The Dive's Covid Thread

[-=SS=-]

It's gone from being funny, to not being funny due to tyranny, to being funny once again.

Honestly. It's in the fucking headline for christ sake. If everyone is jabbed then the jabs don't work, and if they don't work then there is absolutely no point in trying to keep the tide back with one hand by wearing masks and generally acting like a compliant fucknut.

It is just staggering that they would try this. The only explanation left is this is about tyranny and ulterior objectives. Even a single digit IQ brainlet can see it now.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Wearing masks could be related to Long COVID

Fögen explained that wearing masks could end up increasing your overall viral load because, instead of exhaling virions from your respiratory tract and ridding your body of them, those virions are caught in the mask and returned.

This might also have the effect of increasing the number of virions that pass through the mask, such that it becomes more than the number that would have been shed without a mask.

The fact that “hyper condensed droplets and pure virions in the mask might be blown outwards during expiration, resulting in aerosol transmission instead of droplet transmission” is another issue that could make transmission worse instead of better, and the use of “more protective” masks could also backfire, making COVID-19’s long-term effects worse.

Fögen explained:

“The use of “better” masks (e.g., FFP2, FFP3) with a higher droplet-filtering capacity probably should cause an even stronger “Foegen effect” because the number of virions that are potentially re-inhaled increases in the same way that outward shedding is reduced.

“Another salient point is that COVID-19-related long-term effects and multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children may all be a direct cause of the ‘Foegen effect.’

“Virus entry into the alveoli and blood without being restricted to the upper respiratory tract and bronchi and can cause damage by initiating an (auto) immune reaction in most organs.”

 

[Xorkoth]

I use to think people wanted to be individuals but this whole mess has shown me a good majority of people WANT to be told what to do and how to think, it’s just easier that way in this 9-5 life, nobody got time to think, and it’s by design

To me, this is an entire half of the plight of humanity ever since the beginning. Most people want to be told what to believe, and a small percentage get off on controlling everyone else. This is the reason for nearly all of our societal problems, and always has been, and probably always will be.

well probably wouldn't have handled it better unvaccinated, no?

I am also a bit disappointed that the virus already evolved away from the vaccines too much for them to be really useful (seemingly), but come on... this shit is unpredictable and hard to navigate. we gave it a shot with the vaccine but it didn't work out as hoped. I still believe we saved a fair bit of lives when the earlier variants were still active.

This has been my view all along. The vaccines worked well against the original variant, that much was clear. Unfortunately, the virus has evolved so much that they're not effective against what it has turned into. It was a legitimate attempt to reduce harm, which was also a money grab, because literally everything is a money grab when it is being produced for profit. And now it's still a money grab. That's the conspiracy.

what happened to the so called vaccine that the military developed that was supposed to cover every variant?

anybody remember that?

Good question, I do remember that, I hadn't thought of that in quite a while.

Doubt it, my package of pods got hung up in Cali now I’m not gonna get them till Friday, so I got a good 36 hours of miser coming my way

Damn man, I fucking hate that shit. You get them today?

I got a suboxone prescription today. I've been buying them here and there and bouncing back and forth between kratom or others, and sub. It was a relief to pick up a prescription for $10 so I can stop spending all this money and properly do a slow taper down to nothing.

Wearing masks could be related to Long COVID

Fögen explained that wearing masks could end up increasing your overall viral load because, instead of exhaling virions from your respiratory tract and ridding your body of them, those virions are caught in the mask and returned.

This might also have the effect of increasing the number of virions that pass through the mask, such that it becomes more than the number that would have been shed without a mask.

The fact that “hyper condensed droplets and pure virions in the mask might be blown outwards during expiration, resulting in aerosol transmission instead of droplet transmission” is another issue that could make transmission worse instead of better, and the use of “more protective” masks could also backfire, making COVID-19’s long-term effects worse.

Fögen explained:

“The use of “better” masks (e.g., FFP2, FFP3) with a higher droplet-filtering capacity probably should cause an even stronger “Foegen effect” because the number of virions that are potentially re-inhaled increases in the same way that outward shedding is reduced.

“Another salient point is that COVID-19-related long-term effects and multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children may all be a direct cause of the ‘Foegen effect.’

“Virus entry into the alveoli and blood without being restricted to the upper respiratory tract and bronchi and can cause damage by initiating an (auto) immune reaction in most organs.”

