The Intelligence of DMT - A Retrospective Analysis.

[murphythecat]

but science aim at finding the truth (law) of the universe, in the material world and the more they look, the more they discover that the material world is not material at all. just look at physic quantics and maybe realize that the material world is infinitely connected to the observation we make.
I think that the material world is just a support system for your mind and that our mind is where we should look for truth.

truth for me are insight into the ultimate reality. Love, bliss, happiness are truth. why we arent always happy, blissful and loving is something science will never be able to answer, only you and please, dont blame outer conditions for your unhappiness.

I guess it depends on what you mean by truth. Individual experiences are the worst places to look for truth, in my opinion. There's such an incredible collection of biases and faulty hardware and software involved. The aim of science is to take these factors out of the equation as best as possible, to arrive at data that appears true no matter what hardware/software system processes it. No matter what desires and preferences the viewer holds. Repeatable, usable information that can be built upon fruitfully.

But then, truth is a loaded, complex word. Perhaps you're using it to mean something personal and not objective.

 

[Doldrugs]

just look at physic quantics and maybe realize that the material world is infinitely connected to the observation we make.

Thinking you can "scale up" quantum physics is a common misunderstanding of the theory.

why we arent always happy, blissful and loving is something science will never be able to answer

Why not? I feel like science has already answered that. Or at least put forth the most likely answers, which is what science does. It will only improve them over time.

 

[Mizora]

Interesting read! How could I not reply... i like a few have said think questioning our reality, what is it all about etc is the most important topic to our race. I don't understand how we all do not think about it on a regular basis. I've never done dmt so unfortunately do not have much of a perspective on the high but I do believe that we have so much to learn just about the very fabric of our reality. Further to this the way we perceive this fabric.
The quantum world seemingly makes no sense whatsoever when considering the way we process our reality, all these atoms, particles floating around. Sometimes I feel that it is due to our limited understanding that we can't understand what's on the outside of the universe or what's on the edge. But other times I think space and time are illusions. An illusion we have to perceive due to our senses. I don't know how we could ever understand it from a different perspective as we are so integral to our reality if that makes sense?

 

[murphythecat]

Thinking you can "scale up" quantum physics is a common misunderstanding of the theory.



Why not? I feel like science has already answered that. Or at least put forth the most likely answers, which is what science does. It will only improve them over time.

well, its quite clear that quantum physic demonstrate how ourselves determine reality and that reality is not at all what our sense tells us.

 

[Mizora]

Word

 

[Doldrugs]

well, its quite clear that quantum physic demonstrate how ourselves determine reality

Nope.

and that reality is not at all what our sense tells us.

While this is true, it's not really relevant to quantum physics. Improvements in biology, psychology, and technology led scientifically minded people to that conclusion long before quantum physics was developed.

 

[murphythecat]

maybe you should revisit the concept?
reality is infinitely related to the observant and you cannot determine reality without a observant (you). the slot experiment is one good example. what we think as a particle is actually a wave. what we take as a house, a human, a table, is a wave. ect.

of course, even before physic quantic it was theorize.
anyways, the more science dig into reality, the more they realize the limitation of science. why? because consciousness is not material nor generated by the brain.
yet, we try to understand reality by looking outside of ourselves which I think is very wrong. our consciousness is what defines our reality. not the material reality.

Nope.



While this is true, it's not really relevant to quantum physics. Improvements in biology, psychology, and technology led scientifically minded people to that conclusion long before quantum physics was developed.

 

[Doldrugs]

the more science dig into reality, the more they realize the limitation of science

According to who? The more science continues to work, the greater its achievements are. Science hasn't even hinted at anything other than potentially infinite insights and progress. Pseudoscience, wishful thinking, and mysticism have achieved nothing while science just keeps getting results.

Just because science hasn't answered your question yet doesn't mean it can't. That is fallacious reasoning. When science does answer your question but you don't like the answer, refusing that answer is just foolish.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Guys stop arguing and just take DMT and listen.

 

[Bagseed]

According to who? The more science continues to work, the greater its achievements are. Science hasn't even hinted at anything other than potentially infinite insights and progress. Pseudoscience, wishful thinking, and mysticism have achieved nothing while science just keeps getting results.

Just because science hasn't answered your question yet doesn't mean it can't. That is fallacious reasoning. When science does answer your question but you don't like the answer, refusing that answer is just foolish.

yeah science has made more progress in understanding the universe and the nature of our beings than every religion can give you. in my opinion, our knowledge will continue to grow with time. maybe some time we can even understand where it came from. sure, science can't give you the answers right now, but religion can't either.

