The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[Roger&Me]

i think that rioting is unwise and an ineffective way for them to get their grievances considered. if they want to enact positive change they should do it through peaceful, nonviolent protest and through the legal system and other legitimate channels. that is what the family of the victim and other community leaders actually called for.

that being said, the decision of the grand jury was totally sound from a legal standpoint. the courts are not there to take sides on social issues, but to make legal decisions according to very specific guidelines and precedents, which is exactly what happened in this case.

 

[legalizeall]

i think that rioting is unwise and an ineffective way for them to get their grievances considered. if they want to enact positive change they should do it through peaceful, nonviolent protest and through the legal system and other legitimate channels. that is what the family of the victim and other community leaders actually called for.

that being said, the decision of the grand jury was totally sound from a legal standpoint. the courts are not there to take sides on social issues, but to make legal decisions according to very specific guidelines and precedents, which is exactly what happened in this case.

oh now your just being crazy with that kind of logic. and racist. (sarcasm)

 

[Roger&Me]

lol

but seriously i can't help but think that they squandered an opportunity to get a real dialogue started about an important issue. if they had organized a peaceful sit-in or something like that, instead of rioting, i think it could have led to positive change for predominantly black communities and their relationship with law enforcement.

 

[spacejunk]

Peaceful sit-ins are easy to ignore.
The battleground that now presents itself makes global headlines.
Make of that what you will.
Not that I would say the means justifies the ends in terms of destruction to property.

Let me just point out that;
a) this is not the first time this has happened
b) the perception amongst the people angered by this is that the injustice is ingrained and systemic.

What sort of dialogue can be gained from this?

I mean, a young man is killed by police - then a grand jury adjudicates that the police that killed him need not even be charged. Correct?
What recourse does any community have to open up a dialogue in such an instance?

The whole incident (and the legal response to it) reeks of 'injustice' in more ways than one.
Sadly, local talkfests and sit-ins don't solve generations of injustice.
Systemic and culturally ingrained social problems (of which Ferguson Missouri is the latest violent hot-spot) don't solve themselves by people taking sides along ethnic lines.
I'm sorry if it offends you, nutskin, to have a "foreigner" point this out. That's too bad.

 

[legalizeall]

I mean, a young man is killed by police - then a grand jury adjudicates that the police that killed him need not even be charged. Correct?

Ya thats how justice works. With evidence and witness testimony and things. Its blind. It doesnt give a fuck what the color of skin is.

Your oversimplification is all your standing on. Bottom line, the cop acted accordingly out of fear for his life which the evidence showed. Thats it. Wouldn't be justice if they wasted the tax payer money on a trial simply cause this cop killed someone. Wouldn't be justice if you got indicted and charged for self defense.

You dont think I want cops held accountable? Nothing would make me happier. But this case isnt one for that. I dont know why that is so hard to accept. What more do you want? Wrong case to try and make some point or whatever the fuck they were doing.

There are countless other cases where cops killed unarmed people posing no threat to them on camera. People that were more innocent then this thug. Did i mention on camera. People being shot while handcuffed. On camera. Why this one? This kid was a punk also. He was no upstanding member of society.

All this did was make the racial divide stronger, took away some of the seriousness of police brutality, and cemented stereotypes. Also from other posts ive seen here from certain people this is only about race and nothing more. If this was a white kid who got shot by a black cop i think some here would have completely different views, if not praise it as a type of retribution.

Sorry but rioting is never a good way to bring new legislation to the table either. Not many people are going to rally behind people who loot their own community.

 

[spacejunk]

Odd, there were (non segregated) demonstrations across the US last night.
What do you think accounts for that?

 

[Droppersneck]

i think that rioting is unwise and an ineffective way for them to get their grievances considered. if they want to enact positive change they should do it through peaceful, nonviolent protest and through the legal system and other legitimate channels. that is what the family of the victim and other community leaders actually called for.

that being said, the decision of the grand jury was totally sound from a legal standpoint. the courts are not there to take sides on social issues, but to make legal decisions according to very specific guidelines and precedents, which is exactly what happened in this case.

