The Insatiable Thirst for Knowledge

[damenohito]

All we have that isn't bordered, bounded and stuck is our consciousness, and all the mind does is complain that it's bored.

if i understand correctly, are you saying that it is our knowledge as well as our existence that is limited, but our imagination (i.e. consciousness) that may be infinite? if so, i agree wholeheartedly, and to provide theapplecore with some piece of mind, wouldn't that (our consciousness) qualify as one thing we do know?

 

[ziggo]

"The only parts of reality that I seem to hold in some degree of familiarity, also seem incredibly superficial. Physics. Stuff. Matter, and energy. Perceptions, emotions.

They're all just little disconnected bits and pieces. I want unification. What describes everything? Every one of these little tidbits branches from what initial point?

Is there any hope at all for an end to this quest? If not, how can I learn to accept that these things are simply out of reach?"


The unification underlying those tidbits and pieces you have described as being "Physics. Stuff. Matter, and energy. Perceptions, emotions." is obviously none other than god almighty; the creator, preserver and transcender of all things in the universe, also known as "krishna," meaning "all attractive." Because the supreme personality of godhead, in his various names and guises, has initially created this entire universe and is the sound of OM the original vibration, it is from HE and SHE in unity(the god all mighty), that all things have branched out of and is also this initial point you speak of.

You ask if there is an end to the quest and i submit to you that there is. The end of the quest if found in the start, which is god himself. Through gods unlimited opulence and mercy, he has created us all so that we may become whichever we wish to be through our own karma. This is established through collecting the vibrations of the acts of which we do. Whichever acts we pursue creates a vibration that stays with us. When we die, this vibration, whatever it may be, will determine the next body we will inhibit. This is stated in the bhagavad-gita.

So then what is the point of it all? One might say that there is no point. Why does a tree have a seed, only for that seed to become a tree, to have another seed? Life just is for the sake of being so. There is no point. Its just a ride, and through gods grace, as his children, he has given us this entire universe for our splendor. But who is the ultimate enjoyer? The ultimate enjoyer of all things to be, is none other than god himself. Through our enjoyment, god enjoys too. But the greatest enjoyment is when we offer our joys to the ultimate enjoyer himself, it is the reciprocated over and over in a never ending cycle of Bhakti. This bhakti vibration, or krishna consciousness, also collects in our karma and at our time of death, it may be what liberates us from having to be born again because we show the universe our main interest is in god, so through this, we will be delivered to god and freed from the ocean of illusion and suffering.

The hope to end the quest lies in god, the cause of all causes. You can learn to accept god, but never accept that he is out of reach. How can god ever be out of reach for anyone? god is everywhere at all times, and even resides with each individual soul in our hearts. If u wish to find god, look first in your heart. You will never go wrong, you will never be lead astray. You will find home. Home is where the heart is, and what lies in the heart is god. So may god be our eternal home, now and forever. Hare krishna!

If you are interested in what i have said, please check out this book: "the science of self realization"- His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

from my experiences I will 2nd all of this as truth at this time.

 

[SpinOutOfControl]

What may be true today may not be true tomorrow. What may be true this second may not be true the next. As soon as you stop and try to look at something it moves and changes. When you try to place yourself in a location, you can't because it has already moved someplace else. I believe everything is dynamic.

 

[High Yogi]

You are confusing truth for being good and bad, truth lies in all things weather good or bad. You cannot say that truth changes. What is true today will still be true tomorrow, it will just be a past truth.

I do see what you are getting at though, you are saying that what we consider to be good, or as we would LIKE to say, "true", this moment will be considered bad the next. But those good and bad are based on cultural dogmas and not real truths. real truths are true in any existence, time and place. They are teachings and a means for one to realize himself to the highest degree and for the highest purpose, through the workings of creation itself. A prime example one could use to realize the fact that truth can remain constant throughout all time and circumstance is the bhagavad-gita. The bhagavad-gita still bears truth that work for people in todays society that worked for Arjuna thousands of years ago

IME, Ive come to the understanding that truth is an essence, pure as the purest crystal. And this essence also has a sort of structure. Every bit of truth that you come to, even the smallest, if followed, may carry one to the original source of truth. I believe all things bear an essence. If you follow the essence of truth in deep meditation, it may deliver you to the root source. You may state something small; Im wearing a green shirt, then you follow it through. This shirt is so and so big, i got it from this place, that place is in that city by there, that city there did this, and u go on for a while and pretty soon you find yourself in deep truth that is very liberating.

