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The ISIS Megathread

Anyways, back on topic - the campaign against ISIS and it's likely effectiveness (whatever happened to that thread anyway? It seems to have morphed into a general "let's all shit on the brown people for their religious beliefs" thread):

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/wh...-islamic-state-is-doomed-20141013-1154pa.html

Tony Abbott hopes for a good, quick, cheap war in Iraq. But after the first few weeks of bombing everyone now understands that western air strikes alone will do little to "degrade and destroy" the so-called Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. They will only be defeated on the ground. That will require very large land forces, committed for a very long time, and accepting heavy casualties.

Most of those forces are supposed to come from the Iraqi Army and "moderate" factions in Syria's civil war, both of which have already been soundly beaten by IS. The hope is that weapons, training and advice from the US-led coalition will transform them into crack troops who can turn the tables on IS and win the war for us.

This is not a new idea. For half a century America and its allies have been trying to win messy civil wars without fighting themselves and by training and equipping one side or the other. It never works. We need only recall Afghanistan, where we have just spent many billions of dollars and quite a few lives over almost a decade, trying and failing to create effective, pro-western security forces that could beat the Taliban. Or Iraq, where an equally massive effort produced the Iraqi Army, whose dismal performance allowed IS to seize so much of Iraq in the first place. Or Vietnam.

There are deep reasons for these failures. Making good soldiers is a very complex business. A few days "instruction" by a foreigner who doesn't even speak their language does not do it. As IS itself shows, civil wars are not won by better weapons or technical skills, but by stronger motivation and morale. Foreign advisers cannot supply that.

This means that Barack Obama's current campaign against IS is almost certain to fail. So what are the alternatives? The best would be to secure large-scale support from the major regional powers who have most at stake in the future of Iraq and Syria. Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia have the forces and resources to defeat IS if they choose to use them. But they do not share Obama's strategic objectives in the region, and they are bitter rivals themselves. They will not follow America's leadership.

That seems to leave only one option - to commit US and coalition land forces to fight and defeat IS on the ground themselves. Many people already believe we should do this, and their numbers will grow. Already the counter-insurgency experts are calling for a coalition ground campaign. But we should be under no illusion what that would mean. A few thousand Western troops will not make any real difference. Many, many more would be needed.

To see why, we need first to understand that that the current campaign objective makes no strategic sense. Simply destroying IS would do little if anything to remove the dangers that events in Iraq and Syria now pose to countries like America and Australia. New groups like IS will continue to emerge as long as these civil wars rage. The dangers we fear will be removed only when a new stable political order can be established in this region.

America and its allies would only be able to lead that process, or even influence it much, by deploying huge land forces for a very long time indeed. Any serious chance of success would require a military and political commitment both much bigger and probably much longer than the one that followed America's invasion of Iraq in 2003.

And, of course, that is not going to happen. It is not just that America and its allies lack the will to take up that kind of burden again. They lack the resources, including the armed forces. Western militaries are just not big enough for the job, even if they didn't have other things to worry about – and they do.

This, then, is the problem at the heart of the campaign against IS. It is easy to agree that IS poses a terrible threat to the people of Iraq and Syria, and a significant risk to countries much further away. But any effective military campaign against IS would require immense resources. So it is not enough to say that IS is evil and dangerous. We have to decide whether the risks that IS poses are great enough to justify the costs of a campaign that would have any realistic chance of removing it. And the answer is no.

That being so, the campaign we have joined is doomed to fail, and should not have been launched. There is no point launching a campaign if the objectives do not warrant the costs required to achieve them.

President Obama himself probably understands this, which is why he was so reluctant to commit forces until now. The only question is whether he admits failure soon, before the costs mount too high, or sets off down a path of slowly escalating commitment in the hope that just a bit more effort will somehow bring success.

This painful process soon takes on a momentum of its own. It takes much longer and costs even more, but produces the same result in the end. And history suggests, that this path is the more likely. It is what Obama is already being urged to do.

Abbott should be thinking carefully about this. He hopes and expects that his new commitment to Iraq can be limited to the relatively low-cost and low-risk deployments he has authorised so far. But that was what John Howard believed when he first committed Australia to Afghanistan in 2001. When our allies increase their commitment, we soon did the same.

If Obama is persuaded to commit more forces against IS, Abbott's war in Iraq could soon look a lot like Afghanistan. As our commitment slowly escalated, that war lasted much longer and cost much more – including 40 lives - than anyone at first imagined, before we finally withdrew without achieving any of our objectives. How quickly we seem to have forgotten that.

Hugh White is a Fairfax columnist and professor of strategic studies in the Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, ANU.
 
