the great debate: Is responsible, controlled, "successful" opiate use EVER possible?

[hydrochron]

Yes it's possible to use opiates responsibly. I usually give my prescription to somone else to hang onto for me, and give me x amount every week. It works out really good.

Other times i've been able to use them only when I've had pain. So yes it's possible, but alot of people I think make up shit in there heads. Like "ok i'll only take opiates twice a week", then they'll be like "oh well 3 times wont hurt" "4 days isn't going to change anything" ECT. Alot of it's in your head, if your not physically addicted.

Peace

 

[Khadijah]

What is the difference between options #2 & #4?

I was interpreting it 2 as "Yes, it can be done for most people, assuming they use due caution" and 4 as "No, except for a small minority.

yea, you got it. Sirtopham, the 2 options are just 2 different stops along the spectrum.

number 1 is a person who thinks that its entirely possible, not necessarily rare, and generally much more common than people tend to think it is. The person who will say "Not everyone gets addicted! Theres tons of people out there who use responsibly and never get addicted, you just never heard about them cuz they aint addicts and they fly under the radar cuz they got their shit together so good! It aint opiates that will addict you, its the person who cant control himself!"

number 2 is a more conservative version of number 1. The idea that yea, it can be done, but it aint necessarily something that EVERYBODY can do. and it takes certain circumstances, a certain personality, etc to be able to--but if those are all in place then yes its possible.

And number 4 as a more conservative number 2. Itss basically "i really doubt it, but theres exceptions to every rule, so i guess there is a few people out there who can do it, never say never. but most likely, 9 outta 10 people will not be 'that guy' who is able to do it so if you are sayin 'it IS possible, there is SOME people who dont get addicted, so thats proof that I can do it!' you should think about the fact that the the odds are against you, and just becuz a small amount of people can do it dont mean that YOU can. Its like winning the lottery. yea, it DOES happen, and somebody got to win, but realistically, most likely, you just aint gonna be the one."

Hope that explains it a little better.

anyways, i would love to see yalls answers to all the questions in the OP if you got the time and the desire to fill em out. Im especially interested in peoples opinions of whether or not its possible for an addict to ever use responsibly again, becuz that is a thing that lots of people are dead set against, and i constantly hear "if you are an addict, you might think you can control it, but you can never use again! youre an addict! its just your addiction tricking you! no addict can use, there aint no such thing as responsible use for an addict otherwise you wouldnt have been addicted in the first place, so dont even try!" I disagree with that idea so I am curious to see how other people feel about that question in particular too. Anyways, keep the replies comin yall!

 

[cj]

1.Short term absolutly I did it for a few years. Though it depends on the drug I never had a problem with hydrocodone or oxycodone but as soon as heroin came along I was addicted very fast. Long Term it gets tricky I think it depends on availability and what other drugs your using I found when I had access to alot of different drugs I had an easier time controlling opiates but once I could only get heroin it became nearly impossible. I really think it depends on the drug and route of administration hydrocodone is a far cry from IV heroin.

2.depends on the person if you are an addict in mentality then you will have problems IMO. I know people who have dabbled for years and never had a problem but this is true for them with all drugs. For me I have an addictive personallity so it was only a matter of time before I became addicted.

3. I dont think so least have never met anyone who has been succesful at doing this unless they were on some kind of maintence. I can do it right now because Im on suboxone but if I wasnt I would end up on heroin again in no time.

4.Not having a steady supply is the easiest way. My best friend likes heroin but he has to go through me to get it and I wont let him get addicted so as long as it stays like this he will be strait.

5.There are always exceptions

 

[Khadijah]

crimsonjunk, as far as ur answer for question 4, whether or not you are on maintenance really aint relevant to the question IMO. If you are an ex addict and you use responsibly you are using responsibly regardless of if u on maintenance or not. If you went out of control and lost your shit you would end up going off maintenance so you could keep gettin high more and more you feel me? I aint sayin you wrong i am just curious of why you think a person bein on maintenance makes a difference or makes it "not count" as responsible/successful use?

Anyways, you should meet my man. Im on methadone and been for over a year. Durin that year, I used occasionally, like 4 or 5 times, once every few months or every month, there was really no schedule or nothing. when the time and situation was right and it felt right, i did it.