I don't see the purpose to give something like DMT "intelligence"... to me, the fact that it is a molecule which can interact with parts of our nervous system in certain ways to change our consciousness in a radical way is mystical and incredible enough. look around. you are already in space, in the 3rd dimension, riding on a big ball of matter until the universe will collapse under it's own gravity. the matter you are made of got formed inside dying stars, which then exploded to distribute your matter into the universe. why do we have to imagine something beyond this reality, when our reality is so crazy and beautiful?

I guess a year ago or so, I was also looking for "what's behind it", but since I started to study a science, I came to the realization that everything is right here right now, even if we sometimes can't see it.

 

[murphythecat]

I already have my answers. I just dont see what you are trying to prove in this thread honestly.

this thread is about people taking dmt and finding that it changed their life, gave them direction in life and more or less changed their perception of reality. Me included have had this experience with dmt.
and no science can give me that for reasons ive cited.

According to who? The more science continues to work, the greater its achievements are. Science hasn't even hinted at anything other than potentially infinite insights and progress. Pseudoscience, wishful thinking, and mysticism have achieved nothing while science just keeps getting results.

Just because science hasn't answered your question yet doesn't mean it can't. That is fallacious reasoning. When science does answer your question but you don't like the answer, refusing that answer is just foolish.

 

[Mizora]

Nope.


''One of the key principles of quantum physics is that our thoughts determine reality. Early in the 1900’s they proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt with an experiment called the double slit experiment. They found that the determining factor of the behavior of energy (‘particles’) at the quantum level is the awareness of the observer.
For example: electrons under the same conditions would sometimes act like particles, and then at other times they would switch to acting like waves (formless energy), because it was completely dependent on what the observer expected was going to happen. Whatever the observed believed would occur is what the quantum field did.
The quantum world is waiting for us to make a decision so that it knows how to behave. That is why quantum physicists have such difficulties in dealing with, explaining, and defining the quantum world. We are truly, in every sense of the word, masters of creation because we decide what manifests out of the field of all-possibility and into form.''

There is so much more to whats going on re us and the fabric of reality than we know right now...you know that right? I remember reading soon after one of the planes hit on 9/11 the magnetosphere reading of the earth changed, what some say is due to synchronized human emotion. Furthermore you must of heard of the Schumann Resonance right?

I'm all up for science, I love my science, I honestly do but it seems you are somewhat reluctant to the idea of 'more', apologies if I have got this wrong, it just seems that way on this thread.

 

[murphythecat]

thats it, we create reality by our observation hence the serious limitation of science.
we must understand what our consciousness is. science looks in the material world but like physic quantic show clearly, what you observe, you change the nature of the thing you observe.
there no such thing as objective observation so science as we know it is doomed.
what interest me in life is not material, but feeling of love, well being, happiness which is mental reality, not material.

Nope.


''One of the key principles of quantum physics is that our thoughts determine reality. Early in the 1900’s they proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt with an experiment called the double slit experiment. They found that the determining factor of the behavior of energy (‘particles’) at the quantum level is the awareness of the observer.
For example: electrons under the same conditions would sometimes act like particles, and then at other times they would switch to acting like waves (formless energy), because it was completely dependent on what the observer expected was going to happen. Whatever the observed believed would occur is what the quantum field did.
The quantum world is waiting for us to make a decision so that it knows how to behave. That is why quantum physicists have such difficulties in dealing with, explaining, and defining the quantum world. We are truly, in every sense of the word, masters of creation because we decide what manifests out of the field of all-possibility and into form.''

There is so much more to whats going on re us and the fabric of reality than we know right now...you know that right? I remember reading soon after one of the planes hit on 9/11 the magnetosphere reading of the earth changed, what some say is due to synchronized human emotion. Furthermore you must of heard of the Schumann Resonance right?

I'm all up for science, I love my science, I honestly do but it seems you are somewhat reluctant to the idea of 'more', apologies if I have got this wrong, it just seems that way on this thread.

 

[Molecular_Man]

maybe you should revisit the concept?
reality is infinitely related to the observant and you cannot determine reality without a observant (you). the slot experiment is one good example. what we think as a particle is actually a wave. what we take as a house, a human, a table, is a wave. ect.

of course, even before physic quantic it was theorize.
anyways, the more science dig into reality, the more they realize the limitation of science. why? because consciousness is not material nor generated by the brain.
yet, we try to understand reality by looking outside of ourselves which I think is very wrong. our consciousness is what defines our reality. not the material reality.

Sorry but Murphythecat destroyed you Doldrugs.. Nuff said.
Read again about the Coppenhagen interpretation.


