The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[paranoid android]

The people looting, here is just one of hundreds of videos I won't bother posting them all. I'm sure alot of the Marxists here have no problem with this looting, my paycheck is looted every week to pay for the food stamps, housing, and health care of probably many of the people looting but it's not enough. Maybe some new Air Jordans were coming out that weekend.

Well god forbid people have access to basic standards of living like health care, welfare, housing and food 8) . Are you telling me that if you found yourself on the unemployment line you wouldn't accept dole checks because you would be "looting" someones pay check of a few bucks? You guys have basically no welfare state in place to help the poor anyway so it's not like it's breaking your bank account. Or are you one of those people who think it will never happen to them? Frankly it's stupid comments like these why the majority of people never take the far right seriously at all. If you where starving $20 says you'd be running to the nearest dole office as quick as you could.

What about the "looting" of your hard earned money to build the roads and bridges you drive on everyday or the buses and subways and basic infrastructure you use everyday to get to work. Are you against that too? Guess you'd better build your own roads then

As for the actual looting i don't agree with it. I am all for economic warfare but this is not the way to do it and not the way to get the local populace on your side as it just looks bad and does little damage to the states economy in the long run.

^ this is you:

it's always somebody else's fault, right?

alasdair

I loled so hard i sprayed Lime soda all over my keyboard you bastard

 

[aroma borealis]

The so-called "lumpen proletariat" will always do stuff like looting if presented with the opportunity. They are an underclass with few job opportunities, poor educations, bad habits like drug dependence and crime, and are pissed off and feeling denied the "stuff" they think everybody else gets so easily. They are hard (but not impossible) to organize politically, being loose cannons.

I agree with Paranoid Android that the main problem is economic inequality not so much race. Race is used by those who really have the power (the corporate class backed up by the military and the police) to pit the rest of us against each other, distracted and fighting over the leftovers from their greed. The media, owned by corporate conglomerates, generally foment racial discord and "consumer" mentality with its insistent false needs and wants. The media may show the police in a bad light at times, as in footage of the Ferguson demonstrations, but their analysis of the issues ignores questions like in whose interest the police really act. Does it matter who the next police chief in Ferguson will be, in any meaningful sense? You know, "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss" as The Who summed it up.

Sometimes I get pissed off and cynical and think the Americans get what they fucking deserve for being so apathetic and distracted by stupid stuff like lame popular culture and voting for idiots every time around and acting against their own interests. But I know that's not a good way for me to be. Too many innocents get dragged down, too.

 

[LosBlancos]

Well god forbid people have access to basic standards of living like health care, welfare, housing and food 8) . Are you telling me that if you found yourself on the unemployment line you wouldn't accept dole checks because you would be "looting" someones pay check of a few bucks? You guys have basically no welfare state in place to help the poor anyway so it's not like it's breaking your bank account. Or are you one of those people who think it will never happen to them? Frankly it's stupid comments like these why the majority of people never take the far right seriously at all. If you where starving $20 says you'd be running to the nearest dole office as quick as you could.

What about the "looting" of your hard earned money to build the roads and bridges you drive on everyday or the buses and subways and basic infrastructure you use everyday to get to work. Are you against that too? Guess you'd better build your own roads then

As for the actual looting i don't agree with it. I am all for economic warfare but this is not the way to do it and not the way to get the local populace on your side as it just looks bad and does little damage to the states economy in the long run.



I loled so hard i sprayed Lime soda all over my keyboard you bastard

If I found myself on unemployment I would happily accept dole checks because I've been paying into the damn system my whole life reaping relatively little benefits. The common argument now to raise minimum wage is that it's not a "livable wage" then we get examples of a woman with 5 kids all from different fathers and with her job at McDonalds she can't support all of them. Where is personal responsibility to abstain from pumping out children left and right? The "social safety net" however actually encourages more kids, the more you have the bigger your welfare checks and your food stamps, and with Obamacare free health care for all the children.

You act like people have a gun to their heads telling them not to pay attention in class, to not go to the library and pick up the book. Not only this but your ilk on the far-left not only want every indigent inner-city dweller eating steak and lobster every night but you want to flood our streets with millions of more destitute people whom will all need a slew of taxpayer money every month to survive.