 

[ziggo]

dude ya if you're open to learning any truth/lesson and want to know more, you will!

Could the source of truth be the ultimate creator of this universe? I know anything I feel as truth nowadays is very positive and helpful to me, this positivity keeps me searching deeper.

 

[High Yogi]

Here is one of my favorite mantras, I believe it has a lot to say about what we are talking about. This is a very beautiful, eloquent and sacred mantra, please use with respect, sincerity and devotion.

Eck Ong Kar
Sat Nam Siri
WaHe Guru

"There is only ONE god who created this creation
Truth is his name
Highest wonderous one who brings light"

It clearly states the fact that there really is only ONE god, ONE supreme being, creator, preserver and transcender(the three acts of existence) of this entire universe(creation).

Truth is his name! So, wherever we speak of truth, he is to be found. This must be, ziggo, why u always feel so positive after hearing the truth, you are in touch with god!

"Highest wonderous one who brings light" thats what a guru is, a bringer of light.--WaHe guru, Highest wonderous one who brings light.

The title of this thread is called "insatiable thirst for knowledge," but whereon is this thirst quenched? When will we ever be satisfied with our being in all honesty and truth, without any need for knowledge or reason?

If you think about it, knowledge and reason are a fools attempt at truth. Sure it can get us from here to there, but what kind of knowledge liberates us from here and there entirely? How, as the OP said, can one put an end to this quest? The answer to this lies in the supreme knowledge, or ultimate truth.

What is this supreme knowledge or ultimate truth i speak of? It is none other than Bhakti, or eternal and selfless love for god, the supreme being, however you take him to be. To me it is understood, that each and every human's highest ideal, whatever it may be, is his conception of god. This is why the name "krishna" is so accepted by various people of the world. "krishna" means "all attractive," one who is attracted by all people, everywhere and under any circumstance. I am in great pain from a serious disease in india, I pray to my god, my highest ideal, and you are scared to death of a lion in the jungle; you too pray to god as your highest ideal, but we are both praying to the same god, the same energy. Sure, maybe we use a different name, but it is the same one god none the less. If i were a musician and a wrestler, perhaps my musician name would differ from my wrestling name? But I would be the same person without a doubt.

So, you see, The highest revelation one can come to, the embodiment of all knowledge and wisdom, the greatest truth and, the ultimate level of reality, whatever one may wish to call it, is none other than god himself; and it is in he where all thirst for knowledge is quenched and brought to cease.

In the Bhagavad-gita, krishna himself says: But it is I who am the ritual, I the sacrifice, the offering to the ancestors, the healing herb, the transcendental chant; I am the butter the fire and the offering.

I am the father, mother, maintainer and grandfather of all this universe. I am what is to be known, i am purity, and i am the syllable OM. I am the Vedas.

O Arjuna, I control heat, the rain and the drought. I am immortality, and i am death personified. Both being and non being are in Me.

Those who study the Vedas and drink the soma juice worship me Indirectly, seeking heavenly planets. They take birth on Indraloka where they enjoy godly delights.

When they have thus enjoyed heavenly sense pleasure, they return to this mortal planet again. Thus through the vedic principles they only achieve only flickering happiness.

But those who devote themselves steadfastly to Me, meditating on My transcendental form, recieve all bounties and securities from me.

Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for me alone, but it is offered without true understanding.

For I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. They fall down who do not recognize my true transcendental nature.

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods, those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings, and who who worship me will live with me.

If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I will accept it.

I am the goal, the upholder, the master, the witness, the home, the shelter and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed.

To summarize, ill use another quote: "You intellectual fools, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda! Your grammatical knowledge and word jugglery will not save you at the time of death."

