The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[alasdairm]

Unbelievable...

i do not think that word means what you think it means...

you can't believe that somebody might have a different opinion to you? you literally can't conceive that simple idea? this explains much.

alasdair

 

[Bardeaux]

Unbelievable when I post a story on welfare disincentive to work because it pays more than minimum wage it isn't indication to lower welfare but rather raise minimum wage.

Indeed. As we covered earlier, the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients are either over 65 or disabled. Why punish those people? Why not instead incentivize work?

You're angry at people who milk the welfare system, yet don't want to ensure that minimum wages are more attractive than welfare? If less than 10% of welfare recipients are able bodied, unemployed and of working age, how many of those will choose the higher wages over welfare as more positions open up in a more sustainable economy? Higher wages mean more purchasing power for the poor, which means more demand for products and services which means more employment to produce these goods and services which means more tax revenue.

Many people on minimum wage are fresh off the boat

How many?

Raw data and statistics, please. I know words are easy, and all

 

[LosBlancos]

How does lowering the minimum wage help? If they move the jobs to China or India or any place with a lower minimum wage they should not be able to sell their products here as far as i am concerned. If enough countries did that then they wouldn't have a market thus they would have to up their wages. Granted Syndicalism developed in these countries would do more for the workers themselves. And yes your right those ungrateful bastards off the boat how dare they have the nerve to ask for a wage they can live on. Why not just make them real slaves again instead of having them pretend they have any freedom at all? Give the unruly ingrates a taste of the lash to make them work faster i say 8)

I never said lower, just to keep it stagnant. Not be able to sell Indian or Chinese products here? Well I hope you enjoy paying 200%-300% more for the exact same goods that are artifically high due to higher wages and unions acting like a bully.

How dare people ask for a wage they can live on? Listen if you have a kid while you have a minimum wage job you might already be straining yourself depending on your money management but many people having 3 or 4 kids with no jobs whatsoever, should their job be forced to pay a wage to sustain 15 children like the women in the video? Where does personal responsibility come into this at all?

 

[LosBlancos]

Indeed. As we covered earlier, the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients are either over 65 or disabled. Why punish those people? Why not instead incentivize work?

Your looking at entitlements like Social Security, 65+ people have paid into the system their whole lives and are probably getting back less than they fed into it. "Disabled" haha you'd be amazed how many still have the capacity to work yet would rather get disability checks. Statistics you love when you feel they benefit your position when I post statistics on race and crime you turn to anecdotes about NYC 200 years ago, and European colonialism of 100s of years ago and completely ignore statistics.

 

[LosBlancos]

 

[LosBlancos]

This one is straight from the Congressional Budget Office.

 

[paranoid android]

I never said lower, just to keep it stagnant. Not be able to sell Indian or Chinese products here? Well I hope you enjoy paying 200%-300% more for the exact same goods that are artifically high due to higher wages and unions acting like a bully.

How dare people ask for a wage they can live on? Listen if you have a kid while you have a minimum wage job you might already be straining yourself depending on your money management but many people having 3 or 4 kids with no jobs whatsoever, should their job be forced to pay a wage to sustain 15 children like the women in the video? Where does personal responsibility come into this at all?

Umm many countries including Canada have a higher average minimum wage then America yet we really end up paying no more in the long run. Especially when you factor in increased purchasing power that the average worker would have due to increased wages. As for India and China they couldn't afford to not sell to the west. Either way outsourcing jobs causes 2 problems. Jobs are lost overseas to cheap labour and it further perpetuates the lower wage system in these countries.

I doubt that 1 mom with 15 kids is gonna cause much more trouble. Lol how often does that happen id like to see numbers on that. Using that one example which id imagine is a very rare one to justify everyone who is poor suffering because of it is rather ridiculous one must admit.

 

[LosBlancos]

Umm many countries including Canada have a higher average minimum wage then America yet we really end up paying no more in the long run. Especially when you factor in increased purchasing power that the average worker would have due to increased wages. As for India and China they couldn't afford to not sell to the west. Either way outsourcing jobs causes 2 problems. Jobs are lost overseas to cheap labour and it further perpetuates the lower wage system in these countries.

I doubt that 1 mom with 15 kids is gonna cause much more trouble. Lol how often does that happen id like to see numbers on that. Using that one example which id imagine is a very rare one to justify everyone who is poor suffering because of it is rather ridiculous one must admit.

Canada is a resource rich country with relatively few people and loads of oil, mineral deposits, and forests to tap into. America does not have this situation and has vastly different demographics. If we sent you guys the poor of our major cities your crime would skyrocket and your social services programs would be bankrupted within a year.

Further perpetuates a lower wage system in these countries? I don't think the Chinese are complaining they are happy to have jobs, they aren't entitled like Americans and Canadians and think everyone should have a large home, flat screen tvs and the newest cars.

 

[ebola?]