That sounds sensible on the surface. But I wonder at why, then, mask wearing has been the common procedure to help reduce transmission of airborne viruses for so long now, by medical staff? Proper masks, of course. Has it just not worked all along? Or are people trying to make us think it's a hoax in the name of opposing perceived tyranny?

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

That sounds sensible on the surface. But I wonder at why, then, mask wearing has been the common procedure to help reduce transmission of airborne viruses for so long now, by medical staff? Proper masks, of course. Has it just not worked all along? Or are people trying to make us think it's a hoax in the name of opposing perceived tyranny?

“Masks in operating rooms do not change post-op infection rates. To my surprise the medical literature for the past forty-five years has been consistent: masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease and, if anything, are unsanitary objects that themselves spread bacteria and viruses. ”

• • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1157412/
    
    
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7379387/

• • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2766345/

• • Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11924291/

• • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1853618/

• • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11512642/

• • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11760479/

• • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11510307/

• • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20524498/

• • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21068655/

• • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20575920/

• • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24532167/

• • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25294675/

• • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25187588/

• • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26085560/

• • Is a mask necessary in the operating theater? Ann R Coll Surg Engl 1981;63:390-2 https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ffectiveness/BB28A0E3B50BCD293C5281E4AE6DFF00

• • Mitchell NJ, Hunt S. Surgical face masks in modern operating rooms—a costly and unnecessary ritual? J Hosp Infect 1991;18(3):239-42 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1680906/

• • Tunevall TG. Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study. World J Surg 1991 May-Jun;15(3):383-7 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1290255/

• • Belkin NL. Masks, barriers, laundering, and gloving: Where is the evidence?AORN
    https://aornjournal.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1016/S0001-2092(06)63946-X

• • None of these surgical masks exhibited adequate filter performance and facial fit characteristics to be considered respiratory protection devices. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(07)00774-2/fulltext

 

[Las Veghost grower]

To me, this is an entire half of the plight of humanity ever since the beginning. Most people want to be told what to believe, and a small percentage get off on controlling everyone else. This is the reason for nearly all of our societal problems, and always has been, and probably always will be.



This has been my view all along. The vaccines worked well against the original variant, that much was clear. Unfortunately, the virus has evolved so much that they're not effective against what it has turned into. It was a legitimate attempt to reduce harm, which was also a money grab, because literally everything is a money grab when it is being produced for profit. And now it's still a money grab. That's the conspiracy.



Good question, I do remember that, I hadn't thought of that in quite a while.



Damn man, I fucking hate that shit. You get them today?

I got a suboxone prescription today. I've been buying them here and there and bouncing back and forth between kratom or others, and sub. It was a relief to pick up a prescription for $10 so I can stop spending all this money and properly do a slow taper down to nothing.



That sounds sensible on the surface. But I wonder at why, then, mask wearing has been the common procedure to help reduce transmission of airborne viruses for so long now, by medical staff? Proper masks, of course. Has it just not worked all along? Or are people trying to make us think it's a hoax in the name of opposing perceived tyranny?

I just got them back home, the fed ex driver never came to the house but marked it as nobody home since it required a signature, I called fed ex and they refused to call the driver and tell him I been Homs all day 20ft from my front door and he never attempted delivery, ultimately I had to drive to the next town over in crazy traffic to pick it up at the distribution center , been a aggravating day to say the least, but I got some pods on the stove now

E: just out of curiosity have you had success with doing a sub taper and getting off completely or just back to Kratom only ? I don’t know why but I always fail with subs and end up going back to H immediately, pods have been the only thing to keep me off H for extended periods of time, I can reduce my pod use pretty easily, like in this current situation I went from 3-4tsp pod extract a day down to 1tsp a day with almost no discomfort so I think a taper on pod extract is possible since it has a pretty long half-life too but haven’t really tried it

 

[Nas47]

No problem to me to wear mask...you Americans are very sensitive bout everything that hurts yoy right-to walk freely,to wear mask&buyand own a gun.....so different.Covid for me was real shit.Here hit also with full force....a population of middle sized town is dead by this for now.And this is much,'cause we are little like numbers....in the other way-vaciness in my opinion also brings some risks...I got my three jabs,but don't know which was the right decission...anyway it's too late...what's done is done.Now must escape somehow(with God's mercy)apocalypse and trying to survive recessesion.....fuckin'great.Thank you U.S.,Thank you Putin,Zelenski&all EU...a big,big mess.Try to live as usual&don't wanna read more news.....endless agony.how wants slow suffocatong instead of quick end?

