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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Gabapentinoids The Gaba Shuffle

BK38

BK38

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
16,530
I've been trying to get off Gabapentinoids/Benzos for awhile, but I've found it really difficult over the past 2 years. The lowest I've gotten to is 4mg Diazepam per day.

I have been shuffling between Diazepam, Phenibut hcl and Pregabalin (which I don't have access to very often).

I was doing between 600mg and 900mg of Pregabalin a day for about a week recently and took my last 300mg today with 10mg diazepam. Before the Pregabalin, I'd been doing up to 4g of Phenibut hcl per day, which I definitely want to quit for a bit.

I have also started taking 12.5mg Cyamemazine and 2mg Lormetazepam to sleep and reduce anxiety.

Although I know all of these Gabapentinoids (excepting the cyamemazine, which is not a gaba drug) don't exactly line-up receptor-wise; there is obvious cross-tolerance.

With that said, I feel like the Pregabalin has massively helped me to get off the Phenibut hcl. I'm now seeing if I can use the Diazepam to taper off, without too much in the way of WDs.

Wish me luck! Any input would be most appreciated

♥
 
Last edited:
Hey man. I'm hoping I can give you some decent advice here. You're right that there is nothing like complete cross-tolerance between these substances. There is definitely some overlap as you no doubt have encountered in your subjective experience.

The biggest thing here that will give you a little bit of clarity would be to separate the Gabapentinoids from the Benzodiazepines.

Gabapentinoids, in simple terms, exist on a continuum. Phenibut is on the lower end, followed by Gabapentin (Neurontin) and then Pregabalin (Lyrica). Some include Baclofen on this continuum, though my personal experience and what I've both read and heard from others has led me to exclude it from our list here.

Gabapentin is ~1/6th the potency of Pregabalin meaning 600mg Gabapentin = 100mg Pregabalin. This is provided your Gabapentin dosages are not very high, as higher dosages become more complicated convert due to Gabapentin's different pharmacokinetics. At any rate, it absolutely tracks that Pregabalin would allow you to stop taking Phenibut as Pregabalin is for the most part, just a stronger version of the former. If you were looking to stop taking Gabapentinoids completely, I feel the ideal situation would be to reduce your Pregabalin dosage to something relatively low, like 100mg-200mg Pregabalin per day, then switching to Gabapentin and continuing to taper that one phase at a time.

Once you are able to get your Gabapentin dosage to a low of perhaps 300mg x3 (900mg) per day, I would camp out there for a short while and see how you're feeling. When you're taking on tapers like this, don't ever be afraid to hold in place. Holding in place can often be the key to not sliding backward. Then you can reduce the Gabapentin by 100mg at a time, maybe every 3 days until you're at 100mg. We can then address where you're at when you get there.

I would just keep the Benzodiazepine dosage wherever it is right now and tackle one thing at a time. This makes the whole process less confusing and allows us a better chance for success. How does this sound to start? I'd be happy to help you out if you need it.
 
Keif' Richards said:
Hey man. I'm hoping I can give you some decent advice here. You're right that there is nothing like complete cross-tolerance between these substances. There is definitely some overlap as you no doubt have encountered in your subjective experience.

The biggest thing here that will give you a little bit of clarity would be to separate the Gabapentinoids from the Benzodiazepines.

Gabapentinoids, in simple terms, exist on a continuum. Phenibut is on the lower end, followed by Gabapentin (Neurontin) and then Pregabalin (Lyrica). Some include Baclofen on this continuum, though my personal experience and what I've both read and heard from others has led me to exclude it from our list here.

Gabapentin is ~1/6th the potency of Pregabalin meaning 600mg Gabapentin = 100mg Pregabalin. This is provided your Gabapentin dosages are not very high, as higher dosages become more complicated convert due to Gabapentin's different pharmacokinetics. At any rate, it absolutely tracks that Pregabalin would allow you to stop taking Phenibut as Pregabalin is for the most part, just a stronger version of the former. If you were looking to stop taking Gabapentinoids completely, I feel the ideal situation would be to reduce your Pregabalin dosage to something relatively low, like 100mg-200mg Pregabalin per day, then switching to Gabapentin and continuing to taper that one phase at a time.