The thing is, all during that time when i was successfully using occasionally on the done, my man was doing the same exact thing with me-each of those times we used together, each time we copped, got high for exactly one day, and then did not do it again for a long time. The thing is tho, he wasnt on methadone, suboxone, or nothing at all else during that time. Not even smokin weed or takin any other kind of drugs that might be seen as substituting one for another, no drinking, etc. He used side by side with me, once in a blue moon, after we both quit a long term dope habit of shooting over a half a brick a day each (brick = 50 bags if you aint familiar with that term used in the places where stamp bags are sold like jersey). We were some fucked the fuck up addicts and got in serious trouble, each of us 3 arrests, our lives were total chaos and completely fucked. shit was bad yo, it wasnt no damn joke, the first time i shot dope i was 16 years old, I am a few mos. away from being 24 now and used dope and opiates for just about that whole time. i spent a good chunk of my life hooked on that shit, you know? My man wasnt on it as long as i was, but he was bootin dope for about 2 years, and had been sniffin dope and oxys for about a year before that.

so to you crimsonjunk my successful post addicttion use might not count since i am on methadone, but my man accomplished the exact same thing, WITHOUT the done, so theres your proof right there. Ive known a couple people who did this, it really aint common but it is defiantely possible. it just takes the right type of person and somebody who got a lot of self discipline and a very deep understanding of themself and why they were addicted, who is very self aware and honest with themself, and most importantly, somebody who is truly happy and satisfied with their life, to be able to chip now and then after being a opiate addict. If you still got a hole in ya soul you gonna end up fallin back in eventually, most likely, but if you do more than just quit--if you really do some work on yourself, get your head straight, grow the fuck up, and begin to learn to love your life without drugs, and you truly appreciate and enjoy that life for wat it is, then it becomes pretty damn easy, actually, to use occasionally without no stress.

If you are clean, a 'recovered addict', but all you did was to stop using, then i dont believe its gonna be possible for you to use successfully without becomin addicted again. It aint that simple. you cant just stop using and think that then you can go back to recreational use from time to time...You gotta change who you are and how you think and a whole bunch of shit, basically reprogram yourself, before you can be able to use like a non-addict again, but its absolutely , absolutely possible. me and my man aint the only 2 people in the world who accomplished it.

for both of us, it wasnt like "i want to use more, but i can control it and i wont let myself use more cuz i got willpower." becuz that want, that gnawing urge in your mind like hey come on have some more, that old addict mentality, is a sign that you maybe aint progressed far enough past that old self into your new self to have success. Even if you able to control it, even if you say "Nope, i aint gonna do it, i got this shit in check, im on top of it and i dont let myself use more than once per _______" and shit like that, its still very possible that you gonna end up addicted again becuz those feelings and that addictive tendency is still there. the fact that you NEED to control it, instead of naturally not even wanting to keep doing it after you get a taste here and there, the fact that you want to use more than occasionally , is a bad sign. like i said, even if you do control it, the fact that you have to is a sign that you aint ready yet.

I think that for an addict, the only way it can really work out long term is when you are genuinely satisfied, happy and fulfilled, satisfied with your life....truly happy for the first time in years and years and years. ENJOYING your life off the drugs, instead of feeling like "hey, this aint as fun but i know its the better option so ima deal with it." When you actually feel happier now, when you honestly, deep inside, dont still think "well this is ok but it would be better on dope"...When you dont feel that giant emptiness that you used to try and fill with dope, when your feelings towards opiates are take it or leave it, and you would enjoy gettin high, but you also dont care whether or not you can get high and would also be perfectly just as happy if you didnt get high....Thats when you are startin to get into the right head space to be able to use recreationally again. For me and my man, we didnt have that NEED to do dope, that obsession that keeps you craving it long after you kick if you dont get rid of your old mentality, we were long past those things. only when you leave that old addict self behind and become a new , fulfilled person with a real life again instead of just a shell with nothing inside except the shit related to your addiction, thats when you ready to dip in now and then.