Completely ignoring things, too. You seem to be painting a picture that shariah actually deserves the respect of a place in our society. It doesn't respect our laws. It doesn't coexist with democracy. It instills gender inequality. It asks for death for apostates, and is invasive of peoples personal lives. No free mixing of the sexes. Shariah has absolutely no place in a free society. Not all cultures deserve the same respect.

This is the utter insanity of the progressive left. Islam is essentially a right wing ideology and is against everything they claim to stand for yet they are knocking each other over to defend it.

Despite all this debating on here I still don't understand it, I don't think they understand it. Maybe Its just a pavlovian response to white people attacking brown people?

The best I can figure is that its a case of "the enemy of my enemiy is my friend"

good grief

neither of you know what democracy is
 
I guess if enough want shariah, and get it, then that is democracy in action.

In that case, I want a law that makes shariah impossible to have any power here. :) Their freedom to take away freedom be damned. I'm definitely polarized against it. Its totalitarian, so if I need to align with some hard-line against it, I will.
 
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Oh FFS 8(

You really don't get how the law even works, do you? (stupid question, I forgot who I was responding to for a moment)

We already HAVE what you "want" - no law can subvert a higher court. Sharia does not and cannot supersede laws set in place by the legislature and the executive. It CAN however exist subservient to those higher powers.for instance, in the UK, Sharia serves as a very efficient means of dispute settlement that prevents certain cases from going to higher courts and costing the taxpayer unnecessarily. In the same way that liturgical law exists in your beloved Christian religion. Your bigoted understanding of what Sharia even represents is a laughable caricature based on the most extremist of interpretations that are practised only it shit eating theocracies like Saudi Arabia.

Like always, you fear and hate that which you simply do not understand.
 
Maybe you're right, for now. For now our nations are dominated by the culture that I came from. That may not be the case in 200 years in certain places in Europe. A lot can change. I don't want people who call themselves "Muslim" (so called moderates who don't even follow Islam but just do what they can to blend in...) to wake up and decide they need to be extreme and bar sexes from mixing before marriage and things. I don't want that culture allowed to propagate. Maybe Islam will as a whole have some kind of enlightenment like Christian nations did. But one thing that I think Christianity had going for it was that it had so many authors. So many interpretations. Islam was brought by one single author. It is meant to be clear and easy to understand. There might be arguments over interpretting it, but there is not a lot of room, really, when you get down to it. If they want to water it down, all power to them, but some of my only experience speaking with Muslims about anything that might be in conflict with their fundamentals led me to be judged by them- for my having girlfriends. I was going to hell. Blah blah. I guess sown fundamentalist Christians are the same way, and so many that call themselves 'Christian' are not.

Frankly all religions piss me off. But in Islamic countries there are such high levels of adherence. It is strict. It is not as developed. Its not as old. Its by one author. Its meant to be accepted as the clear message of Allah. They believe that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, and that NOONE else will have a say. It is totalitarian, and I don't want to tolerate it in any form. I dont want it creeping in nations of my ancestry (then again I guess that includes areas it already got, like south central Asia and Turkey, so I'm a bit late for that statement).

On some fundamental level, you are totally correct in what you say... But you don't see very far in front of you.
 
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We already HAVE what you "want" - no law can subvert a higher court. Sharia does not and cannot supersede laws set in place by the legislature and the executive. It CAN however exist subservient to those higher powers.for instance, in the UK, Sharia serves as a very efficient means of dispute settlement that prevents certain cases from going to higher courts and costing the taxpayer unnecessarily. In the same way that liturgical law exists in your beloved Christian religion. Your bigoted understanding of what Sharia even represents is a laughable caricature based on the most extremist of interpretations that are practised only it shit eating theocracies like Saudi Arabia.

Exactly!!!
 
Just wanted to add that the group "Anonymous" has just came out in support against ISIS as ISIS hacked their twitter account lol
 
I guess if enough want shariah, and get it, then that is democracy in action.

In that case, I want a law that makes shariah impossible to have any power here. :) Their freedom to take away freedom be damned. I'm definitely polarized against it. Its totalitarian, so if I need to align with some hard-line against it, I will.

democracy is more than majority rules. in fact, the tyranny of the masses can and often does become an impediment to real democracy. but even if we were only going by voting.... so you are trying to prevent the removal of freedom, by removing a freedom? does that not strike you as a teensy bit on the retarded side?

which freedoms are real freedoms? think about this for a moment, do you prefer a freedom to exploit or a freedom from exploitation. the answer to this is where you will find if you really understand what freedom really is. thinking about the consequences of each, with the former being smaller gov/regs and the latter being larger. what are your values?

p.s. you don't have to answer these to me, just think about them. they dictate your position on a lot of accounts. if you really want to have control over your political reactions, look at the roots of them. the rest simply follows these.
 
do you prefer a freedom to exploit or a freedom from exploitation. the answer to this is where you will find if you really understand what freedom really is.