Once you are able to get your Gabapentin dosage to a low of perhaps 300mg x3 (900mg) per day, I would camp out there for a short while and see how you're feeling. When you're taking on tapers like this, don't ever be afraid to hold in place. Holding in place can often be the key to not sliding backward. Then you can reduce the Gabapentin by 100mg at a time, maybe every 3 days until you're at 100mg. We can then address where you're at when you get there.

I would just keep the Benzodiazepine dosage wherever it is right now and tackle one thing at a time. This makes the whole process less confusing and allows us a better chance for success. How does this sound to start? I'd be happy to help you out if you need it.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the post. I'm afraid all I have access to is more Phenibut and a bit of Diazepam/Lormetazepam. No Pregabalin or Gabapentin.

I basically went on a one week 600-900mg a day Pregabalin habit, completely stopping the Phenibut hcl.

I think I understand the distinction between Gabapentinoids and Benzodiazepines a bit better.

I'm afraid I will have to rough it out though. Worst comes to worst I'll try low dose Phen, taper, and try and leave the benzos where they are.

I thought Pregabalin was a myrical drug and had me completely off Phenibut and I understand better why. I hope I'll be alright with some Benzos in me - I'll try that, at least to start.

Thanks for the info
 
Hey @BK38 ,

That does sound a bit messy like with the switching between them all.

I'd try and leave the phenibut alone if you can in this case. Mainly due to the half life. Could you maybe purchase some pregabalin? It's generally fairly easy to find and probably the best option in this case.

If you can keep to diazepam and pregabalin that would make things simpler. Get on a dosage that you're comfortable. I'd drop the benzos first if you can taper it down and stop. Once you've got that done then start on the Pregabalin. Dropping 50mg a week should be pretty manageable. You could do it the other way but then you're on benzo's for longer which might make things harder.

If you're just dropping the phenibut/pregab/gabapentin completely then diazepam definitely will help. I'd definitely suggest getting some propranolol in too if you can.

It sounds a bit complicated due to the switching drugs.

I'm happy to discuss if you think I can help, PM me.

Good luck with it all,

BB
 
BadBoy377 said:
Hey @BK38 ,

That does sound a bit messy like with the switching between them all.

I'd try and leave the phenibut alone if you can in this case. Mainly due to the half life. Could you maybe purchase some pregabalin? It's generally fairly easy to find and probably the best option in this case.

If you can keep to diazepam and pregabalin that would make things simpler. Get on a dosage that you're comfortable. I'd drop the benzos first if you can taper it down and stop. Once you've got that done then start on the Pregabalin. Dropping 50mg a week should be pretty manageable. You could do it the other way but then you're on benzo's for longer which might make things harder.

If you're just dropping the phenibut/pregab/gabapentin completely then diazepam definitely will help. I'd definitely suggest getting some propranolol in too if you can.

It sounds a bit complicated due to the switching drugs.

I'm happy to discuss if you think I can help, PM me.

Good luck with it all,

BB
Click to expand...
I've been alright so far mate. Haven't stuck my hand in the phenibut jar or had any Gabapentinoids for a bit over a week and haven't been taking loads of benzos either. Been cutting down from 10mg diazepam per day to 0mg, but just going down 2mg at a time. I'm at 6mg for today.

I think the main thing I'll have to be weary about is taking a bunch of phen and other substances for my upcoming bday.

Anyhow, I appreciate the words of support.
 
Happy Birthday when it comes, mate.

Yeah, we all need a little discipline sometimes.

BB
 
I love the thread title -- a familiar feeling.

I know someone who got yanked off of 3 75 mg lyrica's and 4 mgs xanax a day --- than given something that lowers the seizure threshhold. Person was like 70 and experienced what was arguably a pretty bad seizure.