 

[alasdairm]

manufacturing hypothetical edge cases and using them to criticise a whole section of society you find distasteful might put a smile on droppersneck's face but it doesn't add a whole lot of value to forum discussion.

we get it, los blancos. you hate poor people and "you liberals" who have the audacity to want to help somebody other than themselves. you've said that now. what's next?

you're entitled to use the privilege of your membership here to express your opinion as long as you do that in a civil manner. but if you've come to bluelight to just rant at people in posts full of thinly-veiled racism and other bigotry, you might be better off elsewhere...



alasdair

 

[LosBlancos]

manufacturing hypothetical edge cases and using them to criticise a whole section of society you find distasteful might put a smile on droppersneck's face but it doesn't add a whole lot of value to forum discussion.

we get it, los blancos. you hate poor people and "you liberals" who have the audacity to want to help somebody other than themselves. you've said that now. what's next?

you're entitled to use the privilege of your membership here to express your opinion as long as you do that in a civil manner. but if you've come to bluelight to just rant at people in posts full of thinly-veiled racism and other bigotry, you might be better off elsewhere...



alasdair

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this forum Current Events and Politics? I thought it welcomed discussion from all those who wished to opine. I can assure you I am not a racist, racism is still prevalent today and I detest it, this case is only seen on these proportions because of racism. If it was a white man shot by police ask yourself whether Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Eric Holder or Obama would have spoke about it. There would be collectively birds chirping in the media outlets. This case and Treyvon Martin it's the same story.

"Liberals" want to help people? Well how kind to vote to give away the money of others to help people. I prefer giving to charity myself or perhaps going on a mission with the Church building homes in Guatemala with other members of the congregation, if you prefer to simply vote and raise welfare payouts and food stamps well kudos to you you are a true humanitarian right up there with Mother Theresa. "If you give a man a fish he eats for the day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime". I want to teach the men to fish, not send them a fish for free every month.

 

[bit_pattern]

If I found myself on unemployment I would happily accept dole checks

Dole checks? Here's a protip for you: when you're trying to pass yourself off as an American try to to use screamingly obvious Australianisms like "dole check" 8)

I thought it welcomed discussion from all those who wished to opine.

You're not opining, you're trolling as a sockpuppet.

 

[alasdairm]

I thought it welcomed discussion from all those who wished to opine.

you're entitled to use the privilege of your membership here to express your opinion as long as you do that in a civil manner.

alasdair

 

[nuttynutskin]

What about the "looting" of your hard earned money to build the roads and bridges you drive on everyday or the buses and subways and basic infrastructure you use everyday to get to work. Are you against that too? Guess you'd better build your own roads then

Seriously? Comparing the money looters cost to things that a modern society benefits from? That's one of the worst arguments I've heard.

you're entitled to use the privilege of your membership here to express your opinion as long as you do that in a civil manner.

alasdair

Unless your views are with the majority in this section. Then you can feel free to insult and troll those damn right wingers to your hearts content. It's all clear to me now.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

As for the explanation, I've no idea, although I suppose you've already blamed it on the "slave trade" and colonialism so I guess we can attribute it to that, even that was all far in the past. To be clear on history there are instances of Africans occupying Europe particularly the Moors in Spain and Italy, why do colonialism only have an adverse effect on African nations, the Italians and Spaniards seemed to be prosperous nations soon after they expelled the invaders from their countries.

I'd probably say weaker governments, more corruption, shorter life expectancies, GINI coefficient, culture, pollution, etc.

There's an interesting take on US/European history. During the middle ages, one European was much more likely to kill another. If the murder rates during the middle ages were compared to countries today, Europe would easily have been a contender for one of the most violent places on earth - and this is for the areas we *know* about, where the locals were stable enough to keep good records - God only knows what the hell was happening in the regions that weren't stable or literate enough to create records/have the records survive to the present day. The European Western world (including places Europeans settled) show a remarkable decline in the murder rate up until relatively recently. But even today, such rates aren't even - take the US for example, where the south has made a strong showing of having a murderous tradition. Social tensions is one possible explanation - the south has its rich and poor, and a strong us-versus-them mentality, where people find themselves coping with current and/or past discrimination. Which sounds a lot like regions of Africa - corruption runs rampant, past and current discrimination can be high, etc.

While Europe, for the most part, has that nasty socialist hand that evens things out, and is PC enough to reduce the effects of discrimination. The US has a much higher GINI coefficient, with a greater legacy of us versus them ("them black folks need to know their place" is basically official US policy up until the 1960s, and still simmers underground today). Correspondingly, murder rates in the US tends to be much higher than murder rates in Europe. Africa is, for the most part, adapting from massive changes that occurred relatively recently, trying to adopt what tends to be culturally foreign ideas to government, with us-versus-them group tensions, has a much higher murder rate.