 

[Quantum Perception]

Certainty is an ill fated head-trip, brought about by our conceptualizing mind in order to break down the world in to communicable information.

People say that one cant know with "certainty" what is out there. That assumes a possible state which comprehends everything knowable. This I think is where the impasse lies.
Certainty is like the object in-of-itself which is infinitely withdrawn, it is imaginable and can help us accomplish certain tasks, but it does not exist, because no matter how much you probe matter inward(or outward), there is always more to see- there are no fundamental parts or states of matter.

In other words, certainty does not exist, not because we lack access to it, but because a state of certainty is metaphysically-epistemologically impossible.

 

[High Yogi]

Certainty is an ill fated head-trip, brought about by our conceptualizing mind in order to break down the world in to communicable information.

People say that one cant know with "certainty" what is out there. That assumes a possible state which comprehends everything knowable. This I think is where the impasse lies.
Certainty is like the object in-of-itself which is infinitely withdrawn, it is imaginable and can help us accomplish certain tasks, but it does not exist, because no matter how much you probe matter inward(or outward), there is always more to see- there are no fundamental parts or states of matter.

In other words, certainty does not exist, not because we lack access to it, but because a state of certainty is metaphysically-epistemologically impossible.

I believe there are different levels of certainty. for example, i am absolutely certain that i can complete 20 push ups right now. Why? because i have done at least 30 every day for the past year.(this is just an example)So, without a doubt, i can complete 20 push ups.

It is this state of being "without a doubt" that i believe is what certainty is.

But how can this work on a higher scale? How can one be without a doubt, certain over a higher truth, such as gods existence? I think that it all depends on whatever each individual person takes to come to that realiziation, but i do not think that it is impossible to ever reach a certainty on such a matter. I can say that i am certain god does exist. It obviously cannot be so easily expressed in words, let alone through text. One cannot say why one has faith and believes, one just does. I just know and feel it in my heart to be so.

I mean, i used to be atheist for a while. I used to not know and not even care about whats what, or whose who. But what brought upon the understanding and realization for me was Beauty. I have read a quote somewhere that stuck to me because i saw it as so true. The quote was "beauty is gods handwriting" and immediately after reading it, it resonated with my heart because sometime before that, i was in a deep trance meditation and i saw that all things are one, and that they are one in such a beautiful and diverse array of variety. I was astonished. With such beauty and magnificence in this creation, there must be some special magical force behind it all, and my conclusion was that this force is none other than god. So i suppose that i am absolutely certain that god does exist through his beauty in all of creation.

 

[Quantum Perception]

I believe there are different levels of certainty. for example, i am absolutely certain that i can complete 20 push ups right now. Why? because i have done at least 30 every day for the past year.(this is just an example)So, without a doubt, i can complete 20 push ups.

It is this state of being "without a doubt" that i believe is what certainty is.

.

That feeling of "without a doubt" can be contradicted by illusion. You are sure you did 20 push ups. But what did you push up from, as there is no duality? And if you want to take the world as real, then what of dreams or hallucinations? These are all thought to be real but turn out otherwise. Even the push ups you did are called in to question if you contemplate how matter is mostly made up of empty space on the atomic and sub-atomic levels.

There is no certainty, yet every stage is certain and complete in-itself. Its like as if our search for certainty is a strange loop where we seem to go further but really we never move at all, and our models/truths/certainties keep changing but are always as certain as they can be for that time.

 

[High Yogi]

Yes, I suppose the feeling of being without a doubt can be contradicted by illusion because perhaps it is an illusion that has me feeling without a doubt, thus my certainty being false. However, there are still certainties out there that cannot disproven. Let me go back to my push up example. If I really have done at least 30 push ups every day for the last year, than what would be the cause of doubt for me not to be able to perform only 20 today? There would be no cause or reason for me to doubt my abilities and performance, because for the last 365 days i have done over 30, so then, why today, for no reason, would i not be able to do only 20? A certainty such as this can easily be claimed.