Congrats: you've shown the effect of the 2008 economic downturn on rates of unemployment for individuals marginal to the job market; there are a lot of lines you could have slapped over the graph of unemployment rate that would show an apparent correlation. . .

ebola

 

[Bardeaux]

Statistics you love when you feel they benefit your position when I post statistics on race and crime you turn to anecdotes about NYC 200 years ago, and European colonialism of 100s of years ago and completely ignore statistics.

That kind of.... wasn't me.

The colonialism bit was. When asked why Africa is in turmoil, that was my answer. Also, my response didn't involve colonialism hundreds of years ago, but the borders drawn out by European countries 60 years ago. If I were to ignore the statistics I would have said "there is no violence in Africa".

Show me how many immigrants are receiving minimum wage vs American born citizens. Hell, even white American born citizens.

 

[LosBlancos]

Congrats: you've shown the effect of the 2008 economic downturn on rates of unemployment for individuals marginal to the job market; there are a lot of lines you could have slapped over the graph of unemployment rate that would show an apparent correlation. . .

ebola

The correlation remains the same in most cases (I think Australia was the exception but that's neither here nor there) that as minimum wage is increased the unemployment rate goes up. Not only does the unemployment rate go up when the wage is raised but businesses will try to reduce hours as much as possible. Take for instance the overtime law, politicians think it's nice workers get time and half when they work over 40 hours. My previous job had us capped at 40 hours a week unless there was extreme circumstances, I would have preferred to work 50-60 hours at a flat rate but due to legislation I was only able to work 40 hours a week.

You want to focus on this graph? Well focus on the Congressional Budget Office report showing how they predict hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost if they raise minimum wage.

 

[Bardeaux]

These are short term results. How do the numbers look after a year? After 5 years?

With an initial loss of 500k jobs and 900k people being lifted out of poverty, we can't assume that the -500k jobs are going to remain lost forever.

 

[LosBlancos]

That kind of.... wasn't me.

The colonialism bit was. When asked why Africa is in turmoil, that was my answer. Also, my response didn't involve colonialism hundreds of years ago, but the borders drawn out by European countries 60 years ago. If I were to ignore the statistics I would have said "there is no violence in Africa".

Show me how many immigrants are receiving minimum wage vs American born citizens. Hell, even white American born citizens.

The borders of Germany were carved out by other European countries 60 years ago as well and they are the healthiest economy in the world. Hell if you look at the previous chart the borders of Montenegro, Serbia, and Bosnia were carved up only 20 or so years ago and their murder rates are a fraction of Africa's top nations despite having worse economies.

Immigrant statistics are murky, I'm not sure if government even publish that data. This is not considering either that their is likely a slew of undocumented workers here in America right now. While we're on the topic of immigration:

-

• In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.

So in the interests of Americans on these programs shouldn't we curb immigration. It's like having a few children that we can hardly feed, you know when your borrowing trillions from China to pay for welfare, housing, food stamps, ect then taking on even more people more likely than the native population to need welfare programs.

Also, if your a Canadian arguing for open-borders in America and higher welfare just consider how ridiculous that is. You don't have a dog in the fight so to speak. Why don't we send all these immigrants to Canada and you can give them a room in your house and cook meals for them if you care so much? That's to any non-American that has an issue with sealing American borders.

 

[LosBlancos]

These are short term results. How do the numbers look after a year? After 5 years?

With an initial loss of 500k jobs and 900k people being lifted out of poverty, we can't assume that the -500k jobs are going to remain lost forever.

It's all speculation from the CBO, I don't think they extrapolated their projections out beyond more immediate results.

Looking into the future you have to take into account inflation and not raw jobs numbers but percentages in 5 years America might have tens of millions more people as all these undocumented workers are granted amnesty and invite their whole families to come to America as well so raw numbers might go up but percentages of people working would likely be going down.

Even the people in America on minimum-wage have a higher standard of living than the vast majority of the world? Better than being poor in Asia, Africa, South America, many places in Europe, only in some hardcore Socialist European countries is their a higher standard for their poor and many of them are Scandanavian countries with small populations and vast oil reserves.

 

[Bardeaux]

The borders of Germany were carved out by other European countries 60 years ago as well and they are the healthiest economy in the world.

Marshall Plan ring any bells?

Hell if you look at the previous chart the borders of Montenegro, Serbia, and Bosnia were carved up only 20 or so years ago and their murder rates are a fraction of Africa's top nations despite having worse economies.

What happened to the former Yugoslavia after it was divided? Civil war. This is the same thing we're seeing in several African nations, only it's ongoing. Besides, these slavic countries were much more flexible in their border divisions. They weren't arbitrarily drawn up without cultural or social foresight by bureaucrats five thousand miles away.

Even the people in America on minimum-wage have a higher standard of living than the vast majority of the world? Better than being poor in Asia, Africa, South America, many places in Europe

How many of these places have wage regulations in place to ensure high purchasing power and standard of living?