It takes alot of time to get back to feelin like the person you used to be before you ever got addicted...but once you get there, its like the 'reset' button got pressed and you start from the beginning--but the thing is this time, you know all the tricks and dangers and shit along the way to look out for. instead of bein at square one settin out on the journey of opiate use without a guide and about to find shit out on your own thru experience, now you are back at the beginning with a second chance, but this time you know the trail, you know where the danger and risks is at, you know wats coming and how to avoid it, you older and wiser so it makes it much easier. Its like playing a video game for the first time, or playing it after you already beat it once, with all the cheat codes. I hope that makes sense, ima wrap it up cuz im real tired now and I dont wanna ramble on. Ill come up in here and fill out the survey tomorrow.

 

[cj]

I was just relating my experience I didnt mean for it to apply to everyone. for me Im a dope addict and I am having a really hard time removing that from who I am as a person. I dont disagree with what your saying for real I just think its very individual I really dont have much control over my heroin use if I have money and a way to get it then im getting high to hell with the consequences. I certainly didnt mean that people on maintence arent recovering or cant control there use I just know that for me personally I cant control my use of heroin I just love it to much. As Lou Reed said its my wife and its my life. I guess for me getting on suboxone hasnt stopped me from being an addict its just allowed me to live a semi normal life while continuing to use the most clean time I have put together is like a month. Now dont get me wrong im thankful for suboxone but its like getting a hersheys bar when you want snickers yea its chocolate but it aint the same. I dunno im gonna reread your response and think about it I don t feel like I have given a very good response.

 

[SirTophamHat]

thanx 4 the clarification, I am usually stoned when on bluelight so

I chose option 4, I don't think most people could keep up a habit without big problems along the way but it would be foolish to rule it out. There are also people who get really fucked up by addiction like us mortals but who are so rich / bountiful in resources that they are able to kick it or suffer through it no problem--well til death.

 

[sarsXdave]

I voted #2. I've never been an opie addict or even had any of the higher-tier opioids (like hydromorph, horse, etc.). But, I still have opinions to the questions posed.

1. In the short term, definitely. In the long term, it's definitely harder if you have a steady connection. I avoid asking for dealer connects or asking around for hook-ups for this reason. I just wait until I hear about a friend maybe selling a dozen after their wisdom teeth removal or other unexpected painful ordeal.

2. I don't agree with that as such a hard rule. Opies aren't everyone's drugs of choice, and for me, returns start diminishing really quickly without enough abstinence between uses. I still treat them with caution and try to be honest and self-aware. But, I think I'm a big enough fan of MJ, beer, and dexamphetamine that it helps deter me from getting deep enough into opies for physical addiction.

3. I do not believe that an addict is always an addict. BUT, past addiction does suggest to me that it will be much, much, MUCH harder to keep your use controlled. Maybe if enough conditions (environment, stressors, emotional state) have changed since your days of addiction you could do it.

4. A big one, I'd think, would be actively making sure that you have other fulfilling interests. Opioids can make me content with just a comfortable futon and some decent music. I've wasted a lot of time reading about them because they're just so fun for me to think about. They seem like they could make an otherwise shitty life not only bearable, but pleasurable for at least a few hours a night. So, making a conscious effort to keep yourself from being one-dimensional should really help.

Limiting the availability to you is also big. If you're the kind of person that keeps taking drugs on consecutive day if they're around, then only buy enough for one really satisfying dose. Maybe even make sure you have some weed or beer around so that they become a much more convenient alternative to trying to get a hold of and meeting your opie dealer.

5. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule when talking about human behavior, but I don't think I took extreme positions on the earlier questions, so I'm not sure what examples I'd use. Some people in certain environments and mindsets will be much more prone to addiction than others. The only real blanket statement I'd make is to always know that shit can go bad with a quickness if you're not being really honest with yourself. You have to accept that you may get to the point where you'll be thinking "I know this is fucking up my life" as you're taking your pills. You take a risk for euphoria that nice.

 

[SKL]

I vote somewhere between 1 and 2, I chose 2. I think it is totally possible.But a big caveat is that you are always on some level at risk to spin out into something that is less than responsible and controlled and successful. The trick is to minimize that risk, and here's how have tried to do so:

I have had opiates as a part of my life in a serious way for 5 or 6 years now, I first used them more than a decade ago, but didnt do anything approaching regular use till 2004-2005. Only a few instances looking back was I anything like a desperate, out of control junkie. Now, this is not 5 or 6 years of sustained use; much the opposite, it is part of a pattern that I have developed of, 2 or 3 times out of a year, going on an opiate vacation for a few weeks to a few months, depending, with a gentle taper upwards and a gentle taper downwards. Throughtout all of this I have been able to maintain a job and function pretty successfully in society.