Advice is tough here, you know where you are -- Wish ya luck and a happy birthday. Don't party too hard but don't make yourself miserable that day (Would be my .02 cent opinion).

Pretty sure you onto this one but clonodine/benadryl will help your blood pressure/heart rate during this experience.

I have personally never played with phenibut but again subjective --- I found lyrica more harmful to me than benzo's. I think personal reaction though? Felt like a few shots of whiskey and a ritalin or something; mentally was a strange place

Arguably since the "oid" got added to gabepentin they could be more risky to possess and acquire as well. Is it possible it would be wiser to use the phenibut or benzos to taper off the gabapentanoids - ok you only got access to phenibut and benzo.... use the phenibut to taper off the benzo? 5 mgs a day is pretty low

Also when you get out of the physical parts of it alcohol tends to help PAWS -- not actual withdrawl -- and the shit is not good for you of course.. Just my experience. GHB/GBL w/e also works but if I recall both hammer the gabba receptor pretty hard.

I doubt I told you anything you didnt know but I gave it a shot!
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
I love the thread title -- a familiar feeling.

I know someone who got yanked off of 3 75 mg lyrica's and 4 mgs xanax a day --- than given something that lowers the seizure threshhold. Person was like 70 and experienced what was arguably a pretty bad seizure.

Advice is tough here, you know where you are -- Wish ya luck and a happy birthday. Don't party too hard but don't make yourself miserable that day (Would be my .02 cent opinion).

Pretty sure you onto this one but clonodine/benadryl will help your blood pressure/heart rate during this experience.

I have personally never played with phenibut but again subjective --- I found lyrica more harmful to me than benzo's. I think personal reaction though? Felt like a few shots of whiskey and a ritalin or something; mentally was a strange place

Arguably since the "oid" got added to gabepentin they could be more risky to possess and acquire as well. Is it possible it would be wiser to use the phenibut or benzos to taper off the gabapentanoids - ok you only got access to phenibut and benzo.... use the phenibut to taper off the benzo? 5 mgs a day is pretty low

Also when you get out of the physical parts of it alcohol tends to help PAWS -- not actual withdrawl -- and the shit is not good for you of course.. Just my experience. GHB/GBL w/e also works but if I recall both hammer the gabba receptor pretty hard.

I doubt I told you anything you didnt know but I gave it a shot!
Click to expand...
Yes, it can be very dangerous to jump off benzos and gabapentanoids too quickly. Those were all good tips.

Basically, I was using small amounts of bnz a couple times a week (generally 10mg diazepam) and the rest of the week I was doing between 2 and 4 grams of Phenibut hcl a day (which is definitely quite a lot). A friend gave me a decent amount of Pregabalin and I was able to use for a week straight at 600-900mg (which is also quite a lot) and completely stopped the Phenibut hcl cold turkey and didnt use any bnz. I felt totally fine for that week and though Phenibut and Pregabalin don't line up exactly, they are both gabapentanoids.

After that stash ran out 9 days ago, I switched to 10mg diazepam a day for about 6 days. I've now gone down 2mg a day for the past 2 days and am now at 6mg diazepam per day (I'm only scripted a pathetic 4mg a day, but had some extra).

I really would like to get my bnz use to zero. I think I can do it. I have PTSD and I definitely need to have some diazepam around though, just in case.

I've mostly been ok. A little bit of extra anxiety, but nothing a hash spliff, a hot shower and a cuddle with my dog doesn't mostly cure.

I found I liked Pregabalin a little toooooo much. It synergized great with weed/hash/booze and would give me these crazy CEVs. Definitely a bizarre drug. Tolerance builds stupidly fast with Pregabalin. I should've saved some for a rainy day but alas, I was weak. C'est la vie.

As far as my bday goes, I don't want to destroy the progress I've made. I'm toying with the idea of a little snow, but again, I might also need to be disciplined. I'm going to be 36 and feel like maybe I should try and be sober on my bday for a change (with the exception of the Kratom maintenance and hash...maybe some bubbles and snow but...I need to be a little responsible methinks).