Or, y'know, the murder rate could be innate, and alien space bats slowly replaced all Europeans with more peaceful versions of themselves, starting in the Middle Ages and ending relatively recently.

 

[LosBlancos]

I'd probably say weaker governments, more corruption, shorter life expectancies, GINI coefficient, culture, pollution, etc.

Now I've heard it all...pollution causes people to kill one another! Shorter life expediencies cause people to kill each other? You would think that would just result from the killing. Pollution though? Beijing is one of the most polluted cities in the world, they have little to no murders at all. China has huge differentials of wealth also and they have no murders, and that's a sample size of over a billion people!

While Europe, for the most part, has that nasty socialist hand that evens things out, and is PC enough to reduce the effects of discrimination. The US has a much higher GINI coefficient, with a greater legacy of us versus them ("them black folks need to know their place" is basically official US policy up until the 1960s, and still simmers underground today). Correspondingly, murder rates in the US tends to be much higher than murder rates in Europe. Africa is, for the most part, adapting from massive changes that occurred relatively recently, trying to adopt what tends to be culturally foreign ideas to government, with us-versus-them group tensions, has a much higher murder rate.

Or, y'know, the murder rate could be innate, and alien space bats slowly replaced all Europeans with more peaceful versions of themselves, starting in the Middle Ages and ending relatively recently.

I'm not sure who is "us" and who is "them". If you are referring to discrimination against African-Americans, well we now have a Black president I'm not sure if you heard, so that's the kind of upwards mobility that exists in America. If you work hard you can be a CEO, the President, anything you wish, irregardless of your race, America for the most part works off being a meritocracy aside from Democrat legislation such as Affirmative Action which places race at the forefront of hiring decisions.

Even in South Africa where the "oppressive whites" that were ruling for so long were taken out of power the murder rate has not gone down. Now the Africans are in control of their own country and has not become more peaceful by and large. So in the United States you blame a history of discrimination on this problem but Africa were today the government is run by Africans by and large we can't blame whites so there's other explanations like the GINI index?

America has higher murder rate than Europe and say it's caused by Europeans being more accepting and having stronger socialist systems in place. You also fail to take into account the demographics of Europe, most countries having high numbers of native born Europeans, whereas America is much more diverse. If you considered the murder rate only amongst European-Americans our murder rate would be comperable to that of Belgium.

 

[ebola?]

that's a sample size of over a billion people!

This...well, this truly offends me.

You need to reacquaint yourself with the concepts of population, sample, and observation. Because we are discussing cross-national comparison, you are describing a single observation point within a sample of countries (or maybe a potential census...who knows what's in your head ), within the population of all countries on Earth.

So no, your musings about China alone do not constitute a convincing body of evidence for your argument.

If you are referring to discrimination against African-Americans, well we now have a Black president I'm not sure if you heard, so that's the kind of upwards mobility that exists in America.

To get a valid picture of relevant social conditions, we need to look to statistically demonstrable trends, not singular examples. Social systems are complex and multiply determined, so singular examples tend not to be particular telling other than as illustration.

Now the Africans are in control of their own country and has not become more peaceful by and large.

Given continued, nearly untouched racialized differentials in wealth, it is not valid to say that native South Africans control their own country in any meaningful sense.

If you considered the murder rate only amongst European-Americans our murder rate would be comperable to that of Belgium.

Demonstrate this.

ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

To get a valid picture of relevant social conditions, we need to look to statistically demonstrable trends, not singular examples. Social systems are complex and multiply determined, so singular examples tend not to be particular telling other than as illustration.

I posted statistics and was met with explanations varying from pollution to descriptions of violence in NYC 200 years ago to violence in the Middle Ages. Which is it statistics or bloviating on random variables that could effect murder rate?

Demonstrate this.

ebola

[h=1]Ann Coulter: "If You Compare White Populations, We Have The Same Murder Rate As Belgium"[/h]
http://mediamatters.org/video/2013/01/14/ann-coulter-if-you-compare-white-populations-we/192232

 

[spacejunk]

Dole checks? Here's a protip for you: when you're trying to pass yourself off as an American try to to use screamingly obvious Australianisms like "dole check" 8)

Nah, pommy I reckon mate.

 

[alasdairm]

Unless your views are with the majority in this section. Then you can feel free to insult and troll those damn right wingers to your hearts content. It's all clear to me now.

that's quite untrue. if you see a post in here which is problematic, or you believe exemplifies your claim, please report it.

alasdair

 

[paranoid android]

Seriously? Comparing the money looters cost to things that a modern society benefits from? That's one of the worst arguments I've heard.