All of this is predicated of course on having the funds for this (and not having to resort to low life type stuff in order to get it, which is a big part of the negative junkie lifestyle that gets attributed to the drugs, which is really not a drug related factor), and having the self-control to start the taper down eventually. Both of which I am blessed with.

However, I do feel the need to go on these vacations from time to time, and sometimes, between them, I feel some nasty depression and PAWS type stuff going on. I think the solution for me is to go on suboxone maintenance, eventually, at the end of the next binge/opiate vacation that I go with. And hat I think is a perfecte xample of responisble,contrilled,successful,sustained opiate use. My experiences with suboxone in the psat have been raelly good, I have done a sub taper of a mid-sized dope habit on 2 occasons and on both it was almost entirely painless. And sub on a daily basis is also a nice anti-depressant and all around tonic for existential angst and boredom, which is what opiates are good for in the first place.

But maybe I am the exception and not the rule.

One of my best friends was a righteous dope friend for 8 or 9 years ,held down good jobs,school,family obligations,all that,but eventually,after graduating college into uncertain economic circumstances and being in a fucked up relationship with a degenerate, out of control junkie girlfriend, he went totally off the rails and became the picture of a degenerate dope fiend. So even if you think you are in a god space with opiates there is the potential for it to go downhill,fast. It is always a RISK,even in responsiblecntrolled,successful use,but it is possible to take that risk,minimize it,and not fall victim to it, and reap the benefits of responsible,controlled,successful use.

And as far as coming back from degeneraet addiciton and coming back to a more responsible pattern,i think that it is possible,I have seen it, but not very often,I think that the RISK i outlined above is unacceptably high in most of those scenarios,but I think a lot of that has more to do with socioeconomic factors & learned behaviors as regardss your relationship with dope.

 

[bampot]

"Chipping"?

How successful, or not, have you been at taking opiates recreationally without developing a physical addiction? I am particularly interested in people who have had a daily habit, got over it, but still manage to take opiates occasionally (ie. twice a week or less), as I know from experience and my reading that anyone who has had a habit in the past is more easily addicted. Is it inevitable that one day you slip and you're back to square one?

I've recently quit a large (50g daily) kratom habit (which I personally consider an opiod, not interested into getting into the pharmacology of this) and still want to continue doing it occasionally.

I once experimented with taking heroin in such a way as to not get addicted. Tried doing it every other day...experienced withdrawals (by the way, I completely disagree with William Burroughs' assertion that it takes a month of daily use to get addicted). Tried every three days, still experienced withdrawals. Pretty much gave up hope of any functional regular use being possible with at that point.

Kratom on the other hand, I soon gave in to. I did, and still do, love it. I'm currently in Australia, and had to quite cold turkey before I came. Happy that I kicked it, but don't want to give it up for good. I'm reckoning I should be fine doing it no more than once every three days...luckily I was prescribed some 30mg codeine pills before I came here, and this technique seems to be working so far with these, but looking forward to getting back to my drug of choice.

Thoughts? Is this more possible with some opiates/opiods than others? Has anyone managed to chip for a long time (ie. years) without slipping back into old habits?

 

[Coolwhip]

I fit that bill pretty well. Been using for 10 years, had maybe 3 cumulative years of sobriety in there, longest being an almost 2 year stretch that ended 18 months ago. I was a daily user for 6 years, since relapsing 18 months ago I used daily for the first year and have been working it back for the last 6 months.

Besides it taking years, and being a daily struggle, to control my use...the biggest problem is how easily I get sick now.

The longer you been doing opiates, the harder you've been doing them, the quicker your body gets dependent again. Like, 6 yeas ago, when I was using daily, and MUCH heavier than I am now, if I were to get clean(full blown WDs) for a couple weeks, I could go on a 3-4 day bender and be kind of hungover on the 5th and 6th day but not sick.

But now, even though my tolerance is lower than it has been in many years, even though I regularly take breaks, even though I limit my use, if I come off a month of sobriety and use for 3 days straight I will be sick as ever. If I come off a week of sobriety and use heavily for just 2 days straight, I will be sick.