 

[-=SS=-]

This has been my view all along. The vaccines worked well against the original variant, that much was clear. Unfortunately, the virus has evolved so much that they're not effective against what it has turned into.

I don't believe they worked initially at all. I think it's a charade that hides behind statistics to obscure the truth, and that goes for all vaccination. Through a firm grip on the education system they condition people into believing it from an early age.

They can't hide it. The historical data shows unequivocally that for the major diseases of the 19th and early 20th that vaccinations had absolutely nothing to do with the decline in mortality and incidence of the disease because they were all introduced at the tail end of the downward curves. In the case of Scarlet Fever there never was a vaccination campaign for it, and it disappeared on its own.

It's people pretending they know selling products to people who believe they know. Whether they actually understand how it all works is up for debate, but it makes no difference to whether they can convince you to accept/buy their products.

TLDR: It's all bullshit. All of it.

 

[PtahTek]

Masks in operating rooms do not change post-op infection rates.

I see your point but if I am opened up I would prefer not to be sneezed or coughed into while on the table then sewn back up with whatever inside... just nasty. lol

 

[Las Veghost grower]

I see your point but if I am opened up I would prefer not to be sneezed or coughed into while on the table then sewn back up with whatever inside... just nasty. lol

Well that’s pretty much all masks are good for, large water particles like a sneeze or cough, and that can help reduce viral load in a given area, but I though it was common courtesy to sneeze or cough into your shirt at the elbow ?

 

[PtahTek]

Well that’s pretty much all masks are good for, large water particles like a sneeze or cough, and that can help reduce viral load in a given area, but I though it was common courtesy to sneeze or cough into your shirt at the elbow ?

Was speaking of ORs.
But who actually does this cough/sneeze in the elbow? I do not see it before or after covid. they just let rip. lol

 

[Las Veghost grower]

Was speaking of ORs.
But who actually does this cough/sneeze in the elbow? I do not see it before or after covid. they just let rip. lol

I always cough or sneeze into my shirt, elbow if long sleeve or up higher if short sleeve

 

[Xorkoth]

“Masks in operating rooms do not change post-op infection rates. To my surprise the medical literature for the past forty-five years has been consistent: masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease and, if anything, are unsanitary objects that themselves spread bacteria and viruses. ”

• • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1157412/
    
    
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7379387/

• • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2766345/

• • Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11924291/

• • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1853618/

• • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11512642/

• • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11760479/

• • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11510307/

• • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20524498/

• • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21068655/

• • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20575920/

• • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24532167/

• • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25294675/

• • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25187588/

• • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26085560/

• • Is a mask necessary in the operating theater? Ann R Coll Surg Engl 1981;63:390-2 https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ffectiveness/BB28A0E3B50BCD293C5281E4AE6DFF00

• • Mitchell NJ, Hunt S. Surgical face masks in modern operating rooms—a costly and unnecessary ritual? J Hosp Infect 1991;18(3):239-42 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1680906/

• • Tunevall TG. Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study. World J Surg 1991 May-Jun;15(3):383-7 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1290255/

• • Belkin NL. Masks, barriers, laundering, and gloving: Where is the evidence?AORN
    https://aornjournal.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1016/S0001-2092(06)63946-X

• • None of these surgical masks exhibited adequate filter performance and facial fit characteristics to be considered respiratory protection devices. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(07)00774-2/fulltext

Thanks for those, I'll check some of them out. If evidence supports their lack of efficacy, then I'm willing to change my mind. That said, to me, it logically makes sense that if someone has a communicable airborne virus spread via water droplets, and they sneeze or cough, it will reduce viral load in the area due to the moisture ending up on the mask not ending up in the air. Ultimately, I have no problem wearing a mask, and I would still be doing so, even if it was just making others feel more comfortable. As it stands, I am not wearing one, because no one else is anymore, (well, almost no one) and I've had covid twice. No one seems to care that I'm not wearing one and I feel no need for myself, so I don't. If everyone started wearing them again, I would, because I am not bothered by not wearing one, but I am bothered by making people upset or uncomfortable.