Haha. Good luck getting these guys to understand positive freedom =D
 
We already HAVE what you "want" - no law can subvert a higher court. Sharia does not and cannot supersede laws set in place by the legislature and the executive. It CAN however exist subservient to those higher powers.for instance, in the UK, Sharia serves as a very efficient means of dispute settlement that prevents certain cases from going to higher courts and costing the taxpayer unnecessarily.

This isn't necessarily true.

The Sharia court will always be in favour of the man. Women are continuously denied divorces for anything from domestic violence to rape and because of the strict nature of their culture many women will never seek real legal help.

Sexism is still very prevalent in many communities of muslim communities.
 
This isn't necessarily true.

The Sharia court will always be in favour of the man. Women are continuously denied divorces for anything from domestic violence to rape and because of the strict nature of their culture many women will never seek real legal help.

Sexism is still very prevalent in many communities of muslim communities.

Yeah but if two parties in the UK decide to settle a dispute in a Sharia court and the court's ruling contradicts the law of the land it is not a valid decision - it will be overruled by a higher court. Except for theocratic shitholes like Saudi Arabia Sharia is subservient to higher courts. And every moderate interpretation of Sharia says that is exactly how it should be - render unto Caesar and all that...
 
My point is that many disputes never go to a real court because of the culture so is never overruled, regardless of law.. (They can't overrule a case they don't know about)

And Sharia courts are pretty far from fair when handling domestic disputes.
 
Where are you from, Rick? Question has absolutely nothing to do with the thread but I'd had you pegged as an American then saw you use the phrase "bollocks" recently so am curious...
 
Your bigoted understanding of what Sharia even represents is a laughable caricature based on the most extremist of interpretations that are practised only it shit eating theocracies like Saudi Arabia.

Is it really a bigoted misconception? Saying that it only exists in "shit eating theocracies like Saudi Arabia" is fallaciously minimizing the extent to which it is present in the region. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen are all also similarly run theocracies in the region, and alongside Saudi Arabia, contain many of the region's most powerful and populous nations. The characterization of Sharia that he presented isn't "a laughable caricture based on the most extremist of interpretations"... It's an accurate portrayal of Sharia as it is currently practiced in the region's most populous nations.
 
Is it really a bigoted misconception? Saying that it only exists in "shit eating theocracies like Saudi Arabia" is fallaciously minimizing the extent to which it is present in the region. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen are all also similarly run theocracies in the region, and alongside Saudi Arabia, contain many of the region's most powerful and populous nations. The characterization of Sharia that he presented isn't "a laughable caricture based on the most extremist of interpretations"... It's an accurate portrayal of Sharia as it is currently practiced in the region's most populous nations.

I'm going to have to agree to an extent.. There is a huge problem with the unfair treatment of homosexuals and with the rights of women, even if the laws or the culture isn't as strict as Saudi Arabia.. in a fair amount of muslim cultures.. That's what happens when you turn theology into politics.

Christianity (and Islam) is being used similarly in Africa.. and causing the same backwards things.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...g-fundamental-sexism-2014520172250423649.html

All religions should be forgotten about imo.. they cause more harm than good..

But let's not forget that IS would not exist if it wasn't for Western powers raping and destroying the region, over and over again.. It's not hard to understand why "death to America" is a popular want and / or goal of many people in the middle east.. Shit.. a lot of westerners don't like their government and their pushy pushy ways of spreading their ideology using brute force (and propoganda).
 
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Anyone who thinks this is just a fight between Muslims and non Muslims or even just sectarian violence or the old we hate America shit obviously has no understanding at all of the situation in that region. Currently the only ones really having any success against ISIS are the Kurds which are made up of the Peshmerga as well as the PKK which is a Marxist-Leninist style left wing nationalist movement that is also on the Turkish, NATO and US terrorist group list. The PKK as opposed to the legal Kurdish fighters the Peshmerga have been doing most of the fighting and due to recent fighting in Turkey between the PKK and Islamic militants and other ISIS supporters the Turks responded by bombing the shit out of the only group that is currently holding the Kobane region from falling to ISIS which is the PKK. The Turks would rather put up with a Islamic militant state then give the Kurds their own autonomous region.

So yeah it's about a wee bit more then then damn Muslims 8)
 
How does this perceived anti-womanistic idea of Islam marry up with the number of recent female heads of state in Muslim countries?
 
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