Oh wow Rog this statement is racist and completely false. In sensitive cases like these the jury should take the externalites into consideration in order to dish out social justice for crimes against said parties in the past.

 

[spacejunk]

^ the complacent sarcasm card has already been played on that droppers.

And it goes without saying that "social justice" is not something that strictly takes place in the courts.

 

[legalizeall]

Odd, there were (non segregated) demonstrations across the US last night.
What do you think accounts for that?

Great. Doesnt relate to what i said

 

[legalizeall]

"Race relations".
When people think "race relations" need improving, it demonstrates how broken your social justice system is.
Some corporate businesses get trashed. That's a shame...

Have you guys ever looked into what the US military (and allies) have done to the homes, vital infrastructure (electricity, water, sewage, roads etc) ancient heritage, innocent civilians in countries such as Iraq?
If not, I suggest you STFU.

Now, in going to kick back and watch this injustice play itself out.

I would suggest you shut the fuck up about what you think goes on here and how things are handled. Worry about your own backyard. Its obvious you know little and are reaching. Your so clueless its funny. Mostly just looks like attempts to get people into confrontations with you.

 

[spacejunk]

Confrontation?
Never.

 

[nuttynutskin]

[let's stop the flame war right here. -- Norf]

 

[LuGoJ]

It's a shame the police dug their feet with opening an investigation when the shooting happened. Had they done it immediately with full transparency, i'm willing to bet much of this would have turned out differently. Both sides have been extremely stupid in their handling of this and have done things to needlessly fan the flames.

 

[legalizeall]

You can watch the live action on ustream

 

[spacejunk]

You really can't handle people agreeing about things that you disagree with, can you?

Certain people are trolling this subforum, and I'm not the only one to say it.

Now, before we get bogged down in another of your discussions of how people conduct themselves on the board, can we discuss the topic?

I think the "oversimplification" of this issue is not in the "cop kills unarmed kid, gets away scot-free" as much as it is a massive revelation of the militarisation of police forces with combat equipment making its way into the hands of poorly trained local law enforcement agencies.
Have you seen those pictures (in the aftermath of the shooting) of unarmed civilians with their arms in the air - and cops pointing what appear to be automatic weapons at them?

Very poor gun handling technique - both dangerous and scary.
Now, you realise that much of this Robocop military grade weaponry (and armoured tanks, the whole lot) is used against non-violent offenders, right?
Especially - get this - no-knock drug raids!

So, there are plenty of issues worth discussing in this story.
Keep up your tawdry "my country right or wrong" stance if it makes you feel better - but this is a far more revealing series of incidents than an issue of "race relations".
To attempt to brush this off as "racial trouble" is misleading and missing much of the point.

So, take offence at "foreigners" discussing politics in your country; it's a good distraction from the dystopian path the US of A seems to be going down (now the police are acting like amateur commandos on city streets - what next?) with seemingly little public resistance.
Except...in Ferguson.

This is why I'm encouraged by people taking to the streets.
Better to die on ones feet that live on one's knees.

 

[legalizeall]

whatever you got to do man. Im not going to get into with you as much as you feed off that. I will say that saying you take pleasure in watching someones country burn is far from discussing politics. Thats just being a dick for no reason and is unrelated to anything in your babbling posts here. I dont care what you agree or disagree with. This back and forth goes nowhere and its not civil or mature discussions. You twist and turn things around and it ends up with your classic posting style; insult, topic, insult, insult. Ive said my piece on this. We disagree on it, get over it. I would appreciate too it if you just said your opinion and not put words in my mouth though. Inaccurate but like i said whatever you got to do. HAve a great day. I wish you well. Ill pray for you.

 

[LuGoJ]

You really can't handle people agreeing about things that you disagree with, can you?

Certain people are trolling this subforum, and I'm not the only one to say it.

Now, before we get bogged down in another of your discussions of how people conduct themselves on the board, can we discuss the topic?

I think the "oversimplification" of this issue is not in the "cop kills unarmed kid, gets away scot-free" as much as it is a massive revelation of the militarisation of police forces with combat equipment making its way into the hands of poorly trained local law enforcement agencies.
Have you seen those pictures (in the aftermath of the shooting) of unarmed civilians with their arms in the air - and cops pointing what appear to be automatic weapons at them?