 

[LosBlancos]

Marshall Plan ring any bells?

We give billions to Africa every year and so does Europe.

What happened to the former Yugoslavia after it was divided? Civil war. This is the same thing we're seeing in several African nations, only it's ongoing. Besides, these slavic countries were much more flexible in their border divisions. They weren't arbitrarily drawn up without cultural or social foresight by bureaucrats five thousand miles away.

No, borders were established after the war. There wasn't exactly official borders during the war. That's what war is fought over, more favorable borders. Maybe your memory of the war is a bit cloudy but Bill Clinton supported Al-Qaeda in Bosnia and approved bombing of Belgrade which killed many Serbian civilians.

How many of these places have wage regulations in place to ensure high purchasing power and standard of living?

None, they quite simply would lose almost all of the work coming into their countries. The big businesses would pack up and move manufacturing the other countries. Maybe you can establish a world police to stop this practice. Not everything is about wages though, a recent poll found Colombia to be the happiest country in the world!

 

[Bardeaux]

We give billions to Africa every year and so does Europe.

The US sent about $12 billion across 47 African countries in 2012, which is peanuts. Especially when compared to the Marshal Plan, which gave $160 billion to 16 industrially established countries in order rebuild the already existing industrial capacity that had been destroyed.

No, borders were established after the war. There wasn't exactly official borders during the war. That's what war is fought over, more favorable borders. Maybe your memory of the war is a bit cloudy but Bill Clinton supported Al-Qaeda in Bosnia and approved bombing of Belgrade which killed many Serbian civilians.

Yugoslavia was not a united country during the wars.

None, they quite simply would lose almost all of the work coming into their countries.

They would also be forced to pay their workers a livable income.

Not everything is about wages though, a recent poll found Colombia to be the happiest country in the world!

Have you considered moving? I hear things are quite inexpensive in Colombia. Like people, for instance.

 

[LosBlancos]

The US sent about $12 billion across 47 African countries in 2012, which is peanuts. Especially when compared to the Marshal Plan, which gave $160 billion to 16 industrially established countries in order rebuild the already existing industrial capacity that had been destroyed.

Industrially established or destroyed? Which is it? They were bombed to shreds and saddled with enormous debt, don't try and say it was our money that built up Germany following the War.

Yugoslavia was not a united country during the wars.

Didn't say it was but none of the countries had finite borders during the war. Obviously depending on various battles borders grow and shrink. So your saying that African countries borders were carved up randomly? Why does this matter to you? Don't you believe in open-borders anyways or is that just for Europe and America?

They would also be forced to pay their workers a livable income.

What's a livable income? As far as I know, dead people can't work. So they must be recieving a livable income already.

Have you considered moving? I hear things are quite inexpensive in Colombia. Like people, for instance.

I have, but I live and breath the red, white, and blue. Couldn't bring myself to leave this beautiful land. Maybe if Hillary wins I'll be on a one way flight to Colombia but until then I will stay here.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

Wrong. From Forbes...

Since 2009, the Fair Labor Standards Act has dictated that the federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Some people think that’s too low; others think it’s too high. But it turns out that, in 35 states, it’s a better deal not to work—and instead, to take advantage of federal welfare programs—than to take a minimum-wage job. That’s the takeaway from a new studypublished by Michael Tanner and Charles Hughes of the Cato Institute.
“The current welfare system provides such a high level of benefits that it acts as a disincentive for work,” Tanner and Hughes write in their new paper. “Welfare currently pays more than a minimum-wage job in 35 states, even after accounting for the Earned Income Tax Credit,” which offers extra subsidies to low-income workers who take work. “In 13 states [welfare] pays more than $15 per hour.”
Losing ground in the war on poverty
The welfare system, at its best, is a system that gives people a way to live when they can’t find work for themselves, when they’re down on their luck. At its worst, the welfare system rewards people for not working, and incentivizes people to develop habits that make it harder for them to find work in the future, miring them in permanent poverty.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...ays-more-than-minimum-wage-work-in-35-states/

The actual study admits that working is probably better: "This study does not examine whether it is better to both work and receive welfare; however, theory indicates that would almost certainly be the case at any income level."

But hey, congrats on never being one of the working poor that needs assistance to get by. That's rather nice for you. Even though it leaves a big gaping hole in your knowledge about working & welfare.

 

[LosBlancos]

The actual study admits that working is probably better: "This study does not examine whether it is better to both work and receive welfare; however, theory indicates that would almost certainly be the case at any income level."

But hey, congrats on never being one of the working poor that needs assistance to get by. That's rather nice for you. Even though it leaves a big gaping hole in your knowledge about working & welfare.

So it's better to work? Despite being paid less for working and having less free time? I guess that's something entirely subjective, most rational people would say people shouldn't make more money doing nothing than people working 8 hours a day but I guess Democrats have to buy votes somehow.