That's the problem, you think you have a hold on it, and your DOC is working better than ever, so you think it is OK to use friday night, saturday, and a little on sunday morning...BUT OH NOS, you wake up on Monday in WDs...now you have to use to go to work. Now you are stuck using until Friday. You know how it goes.

Sooo...I don't dose on consecutive days, EVER. No more than 3 days a week. And generally on days that I use, depending on what I am doing that day, I try to take a large dose in the morning, and a light dose in the afternoon(or none), and nothing at night. But when I want to get faded, I make sure to take only a small dose or two throughout the day and dose heavily at night. I don't stay high from waking to sleep.

And I take LDN(2mg if I used within the past 12 hours, 4mg otherwise) every night. Along with a few other things such as DXM when I dose heavily, regular consumption of blackseed, DLPA, and try my best to eat healthy/live healthy. Also take a large dose of naltrexone before taking a 3-7 day break, mostly to make sure I get over the hump, but also to help sensitize my receptors.

If I dose 2 days in a row, I will at LEAST be very very weak on the third/fourth day with light sweats.

If you can take control, which is the hard part, then you just got to be very careful you don't end up HAVING to use because you made yourself sick. I don't know if it is because my use it light(I only "go for a nod" once a week), or if it is because of the LDN, or the supplements I take, or what. But I don't get sick like this, I get depressed, but I don't get sick.

I haven't used Kratom since my first time trying it, when I decided it was useless, but my habit was too big then. I am about to order more to see if I can put a more than 48 hours between each use of real opies, but I am afraid if I do I will end up dosing 'something' everyday, and just switch between opies/kratom, and end up dependent again. So I am hesitant. Maybe in a month I will have more confidence that I can replace a couple days of opiate use with Kratom instead of just adding the kratom.

 

[suessmayr]

I always laugh at these threads. The problem is of course that people who claim to be able to use 'casually' are inevitably not at the end of their story. If you'd asked me a few years ago how I was going I would have said "yeah, great, I'm using every few days or every week and it's not affecting me". But it's only in hindsight that you can see how truly it's all bullshit.

Even if this were not the case, and some people could genuinely and persistently use opiates casually, they would not be people like you - who have had a past addiction. Sorry man but the correct and obvious answer is "fucking no way, you can't use opiates casually". I would be deeply sceptical of anyone who claims otherwise.

 

[Coolwhip]

I generally agree with everything suessmayr just said. I am not typical, I am not at the end of my road, I probably will fuck my life up again before it is over with.

But I am not that young or dumb anymore, I am not in denial about being a junkie, and I am not rationalizing my use. My use is effecting me negatively, my use is holding me back. But I am just a man, and without opiates I am generally worthless, and suicidal. I am just trying to keep my habit from bankrupting me without killing myself.

 

[bampot]

hmmmm....I see what you're saying suessmayr. However, I don't believe that there is necessarily a black and white "you are addicted to drugs or completely sober". Personally, I fully accept that I am a drug addict. The thing is, I vary my drugs, and have periods of abstinence. I am addicted to altered states, but try to avoid addiction (especially physical addiction) to any one drug. My kratom habit was the only time I have broken this rule, and only because it actually made me more functional, among other things.

So...are you saying that it is impossible for a former junkie to use occasionally without eventually lapsing? And Coolwhip: I'm interested in the fact that you agree what Suessmayr says, but yet at the same time seem to have been "successful" at chipping. Would you say that you were in a constant state of low-level withdrawal, using twice a week? Have you stopped for a week or more and compared your physical state?

Finally...does all this apply equally to kratom as to true opiates? Personally I actually prefer the former.

Of course, deep down what I am really looking for is for someone to say: "yes, it is possible to use kratom twice a week without eventually reverting to daily use". But given enough evidence to the contrary, I am willing to entertain the idea that this is impossible.

EDIT: PS - can you give me some history Suessmayr? I take it you're fully off the opiates now, having tried and failed to use casually? When you say "end of their story"...how long was your "story" , and how did it end?

 

[Coolwhip]

Well we will see how long I can hold it together.

But no, I am not now in a state of low level WD, not anymore than I was after being sobre for a year at least.