You said i did 20 push ups, but what from, since there is no duality? I am not exactly sure what you mean by this, but dual or non dual, thats not the point. The point is my being certain of my ability to perform the duty. This certainty arises out of the state of being without a doubt, which i conclude through factual evidence. The factual evidence being "if i can do at least 30 every day for a year, most certainly i can do at least 20 now"

You ask what do i make of dreams and hallunications? I like what Terence Mckenna said. He said that people always want to disregard dreams and hallucinations from being true. But that they are real and true, they are about as real as it gets. I mean If i go to sleep tonight or take LSD and i have profound visions, visions so profound that i am taught something of important significance, whether retaining to my life or the universe, than does that mean that whatever i learned is false or a lie, because it was "just a vision"? NO! of course not! visions are just other parts of reality. I mean, a vision isnt much like a car, but then again, a cars not much like a vision!

You say my push ups are called into question because matter is mostly made up of empty space on the atomic and sub-atomic levels, but im not on the atomic or sub-atomic level am i? and matter is mostly empty space not just on an atomic or sub atomic level, but on a universal level. the entire universe is mostly empty space.

If there is no certainty, than how can every stage be certain and complete in itself?

I Think the problem lies in trying to find certainty, certainty is not a state of being one can come to through mere logic, it has to be felt and understood directly. One can never be certain about something by looking for it or thinking about it. Just like love. I cannot just go out and find true love, that would be ridiculous to even think about. True love is something that just happens on its own accord, so too, does certainty.

 

[Quantum Perception]

^I guess my idea of certainty is something verifiable and objective like human perception or scientific instruments.

If we take you idea of subjective certainty for example, then every phenomenon is certain. Therefore there would be no distinction between certain and uncertain.

When I speak of certainty, I mean objectively.

 

[High Yogi]

^I guess my idea of certainty is something verifiable and objective like human perception or scientific instruments.

If we take you idea of subjective certainty for example, then every phenomenon is certain. Therefore there would be no distinction between certain and uncertain.

When I speak of certainty, I mean objectively.

What makes either theory subjective or objective? I am making an observation about certainty. Certainty is the state of being without a doubt, is it not? If i am without a doubt about my ability to do something, lets say push ups, then i am certain. If, however, I have somewhere in my head a doubt, perhaps even the smallest doubt, i can not say that i am certain. Either you have doubts or you have certainty. You cannot have both.

 

[damenohito]

i have to state that one thing i believe is not objective is human perception, but to address the topic of "certainty", perhaps a major challenge is what we are willing to accept "with certainty". for instance, perhaps doubt or even ignorance is one thing we can accept "with certainty", but who wants to take comfort in that? don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be a misanthrope, but i'm just saying that there may be vast amounts of truth, wisdom, knowledge, etc., available to us, but the problem lies with what we are willing to accept (i.e. our definitions) that appear to be the obstacle. quite honestly, i am mostly satisfied not understanding some topics "with certainty" because it gives me something to constantly search and explore.

 

[Dedbeet]

What makes either theory subjective or objective? I am making an observation about certainty. Certainty is the state of being without a doubt, is it not? If i am without a doubt about my ability to do something, lets say push ups, then i am certain. If, however, I have somewhere in my head a doubt, perhaps even the smallest doubt, i can not say that i am certain. Either you have doubts or you have certainty. You cannot have both.

Certainty is absence of doubt, but doubt is not absence of certainty; it's presence of doubt.

All the positives are actually negative/absences, and all the negatives/absences are actually positive/presences.

Once this is clear, negativity starts to look fine! And the search to feel positive is seen clearly as what always made everything suck so bad.

 

[High Yogi]

Certainty is absence of doubt, but doubt is not absence of certainty; it's presence of doubt.

All the positives are actually negative/absences, and all the negatives/absences are actually positive/presences.

Once this is clear, negativity starts to look fine! And the search to feel positive is seen clearly as what always made everything suck so bad.

You said that doubt is not an absence of certainty because it is presence of doubt, i think this is false. I think doubt is both, the presence of doubt AND the absence of certainty. It is the absence of certainty BECAUSE it is the presence of doubt, and its the presence of doubt BECAUSE its the absence of certainty. Do you get this? This is alchemy.