I just got them back home, the fed ex driver never came to the house but marked it as nobody home since it required a signature, I called fed ex and they refused to call the driver and tell him I been Homs all day 20ft from my front door and he never attempted delivery, ultimately I had to drive to the next town over in crazy traffic to pick it up at the distribution center , been a aggravating day to say the least, but I got some pods on the stove now

E: just out of curiosity have you had success with doing a sub taper and getting off completely or just back to Kratom only ? I don’t know why but I always fail with subs and end up going back to H immediately, pods have been the only thing to keep me off H for extended periods of time, I can reduce my pod use pretty easily, like in this current situation I went from 3-4tsp pod extract a day down to 1tsp a day with almost no discomfort so I think a taper on pod extract is possible since it has a pretty long half-life too but haven’t really tried it

Ugh. Well, I'm glad you finally got them.

Yeah I have gone to suboxone and tapered off to nothing one time (it was difficult), and I have gone back to just kratom a number of times, the latter I find pretty easy. Suboxone is easy to get down to 2mg with, the drop down lower is harder, but it's very easy to taper compared with any other opioid. Then when you switch back to kratom, it is fairly difficult for a few days to a week, but if you've tapered down to 1mg or less, you will feel kratom, and it will prevent you from being in withdrawal, though you will not feel very good. Then after a week, you'll start to feel decent with kratom again. The main problem is, you have to dose the kratom pretty often in fairly high doses, so you end up doing a lot of kratom, and I find kratom much harder to taper than suboxone, and I feel less stable on it.

I'm planning, with this prescription, to taper very slowly in 10% drops, down to 0.05mg of suboxone, and then jump off from there and use gabapentin and clonidine to help. I am using this time feeling stable and good on my prescription to start daily working out and get back in shape, when I'm working out, jumping off opioids is much, much easier. Since I have the pills, dosing very precisely is easy (~48mg of pill matter per 1mg of suboxone, and I have a milligram scale). It will take quite a while, but I am going to be starting therapy for the underlying stuff that made me relapse in the first place.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

Thanks for those, I'll check some of them out. If evidence supports their lack of efficacy, then I'm willing to change my mind. That said, to me, it logically makes sense that if someone has a communicable airborne virus spread via water droplets, and they sneeze or cough, it will reduce viral load in the area due to the moisture ending up on the mask not ending up in the air. Ultimately, I have no problem wearing a mask, and I would still be doing so, even if it was just making others feel more comfortable. As it stands, I am not wearing one, because no one else is anymore, (well, almost no one) and I've had covid twice. No one seems to care that I'm not wearing one and I feel no need for myself, so I don't. If everyone started wearing them again, I would, because I am not bothered by not wearing one, but I am bothered by making people upset or uncomfortable.



Ugh. Well, I'm glad you finally got them.

Yeah I have gone to suboxone and tapered off to nothing one time (it was difficult), and I have gone back to just kratom a number of times, the latter I find pretty easy. Suboxone is easy to get down to 2mg with, the drop down lower is harder, but it's very easy to taper compared with any other opioid. Then when you switch back to kratom, it is fairly difficult for a few days to a week, but if you've tapered down to 1mg or less, you will feel kratom, and it will prevent you from being in withdrawal, though you will not feel very good. Then after a week, you'll start to feel decent with kratom again. The main problem is, you have to dose the kratom pretty often in fairly high doses, so you end up doing a lot of kratom, and I find kratom much harder to taper than suboxone, and I feel less stable on it.

I'm planning, with this prescription, to taper very slowly in 10% drops, down to 0.05mg of suboxone, and then jump off from there and use gabapentin and clonidine to help. I am using this time feeling stable and good on my prescription to start daily working out and get back in shape, when I'm working out, jumping off opioids is much, much easier. Since I have the pills, dosing very precisely is easy (~48mg of pill matter per 1mg of suboxone, and I have a milligram scale). It will take quite a while, but I am going to be starting therapy for the underlying stuff that made me relapse in the first place.

That’s sounds like a solid plan, I hope it works out for the best, if the therapy genuinely helps maybe you can make a thread on that ? I’m sure a lot of us need to but refuse to go, good luck brother

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

“Masks in operating rooms do not change post-op infection rates. To my surprise the medical literature for the past forty-five years has been consistent: masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease and, if anything, are unsanitary objects that themselves spread bacteria and viruses. ”

• • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1157412/
    
    
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7379387/

• • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2766345/

• • Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11924291/

• • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1853618/

• • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11512642/

• • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11760479/

• • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11510307/

• • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20524498/

• • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21068655/

• • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20575920/

• • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24532167/

• • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25294675/

• • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25187588/

• • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26085560/

• • Is a mask necessary in the operating theater? Ann R Coll Surg Engl 1981;63:390-2 https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ffectiveness/BB28A0E3B50BCD293C5281E4AE6DFF00

