoon I took 30 mins ago kicks in.

I found Green Vein Borneo and coffee to be a great combination today for having energy while doing yard work also.
 
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