The fact is:

- There are logical propositions/ phenomena that are true but will NEVER be PROVED, according to the brilliant human named Kurt Godel. It is a very difficult matter but it deserves a serious review by the ones who like to delve into deeper realms.
Ok.. This Godel thing, does not prove the spiritual nature of dmt molecule. Didn't I say that? No!
This just calls for the very limits of SCIENCE.

- In self-referential loops, like the one that happens when we try to research our own selves (our mind, our soul or our subjective dmt experiences), there are inherent limits.
Experience is subjective.. Scientific laws strive for/ claim objectivity.

- Mind will not manage to explain Mind 100%. Something like that.

- Maybe Mind^2 will manage to analyze Mind.

So let's be open to new dimensions, and let's don't be dogmatic.


- If I try dmt, I will know dmt. Experience is strictly subjective. So, conducting an experiment on my dmt experiences, is purely subjective.. You cannot research objectively and produce scientific proofs for something that is subjective.

 

[murphythecat]

can science prove love? can it prove happiness, generosity, compassion? theres nothing to prove, everything to experience
science is the study of the outer world. I care about my inner world and DMT showed me how much I have and am inside.

I still think doldrugs point is interesting, but I think that we must be our own scientist and trust our instinct and insight and look inside ourselves for answers

 

[Doldrugs]

thats it, we create reality by our observation hence the serious limitation of science.

No. We don't. Like I already stated, this is a common misunderstanding of the theory. You cannot scale up quantum concepts. They refer to very, very tiny things only. Misunderstanding or intentionally obscuring concepts of quantum physics and using them to justify your pseudoscientific claims is so common it has an informal fallacy named after it: appeal to quantum physics. The fact is, you and everyone else in this thread referencing quantum physics as a reason to believe pseudoscientific ideas do not understand the theory.

there no such thing as objective observation so science as we know it is doomed.

This is ludicrous. Science has achieved immense goals over thousands of years without objective observation. The entire point of science is to account for it. Our ability to account for bias and error has improved greatly and shows no signs of stagnating.

what interest me in life is not material, but feeling of love, well being, happiness which is mental reality, not material.

Science is doing fine in those areas. No other way of thinking, no matter how much you might like it, has understood these things any better than science.

http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Diax's_Rake

Also, your post contains a quote with my name and something I didn't say as though I did say it. Can you please fix that?

I think that we must be our own scientist and trust our instinct and insight and look inside ourselves for answers

Being a scientist has nothing to do with "trusting our instinct" or believing that our personal experience and illogical interpretation of it is objective reality. You're calling yourself a scientist and in the same breath espousing ideas that are totally opposed to science.

I remember reading soon after one of the planes hit on 9/11 the magnetosphere reading of the earth changed, what some say is due to synchronized human emotion.

Well, first of all it's not true at all. That is a false and anti scientific claim. But let's say it was possible: why would 9/11 elicit "synchronized human emotion"? Some parts of the world likely were pleased. The USA specifically was upset, but the majority of people in the world probably didn't care too much. Not that they endorsed it, but it didn't really affect their lives at all. There's violence everywhere. There's a lot more of the world than the US.

Furthermore you must of heard of the Schumann Resonance right?

Not sure of the relevance here.

I'm all up for science, I love my science

It doesn't seem like you understand science at a fundamental level. Science is about repeatable independent documented results. Entertaining the idea that "synchronized human emotion" changed the magnetosphere is utterly unscientific. The two ideas cannot peacefully coexist.

 

[Vurtual]

When people refer to the copenhagen interpretation they should remember that it's an interpretation - and that it was also a conscious decision to not understand what was going on in quantum physics but just to go with the formulae that worked anyway ('shut up and calculate'). There are plenty of people who try to interpret the quantum experiments without needing consciousness (ie the collapse of the waveform occurs when the particle connects to a wider, 'classical' system (eg the measuring apparatus) regardless of the observer) - or then there's the people who interpret the data without need of any magic waveform collapse or interaction with consciousness at the 'cost' of introducing many worlds (more than 10 to the 100) - wacky but logically consistent. The point is these are interpretations - none are proven - and so can't be used to 'prove' anything mystical about wider reality (though can be enjoyably speculated from).

A reductio ad absurdam of the extreme consiousness-related interpretation is illustrated well in Greg Egan's sf book Quarantine - namely the idea that the entire universe was in a probabilistic state until humans became conscious, and then collapsing matter spread outwards from us fixing everything as fast as our telescopes developed (killing civilisations who somehow existed in this quantum state in the process - it's an excellent book) - also, some physicist (einstein?) said 'does the moon become a probability wave if noone looks at it?' (or something like that)

The point about DMT having intelligence seems moot to me - if you give dmt to an inanimate object nothing happens - the intelligence all comes from our amazing brain/consciousness (wherever you think that consciousness happens to be located/connected to).