• • Mitchell NJ, Hunt S. Surgical face masks in modern operating rooms—a costly and unnecessary ritual? J Hosp Infect 1991;18(3):239-42 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1680906/

• • Tunevall TG. Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study. World J Surg 1991 May-Jun;15(3):383-7 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1290255/

• • Belkin NL. Masks, barriers, laundering, and gloving: Where is the evidence?AORN
    https://aornjournal.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1016/S0001-2092(06)63946-X

• • None of these surgical masks exhibited adequate filter performance and facial fit characteristics to be considered respiratory protection devices. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(07)00774-2/fulltext

Until I retired I spent a lot of time in surgical clinical environments. Wearing masks is just the surface. Hospitals almost always keep a separate set of entrances and exits to the OR suites called "sterile corridors". To enter the corridor one must be wearing sterile scrubs (clothing), another sterile gown that covers you from your neck to just below the knees, a cap covering all of your hair, gloves and a N-95 mask. Each time you exit one OR and enter another you have to change gowns gloves cap and mask if a surgery was in progress when you exited. There are so many other regulations that make masks seem minor, TBH.

That being said, I believe that there is no actual clinical need,, just regulations that must be practiced in order to maintain accreditation to AHC, a separate regulatory group that oversses al American hospitals. There are very likely similar regulatory bodies elsewhere in the world with their own jurisdiction.

The paper and cloth masks most people wear are, in truth, just something to help them cope. The mask has to be at least N-95 and it has to fit...

But I will seldom express my opinion because it seems to upset many, and I sincerely don't want to cause them unneeded anxiety.

So if you're gonna mask up, make it a N-95 or you aren't changing much.
Stay safe !

 

[-=SS=-]

Thanks for those, I'll check some of them out. If evidence supports their lack of efficacy, then I'm willing to change my mind. That said, to me, it logically makes sense that if someone has a communicable airborne virus spread via water droplets, and they sneeze or cough, it will reduce viral load in the area due to the moisture ending up on the mask not ending up in the air.

This is what is so incredibly evil about the whole thing, if you see it from my perspective of it being a charade. No evidence was really required to get you to wear masks (and other measures), only fear. But in order to revert to normal and end the fear, one requires solid evidence. And they know this.. whilst controlling the scientific establishment machinery and media machinery.

Despite the fact we have real world data comparing regions of mask wearers to non-mask, such as England vs Scotland, which shows masks made absolutely no difference. We know they make no difference. But this point has not been underscored by the media and governments, in fact it has been deliberately ignored.

The fact they have deliberately chosen not only to ignore but actually double-down shows this isn't about health at all. It is malicious.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Until I retired I spent a lot of time in surgical clinical environments. Wearing masks is just the surface. Hospitals almost always keep a separate set of entrances and exits to the OR suites called "sterile corridors". To enter the corridor one must be wearing sterile scrubs (clothing), another sterile gown that covers you from your neck to just below the knees, a cap covering all of your hair, gloves and a N-95 mask. Each time you exit one OR and enter another you have to change gowns gloves cap and mask if a surgery was in progress when you exited. There are so many other regulations that make masks seem minor, TBH.

That being said, I believe that there is no actual clinical need,, just regulations that must be practiced in order to maintain accreditation to AHC, a separate regulatory group that oversses al American hospitals. There are very likely similar regulatory bodies elsewhere in the world with their own jurisdiction.

The paper and cloth masks most people wear are, in truth, just something to help them cope. The mask has to be at least N-95 and it has to fit...

But I will seldom express my opinion because it seems to upset many, and I sincerely don't want to cause them unneeded anxiety.

So if you're gonna mask up, make it a N-95 or you aren't changing much.
Stay safe !

yea that's what i normally do in xray - surgery - ive done more surgery than probably anything else - but im just flipping around the c-arm and we'd take some final shots in the end - but the docs that are scrubbed in hold those films and position the patient

so yea ive worn a surgical mask for years - it's just part of the job - i never questioned it either way, but it is interesting to read all of that

we never wore N-95 masks in surgery tho - never - just surgical masks - N95 was basically a dust mask for when you're trying not to breathe in particulate in some sort of trade like when i worked on aircraft

 

[Jabberwocky]

Man, scientists are dumbasses.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Man, scientists are dumbasses.

 

[Electrum1]

Fauci announced that he's retiring by the end of this administration

 

[Mr. Krinkle]