Thanks for your 2c.

:)
 
I do remember tolerance being nuts. Take lyrica like 2 days in a row you need to up your dose. Ppl be eating those big arse neurontin like tic tacs "How many you take" 15 -- sounds high but I aint judging lol
It is a bizarre drug, people seem to love it or it just kinda weirds em out -- I fall in the latter (Probably luckily knowing me)

I think you can get it down to zero if you want/need to. Having PTSD I would think you prolly qualify for a benzo script if you so wished. (But of course I dont qualify to make that decision lol) I hear you on the birthday too

Coincidence, my 36th birthday actually was the last time I did coke as someone showed up with it -- wait may have been 35 haha w/e. It was free and put in front of me im gunna (hypothetically lol) take it everytime.

I am sure you are aware that any cns stimulant will mess with your w/d's and make em a little worse. I was gunna say "But its just one day" than realized that belongs in the "Classic last lines" thread or w/e
 
BadBoy377 said:
Hey @BK38 ,

That does sound a bit messy like with the switching between them all.

I'd try and leave the phenibut alone if you can in this case. Mainly due to the half life. Could you maybe purchase some pregabalin? It's generally fairly easy to find and probably the best option in this case.

If you can keep to diazepam and pregabalin that would make things simpler. Get on a dosage that you're comfortable. I'd drop the benzos first if you can taper it down and stop. Once you've got that done then start on the Pregabalin. Dropping 50mg a week should be pretty manageable. You could do it the other way but then you're on benzo's for longer which might make things harder.

If you're just dropping the phenibut/pregab/gabapentin completely then diazepam definitely will help. I'd definitely suggest getting some propranolol in too if you can.

It sounds a bit complicated due to the switching drugs.

I'm happy to discuss if you think I can help, PM me.

Good luck with it all,

BB
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree that knocking the benzos out first is the best idea
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
I think you can get it down to zero if you want/need to. Having PTSD I would think you prolly qualify for a benzo script if you so wished. (But of course I dont qualify to make that decision lol) I hear you on the birthday too

I am sure you are aware that any cns stimulant will mess with your w/d's and make em a little worse. I was gunna say "But its just one day" than realized that belongs in the "Classic last lines" thread or w/e
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am scripted my bnz for the PTSD. At one point it was to the tune of 50mg diazepam a day, which is ridiculous... Now I'm at 4mg prescribed per day, which is a little too low imo.

The Pregabalin and Phenibut hcl is not scripted.

You're right about the coke though. I'd definitely pay a price for it in terms of my neurochemical balance. Sigh... decisions, decisions.
 
^That is the way I woud go as well. Just because gabapentinoids tend to alter my consciousness more and are slightly more illegal -- since they tacked the oids onto the damn end at least
 
Clonidine would help manage symptoms during the tapering of Gabapentin, Lyrica, and Diazepam.
 
BK38 said:
Yeah, I am scripted my bnz for the PTSD. At one point it was to the tune of 50mg diazepam a day, which is ridiculous... Now I'm at 4mg prescribed per day, which is a little too low imo.

The Pregabalin and Phenibut hcl is not scripted.

You're right about the coke though. I'd definitely pay a price for it in terms of my neurochemical balance. Sigh... decisions, decisions
Click to expand...

I get my benzos prescribed for PTSD to as well as anxiety and panic attacks. I get 3mg of bromazepam for panic attacks and 0.5mg of clonaz a day for the PTSD and general anxiety. The bromazepam is pretty good feels like a faster acting version of Valium kinda.

I also get zopiclone for insomnia. It's a z drug but its kinda the same as a benzo. Harder to actually get addicted to though imo
 
I avoided the PTSD label for 2a reasons and went hard on insomnia!

There are definitely levels to PTSD and IF I have any ( I dont ) it is very low level and passes for insomnia.
 
paranoid android said:
I get my benzos prescribed for PTSD to as well as anxiety and panic attacks. I get 3mg of bromazepam for panic attacks and 0.5mg of clonaz a day for the PTSD and general anxiety. The bromazepam is pretty good feels like a faster acting version of Valium kinda.