I was not making that comparison the person i quoted was. Of course that's not looting but for many in the far right it's the same thing including the person i quoted.

Nah, pommy I reckon mate.

Naw he was just saying it after i said it. The Dole is a pretty common term here for Welfare checks. I've never heard it used anywhere else in Canada or America though. Others nicknames being giro or if your on unemployment insurance the pogey.

 

[legalizeall]

^ who's "they"?

alasdair

Black people.

 

[legalizeall]

Well god forbid people have access to basic standards of living like health care, welfare, housing and food 8) . Are you telling me that if you found yourself on the unemployment line you wouldn't accept dole checks because you would be "looting" someones pay check of a few bucks? You guys have basically no welfare state in place to help the poor anyway so it's not like it's breaking your bank account.

Are you serious. Thats exactly what is available. If you don't make a certain amount of money, are jobless, kids, etc you can receive money, housing, and food stamps from the federal government. Ive seen it. There are programs out there, seem to be being cut, but its not nonexistent.

 

[legalizeall]

manufacturing hypothetical edge cases and using them to criticise a whole section of society you find distasteful might put a smile on droppersneck's face but it doesn't add a whole lot of value to forum discussion.

we get it, los blancos. you hate poor people and "you liberals" who have the audacity to want to help somebody other than themselves. you've said that now. what's next?

you're entitled to use the privilege of your membership here to express your opinion as long as you do that in a civil manner. but if you've come to bluelight to just rant at people in posts full of thinly-veiled racism and other bigotry, you might be better off elsewhere...



alasdair

I think its really a inaccurate statement to call losblancos a racist. Ive never seen him express distaste for poor people or liberals. He just presents his view of things from a different side, and i tend to agree with what he says so I guess im racist. Except I have black friends, my gf is half mexican, and the only friend I have on this site is waffle sock who is black. It seems the trolling and racist label is prevelont around here if disagreeing with certain people. This is a forum about discussing politics from different sides right?

Even if you disagree with someone when things are presented in calm and decent ways, it goes farther. People here that i disagree with 90% of the time have changed my views on certain topics when presented in a way that didnt include the trolling or supremacy thing.

Unless you physically go out and give money to the poor, there is no way to tell where your money goes. The federal government doesnt seem to be dishing it out at all in regards to how I have seen public services closing over the years here. THe big issue that is growing is the gap between the rich and not rich. People are making less and working more and so people are less inclined to give it away or "donate."

For whatever reason the media blows up these cases and it becomes such a race issue. It doesnt have to be. You got the media showing one moment interviews with the black families and explaing how this white cop shot this kid and then they show people looting the stores. Fueling the fires on both sides. I dont think the cop thought of race when he used his gun. I think cops has disdain for people. When you present cases over and over and have race as part of the issue, of course it wont go away. Its sad because progress has been made since the rights movement and it just seems to have it a blockade and i blame the media for that. I also blame the rap culture for that too.

I think the looting is just opportunity for losers that piggy back of the actual demonstrations. It really takes it down to a level and takes it away from the serious ones who want to make change.

 

[paranoid android]

Are you serious. Thats exactly what is available. If you don't make a certain amount of money, are jobless, kids, etc you can receive money, housing, and food stamps from the federal government. Ive seen it. There are programs out there, seem to be being cut, but its not nonexistent.

Well i live in Canada and from what i have heard from most people in the US (except for the far right who don't believe in having any welfare state) it's even harder down there to survive on government assistance then it is here in most provinces. Apparently it's just about impossible to get welfare or anything other then food stamps if your a single person with no kids. Considering how impossible it is to make ends meet here on welfare i can only imagine how bad it would be in a country with a worse welfare state then ours. And then the middle class and the elite have the nerve to wonder why working class people often turn to crime 8) . If you can't heat your apartment or afford to eat there are not many people i don't think who would not be tempted with a offer for more money legit or not.

 

[LosBlancos]

Well i live in Canada and from what i have heard from most people in the US (except for the far right who don't believe in having any welfare state) it's even harder down there to survive on government assistance then it is here in most provinces. Apparently it's just about impossible to get welfare or anything other then food stamps if your a single person with no kids. Considering how impossible it is to make ends meet here on welfare i can only imagine how bad it would be in a country with a worse welfare state then ours. And then the middle class and the elite have the nerve to wonder why working class people often turn to crime 8) . If you can't heat your apartment or afford to eat there are not many people i don't think who would not be tempted with a offer for more money legit or not.