Very poor gun handling technique - both dangerous and scary.
Now, you realise that much of this Robocop military grade weaponry (and armoured tanks, the whole lot) is used against non-violent offenders, right?
Especially - get this - no-knock drug raids!

So, there are plenty of issues worth discussing in this story.
Keep up your tawdry "my country right or wrong" stance if it makes you feel better - but this is a far more revealing series of incidents than an issue of "race relations".
To attempt to brush this off as "racial trouble" is misleading and missing much of the point.

So, take offence at "foreigners" discussing politics in your country; it's a good distraction from the dystopian path the US of A seems to be going down (now the police are acting like amateur commandos on city streets - what next?) with seemingly little public resistance.
Except...in Ferguson.

This is why I'm encouraged by people taking to the streets.
Better to die on ones feet that live on one's knees.

Bingo

What's so upsetting about this all is that once again, it's getting turned into a blue/red sporting event. Some of the very same people that cry bloody murder over the militarization of police in other threads are all of a sudden for it.

My fellow citizens, keep on letting your political affiliation cloud and skew your judgement of situations, keep on wasting your time fighting red vs blue while the people at the top takeover. Because let me tell you, when they do finally come for your guns, if there is ever a situation where we do have to fight our own government, it's going to take every single one of us to stop it, white/black/liberal/conservative and everything in between.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Well he was pretty much bit pattern's lap dog so what do you expect? I think both of their mental deficiencies sort of drew them together.

And bit pattern got his PhD in aussie internet badassery under the tutelage of beamers. The legacy continues unbroken.

Legalizeall, I actually think you've made some good points. Just don't take the bait, dig?

I for one have no patience with people from other countries (Canadians, Aussies, and Japanese are the worst offenders, IME) gloating to my face about how much better it is to live in their country than mine (USA). Because honestly, I don't care. This is home for me, in all its ugly glory, and I've never claimed to anyone that the place is perfect. In fact, I'm rather humbly candid about my home country's shortcomings. I wish people like this would save their smug "How much nicer it is co be XXX-ian than American" for Americans who are more ethnocentric and in your face about it.

The practical questions all americans really need to be asking here:
1. What would it take for black Americans to feel that they share equally both the ups and the downs that being American offers?
2. What would it take to restore the lost trust between America's police and its non-rich citizens?

Because until we see some practical solutions to both of these questions tabled and implemented, the pointless violence and destruction will continue.

 

[socko]

And bit pattern got his PhD in aussie internet badassery under the tutelage of beamers. The legacy continues unbroken.

Legalizeall, I actually think you've made some good points. Just don't take the bait, dig?

...

The practical questions all americans really need to be asking here:
1. What would it take for black Americans to feel that they share equally both the ups and the downs that being American offers?
2. What would it take to restore the lost trust between America's police and its non-rich citizens?

Because until we see some practical solutions to both of these questions tabled and implemented, the pointless violence and destruction will continue.

What would it take for black Americans to share equally in the pie....?
That's something anybody born into blue collar circumstances should be able to relate to some degree except race issues make it more difficult, right? Start by finding ways to restore opportunities for upward mobility. According to recent articles in the Wall Street Journal, currently around 10% of children born into poverty in america ever make it out into the middle or upper castes. That's a hard class barrier to break making USA more like India than the "Land of Opportunity" that it once was as recently as during the Post WWII economic boom. Back then, all you needed was the willingness to work hard. Now, even a college degree isn't a ticket to prosperity (but affordable access to higher education helps).
Restoring trust could start with de-militarizing the police, ending the drug war, and directing resources to fight poverty instead.

I for one have no patience with people from other countries (Canadians, Aussies, and Japanese are the worst offenders, IME) gloating to my face about how much better it is to live in their country than mine (USA).

USA is better in some aspects, and I'm sure those other countries are better in other aspects.... people are rude.

 

[legalizeall]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfzVruvnlZk

Check out the 3:10 mark and listen to what Browns step father says.

Sorry. Hopefully that fixed it. He says "burn this bitch down" a few times get the crowd into it.