I also get zopiclone for insomnia. It's a z drug but its kinda the same as a benzo. Harder to actually get addicted to though imo
Click to expand...
Medical science reports :

** Lunesta (Eszopiclone) 3mg equals Valium 10mg in terms of benzodiazepine receptor binding and sedative potency.

** Ambien (Zolpidem) 10mg equals Valium 5mg in terms of benzodiazepines receptor binding and sedative potency.

Ambien has a slightly quicker onset of action than Lunesta. Lunesta has a longer half-life duration.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zolpidem to diazepam equivalence in hypnotic withdrawal​



  • regular use of benzodiazepine hypnotics (e.g. temazepam, nitrazepam) rapidly leads to tolerance - patients may report continued efficacy with use of benzodiazepine hypnotics but probably this is because of the rebound insomnia that occurs if the hynotic is stopped (1)

  • adverse effects associated with the use of benzodiazepine hypnotics (to which the elderly are most vulnerable) include confusion, oversedation, increased risks of falls and consequent fractures (1)

  • withdrawal from a benzodiazepine hypnotic must be agreed between the clinician and the patient - patients should never be forced or threatened (1)

  • switching benzodiazepines may be advantageous for a variety of reasons, e.g. to a drug with a longer half-life prior to discontinuation or in the event of non-availability of a specific benzodiazepine (2)
    • with relatively short-acting benzodiazepines such as alprazolam and lorazepam, it is not possible to achieve a smooth decline in blood and tissue concentrations during benzodiazepine withdrawal
      • these drugs are eliminated fairly rapidly with the result that concentrations fluctuate with peaks and troughs between each dose
      • it is necessary to take the tablets several times a day and many people experience a "mini-withdrawal", sometimes a craving, between each dose
      • for people withdrawing from these potent, short-acting drugs it has been advised that they switch to an equivalent dose of a benzodiazepine with a long half-life such as diazepam
        • diazepam is available as 2mg tablets which could be halved to give 1mg doses to allow the dose to be reduced in stages of 1mg every 1 -4 weeks or more
        • the manufacturer has no safety or efficacy data to support the use of halved diazepam 2mg tablets, therefore this would be an off-licence use of the product
    • extra precautions apply in patients with hepatic dysfunction as diazepam and other longer-acting drugs may accumulate to toxic levels
      • switching to diazepam may not be appropriate in this group of patients
      • concomitant renal or hepatic impairment should be taken into consideration when prescribing all benzodiazepines
Approximate equivalence to oral diazepam (3)

  • approximate equivalence is useful when switching a benzodiazepine to diazepam, or when switching one benzodiazepine to another, using diazepam as an intermediate step. Doses should be tapered according to individual response
  • alprazolam
    • aprazolam 250 micrograms is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • alprazolam is used short-term for severe anxiety
      • daily dose is usually given in 2 or 3 divided doses
  • chlordiazepoxide
    • chlordiazepoxide 12.5mg is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • chlordiazepoxide is used short-term for anxiety, muscle spasm and alcohol withdrawal
      • daily dose is usually given in 3 or 4 divided doses
  • clobazam
    • clobazam 10mg is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • clobazam is used short-term for severe anxiety and as adjunctive therapy in psychosis, schizophrenia and epilepsy
      • daily dose can be given in divided doses or as a single dose at night
      • doses higher than 30mg should be given in divided doses
  • clonazepam
    • clonazepam 250 micrograms is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • clonazepam is used for the treatment of epilepsy
      • dose may be given as a single daily dose at night or in 3 or 4 divided doses
  • flurazepam
    • flurazepam 7.5mg to 15mg, is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • flurazepam is used short-term for the treatment of insomnia
      • dose is taken at bedtime
  • loprazolam
    • loprazolam 500 micrograms to 1mg, is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • loprazolam is used short-term for the treatment of insomnia
      • dose is taken at bedtime
  • lorazepam
    • lorazepam 500 micrograms is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • lorazepam is used short-term for severe anxiety, associated insomnia, and as a pre-medication
      • dose is taken in divided doses (for anxiety) or at night (for insomnia)
      • when used as a pre-medication before dental or general surgery the dose is taken the night before the operation and a second dose one to two hours before the procedure
  • lormetazepam
    • lormetazepam 500 micrograms to 1mg, is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • lormetazepam is used short-term for the treatment of insomnia
      • dose is taken at bedtime
  • nitrazepam
    • nitrazepam 5mg is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • nitrazepam is used short-term for the treatment of insomnia
      • dose is taken at bedtime
  • oxazepam
    • oxazepam 10mg is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • oxazepam is used short-term for severe anxiety and associated insomnia
      • dose is taken in three or four divided doses (for anxiety) or at bedtime (for insomnia)
  • temazepam
    • temazepam 10mg is approximately equivalent to diazepam 5mg
    • temazepam is used short-term for the treatment of insomnia, and as pre-medication before minor surgical and investigative procedures
      • dose is taken at bedtime (for insomnia), or half to one hour before the procedure (as pre-medication)
Inter-patient variability and differing half-lives mean the figures can never be exact and should be interpreted using clinical and pharmaceutical knowledge:

  • example withdrawal schedule for patient on nitrazepam 10mg nocte (1)
    • week 1 - nitrazepam 5mg, diazepam 5mg
    • week 2 - stop nitrazepam, diazepam 10mg
    • week 4 - diazepam 9mg
    • week 6- diazepam 8mg
    • continue reducing dose of diazepam by 1mg every fortnight - tapering of dose may be slower if necessary
  • example withdrawal schedule for patient on temazepam 20mg nocte (1)
    • week 1 - temazepam 10mg, diazepam 5mg
    • week 2 - stop temazepam, diazepam 10mg
    • week 4 - diazepam 9mg
    • week 6 - diazepam 8mg
    • continue reducing dose of diazepam by 1mg every fortnight - tapering of dose may be slower if necessary
Hepatic and renal impairment

  • concomitant renal or hepatic impairment should be taken into consideration when prescribing benzodiazepines. Extra precautions apply in patients with hepatic dysfunction as diazepam and other longer-acting benzodiazepines may accumulate to toxic levels. For example, switching to diazepam may not be appropriate in this group of patients
  • in patients with renal impairment, cerebral sensitivity to benzodiazepines is increased, so lower doses may be needed.
  • refer to the individual benzodiazepine’s Summary of Product Characterstics (SPC) for dosing guidance when administering to patients with renal or hepatic impairment
Notes (4) :

  • approximate Z-drugs equivalent to 5mg diazepam
    • zaleplon 10mg
    • zopiclone 7.5mg
    • zolpidem 10mg
Reference:

  1. Pule (2004), 64 (10), 50-3.
  2. NHS Specialist Pharmacy Service (2021).Equivalent doses of oral benzodiazepines
  3. NHS Specialist Pharmacy Service (July 2025). Oral benzodiazepines and choosing equivalent doses
  4. RCGP (2007). Drug misuse and dependence: UK guidelines on clinical management

Benzodiazepines Conversion Calculator :
www.omnicalculator.com

Benzodiazepine Conversion Calculator

Our benzodiazepine conversion calculator allows you to compute the equivalent doses of drugs when switching from one to another.
www.omnicalculator.com www.omnicalculator.com
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
z drugs or the creative name "non-benzodiazapines"

The metallic taste they leave in your mouth (for most ppl?) is too much for me
Click to expand...

Ive been taking zopiclone for over 20 years now (not everyday) and now i actually dont mind the taste. It shows that the zopiclone is working lol
 
Them Witches said:
clobazam
Click to expand...

Why clobazam for psychosis? Does it have effects that other benzos dont? I had psychosis once so if i could get a benzo thats more effective against psychosis then what i have then ill try it. Clobazam is available n Canada so i may mention it to my shrink
 
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