 

[Doldrugs]

The point about DMT having intelligence seems moot to me - if you give dmt to an inanimate object nothing happens - the intelligence all comes from our amazing brain/consciousness (wherever you think that consciousness happens to be located/connected to).

When you talk to an inanimate object nothing happens. It doesn't mean you're not intelligent. Honestly it doesn't mean the rock isn't intelligent, either. You have to do a lot more observing and experimenting to determine that.

I don't think it's a moot point. Neither do the "intelligent DMT" crowd. Where our consciousness comes from is an unsolved mystery. My personal belief is that we are all computers. It's in the hardware and the software of our brains. But I'd be the first to admit it's not proven. I think it's the most likely option, based on what I know of science, but I am open to any possibility, given independently repeatable evidence.

There are many great mysteries science hasn't answered... yet. Whether DMT is intelligent isn't one of those mysteries. DMT is a molecule. It cannot have intelligence without a complete rejection of everything we know about intelligence. It cannot connect us to any other intelligence without a complete rejection of everything we know about the physical laws of the universe. There is no evidence that it is anything other than a drug that causes the mind to function differently.

People who believe these kinds of unscientific ideas don't realize how arbitrary they're being. Why believe one unscientific fantasy but not the others? To them I ask, do you believe in Sumerian mythology? Hollow earth? Ancient aliens? If I make something up right now, will you believe that? Why intelligent DMT or entity contact, but not those other things?

 

[swilow]

''One of the key principles of quantum physics is that our thoughts determine reality. Early in the 1900’s they proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt with an experiment called the double slit experiment. They found that the determining factor of the behavior of energy (‘particles’) at the quantum level is the awareness of the observer.

As was said earlier, there is not much point in trying to scale up quantum effects. These effects are apparent only when ocurring within the quantum realm; scaling them up is not possible. It would not be the same phenomena.

For example: electrons under the same conditions would sometimes act like particles, and then at other times they would switch to acting like waves (formless energy), because it was completely dependent on what the observer expected was going to happen. Whatever the observed believed would occur is what the quantum field did.

That's not exactly true. The observer in these experiements is passive. Its just that subatomic partciles can be measured as both a particle and wave by interaction with a subject. It doesn't even need to be human or sentient; the presence of an electron interactng and relating with a photon is enough to cause the wave function collapse. Intent is immaterial here.

The quantum world is waiting for us to make a decision so that it knows how to behave. That is why quantum physicists have such difficulties in dealing with, explaining, and defining the quantum world. We are truly, in every sense of the word, masters of creation because we decide what manifests out of the field of all-possibility and into form.''

Again not correct. These experiments show that attempts to observe sub-atomic particles influence their behaviour or apparent behaviour. This says nothing about desire or intention, just that a passive observation is enough to reveal differing characterstics of the same phenomena. No scientist has ever said that, through thought alone could they change the actual behaviour of the particles, just that these particles are able to exhibit behaviours thought to be dualistic and seperate in the right circumstances.

Again though, despite the real weirdness and lack of explanation science has for some quantum effects, it should be noted that this is not applicable to the macro/observable universe.

I'm all up for science, I love my science, I honestly do but it seems you are somewhat reluctant to the idea of 'more', apologies if I have got this wrong, it just seems that way on this thread.

But didn't you just try to use science to prove that humans have magical thought-powers? That seems contradictory to me.

I think DMT is amazing and utterly bizarre, but I think believing it is magical, sentient or hyperdimensional is over complicating things. I don't know what it is; I do believe that it evolved alongside consciousness (as did things like serotonin, adrenaline, etc) and plays a role in here somewhere, but I am not buying its place of being fundamental in the way that some enthusiasts do

Good shit though indeed

 

[Bagseed]

That's not exactly true. The observer in these experiements is passive. Its just that subatomic partciles can be measured as both a particle and wave by interaction with a subject. It doesn't even need to be human or sentient; the presence of an electron interactng and relating with a photon is enough to cause the wave function collapse. Intent is immaterial here.

willow is right, electrons -are- particles with a mass, even though it's tiny, but we can't observe where it is located exactly, thus in calculations, we see it as a wave, which is much easier to handle. actually you can see every piece of matter as a wave, but it only makes sense when working with very small chunks (eg elementary particles, etc).