And i believe you are wrong when you said that the positives are ACTUALLY negative/absences and all the negative absences are ACTUALLY positive/presences. You are saying this is as if it is fact. However i submit to you that this is wrong. This is just an optimistic way of looking at the same thing. The thing exists in itself as a positive/negative, in all situations and every circumstance. The positive and negative are forever inseparable because they can only exist by existing through each other. You are saying that it is only one way, however, it goes both ways. You are giving an optimistic approach to the duality. This is wrong-view, and the pessimist is wrong as well. Both the optimist and the pessimist are wrong. WHY? because they dont see both sides. The optmist see the bright side, the pessimist sees the dark side. BUT BOTH SIDES EXIST! and not only do both sides exist, but both sides exist TOGETHER AT ALL TIMES. By knowing that both sides exist at all times, as two ends to the same pole, you dont seek for the extremes because the extremes are too close to the edge and you may fall off. If you are too bent on being positive, you will be greatly dissapointed because something may not meet your expectations. And if you are too bent on being negative, you may find happiness in this misery, but this happiness is false and unsatisfactory, this breeds foolishness. So, you must stick to the middle way. Its all about realizing that both sides exist and not getting caught in the extremes; too see the positive and the negative as one in the same. Happiness or unhappiness, its all the same-emotion. We must overcome these emotional extremes with equanimity.

This too is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquility. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.

A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a yogi [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence and is self-controlled. He sees everything--whether it be pebbles, stones or gold--as the same.

A person is said to be still further advanced when he regards all--the honest well-wisher, friends and enemies, the envious, the pious, the sinner and those who are indifferent and impartial--with an equal mind.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Great responses.



I'd never really considered the nature of certainty itself -- and now I see it as the absence of doubt indeed. Now, certainty seems to have lost its appeal. (!) Doubt is just a meaningless element of human perception, not necessarily connected with reality -- a paranoid is absent of doubt that he is being followed -- see what I mean?

Certainty comes from developing "knowledge" by a means that is considered to consistently and reliably inform us of reality. But with good reason, you say! Now, what is the reason for the credibility of this "good reason"? And the reason for that? And that? You can't have an infinite chain of reasons for believing something -- ultimately you've got to come to a dead-end, which is, the belief in something purely because it is an assumption ingrained into human psychology. It's like a child, responding to every sentence you utter with the question, "why?". Eventually, the answer is... "I don't know."

It's funny -- now I'm tempted to ask the question, "Now why should we trust in the validity of a psychologically innate assumption?" Which of course, would just begin another chain-regression, ending in -- you guessed it -- a psychologically innate assumption. 8( :D

 

[KingBlueTwista]

The only 'truth' we have access to is directly channeled through our consciousness; our immediate perceptions and feelings. The 'truth' is not even that they correlate to anything in reality but solely that their existence cannot be doubted. Solipsism isn't the most convenient way to view the world, but it's the only logical position to take in regards to grasping any sort of undoubtable idea.

Every external system through which we acquire knowledge, for example physics, is necessarily built up through the framework of a language be it mathematical or literary in nature. Because language itself is necessarily an approximation or an abstraction of what it refers to then the 'truth' cannot be found using it, only gradually tended towards as increasingly convoluted relations of the constituents of language are positioned intricately into an ever mind-boggling matrix of inherently polluted symbolism and slapped with a label reading 'truth'.

Although logic does determine the relations between a set of concepts, irregardless of their inability to accurately reflect reality, so I guess you could say that the way logic works is a sort of truth as well, however abstract.

 

[panic in paradise]

KBT
Because language itself is necessarily an approximation or an abstraction of what it refers to then the 'truth' cannot be found using it, only gradually tended towards as increasingly convoluted relations of the constituents of language are positioned intricately into an ever mind-boggling matrix of inherently polluted symbolism and slapped with a label reading 'truth'.

yeah, simplicity -
its ' deep realization '.