Since my last detox, when I restructured my use, I don't get sick on days I don't use, I don't have the shits, I rarely get the sweats. But I don't know if it will stay like this, or if I can maintain it forever. Since switching to strictly every other day, or less, dosing, I have stopped for 4 days, the first 2 days are worse than the last 2, but I wouldn't call it true WD. About 2 months ago, when I was "mostly" using every other day, I regularly stopped for 4-7 days. Sometimes I would get sick, sometimes I wouldn't.

But to answer you question more directly, no I can't use every other day forever without getting sick. If I did that for 2 weeks and then stopped I would go into WD. I have to take at least a 3 day break every week, and a longer one every month.

Even, coming off a 3-4 day break, if I use HEAVILY for ONE day, I will feel terrible afterwards, I wouldn't call it sick. But it is a STRUGGLE to not redose.

But I do get depressed, but I was depressed before I started doing opiates, and I was depressed after being sobre for 18 months. My opiate use definitely makes the depression worse. I am more depressed the day after using, than I am 5 days after using, obviously. But I can handle a day here a day there, I can't handle it day in day out.

The only thing stopping you from taking kratom twice a week, and only twice a week, is you. Can you dose kratom twice a week with no negative effects? NO. Can you dose kratom twice a week with manageable effects? Maybe, that is for you to find out, and then decide if it is worth it. I would say it is probably not.

The one thing you got going for you, is you are realizing and exploring all this before you hit rock bottom.

edit: I don't take opiates for fun anymore, it's not fun, you need to be aware of that.
Also, I have always been the poster child for "getting clean is easy, staying clean is hard", WDs never scared me, I never used WD as a reason to not quit, I used it as a reason to not quit TODAY. But never as a reason for continuing to use habitually. I use my depression as the excuse for that.

Let's put it this way, I don't want to chip. I want to quit. I can't.

 

[itsok]

I think that the problem of my being a long term addict is that I learn from my mistakes. At one point, when I was at rock bottom, I was able to stop for several months. Once I start getting my shit together, I have been learning to use occasionally. Now, this is just my opinion, but I think that if using is the highlight of your life and you have to plan your life around using, then it may be a slippery slope back to addiction. However, if you are engaged in other activities that you love and are wanting to stop being an addict, then one can technically be in transition and successfully chip for a certain time.

In the long run, imo and ime and with the others around me, people usually end up stopping or fall back into daily use, but the chipping is the transition between one of those 2 outcomes.

 

[Benway189]

Personally; I have found that if opiates are your drug of choice......NO, chipping is not an option. At least I've never been able to do that. I went through a withdrawl that lasted 90 days (pure hell) after a 3 year heroin stint........Was almost feeling better after 90 days and was like 'well, i can use one last time".......NOPE, it went straight back to another insane run and thousands of dollars again. Now, if opiates aren't you're drug of choice, then maybe it's possible to use recreationally.........like I can drink socially, or take a benzo, or mushrooms, or smoke or joint and not care about doing it ever again. I guess it all depends on the person.

 

[Cyc]

Those who have an aversion to being fucked up, but still like to get fucked up can often use sporadically, depending on their variable mental state.

If being high or not in control sometimes makes you uncomfortable, I'd say you have a shot at regulating your usage.

 

[Jackie Chan]

It's definitely possible for me to use kratom occasionally, but definitely not pills. Whenever I get pills I find myself binging on them until they're all gone. At the beginning of this month I spent $400 on oxys and they were all gone in less than two weeks. Then last weekend spent $100 on percs and finished them before this weekend. Each time I said to myself I'd make them last and not binge on them, but couldn't stick to the plan. Not saying it isn't possible, but for me if I got pills hidden away somewhere it's hard for me to go more than a day not taking any, and I'm someone who's never even had a hardcore addiction to opiates before.

 

[TheLostBoys]

Now, if opiates aren't you're drug of choice, then maybe it's possible to use recreationally.........like I can drink socially, or take a benzo, or mushrooms, or smoke or joint and not care about doing it ever again. I guess it all depends on the person.

This is exactly right........some people dont enjoy opiates like others do & just take it for pain or what ever. If you do enjoy opiates too much, they will hook you like coke or anything else that people fall in love with, just part of the situation people fall in.

 

[brighton]

i think if you have to ask if "chipping" is possible, then you already know the answer.