The Dive Social v. CHEERS! 🍻

[Jabberwocky]

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I saw that earlier

I always log on to BL like 10 hrs after reading reddit and you always beat me to the punch. What a hypocritical lying POS. I wonder if Ted Cruz was the father of the second one.

 

[w01fg4ng]

you always beat me

lol

 

[RareForm]

You shouldn't refer to yourself in the fourth person.

 

[Mjäll]

Sadly the left and feminism are denying the sex differences that power our entire ride. Men are reduced to obedient worker bees devoid of charisma, treating their women like scary mommies. Women are denied their instincts too. Children are postponed and then treated like property rather than persons.

 

[mal3volent]

It's almost like CNN is in on the joke.

 

[w01fg4ng]

 

[Mjäll]

I have never had to think about this question. All my long term partners have been fully aligned with me politically. That’s not why we were/are together, but it is why we aren’t not together… or something like that.


Huh? What a twisted and uninformed view of the left and feminism. For me feminism has helped me cultivate highly loving relationships filled with kinky sex beyond my wildest dreams, and I know many men who feel the same. If for you charisma equals toxic masculinity, then sure, i am devoid of charisma. But most people find me charismatic (dictionary definition, not your definition), even though I fully support feminism. Women aren’t denied anything, the basic idea of feminism being they can choose what to do with their lives. You are right that women, when given education and a choice, postpone childbirth or forgo it entirely. What’s the problem there? They are the ones who bear the brunt of pregnancy and the majority of child rearing. Why should anyone else have a say over that? I am unaware of children being treated like property by social liberals.

I guess you and me won’t be dating

Sure feminism has brought some good things and it is hard for me as a ~libertarian to disagree with female rights. I'm just highlighting a problem specifically with the belief that men and women are psychologically equal and all differences in outcome are malignant social constructs (equality feminism might be the name for this concept). This has been very influential at least in my country and i think worldwide. Also i brought up what i think is a problem with late childbirths as a consequence of general developments . I agree with the liberty while being somewhat concerned with certain outcomes. Experience and knowledge might be the solution. Or maybe civilization collapses before that can happen.

 

[Keeloverandfly]

Sure feminism has brought some good things and it is hard for me as a ~libertarian to disagree with female rights. I'm just highlighting a problem specifically with the belief that men and women are psychologically equal and all differences in outcome are malignant social constructs (equality feminism might be the name for this concept). This has been very influential at least in my country and i think worldwide. Also i brought up what i think is a problem with late childbirths as a consequence of general developments . I agree with the liberty while being somewhat concerned with certain outcomes. Experience and knowledge might be the solution. Or maybe civilization collapses before that can happen.

Well that is a much less cynical and judgmental way of talking about feminism than your previous statement…

Curious to know what the negative outcomes of parity between the sexes could possibly be (except in sports where I no opinion because I don’t like sports). For now we are so far from parity in most countries that it is impossible to say with certainty, but what is sure is that non-parity is not working for 100% of people. It hardly works for 50%. Your user name indicates some sort of Nordic origin. If you are indeed from a Scandinavian and thus more enlightened country (in terms of gender equality), perhaps you can specifically some examples of why gender parity doesn’t work in your country. Otherwise to my ears it just sounds like typical masculinist ranting.

And I don’t see a problem with late childbirths. The world is vastly overpopulated and with the mechanization of most secteurs humans are becoming more and more obsolete. I embrace the prospect of dwindling human populations, even if it means the last years of my life I will be poorly cared for (ie not enough young people to care properly for the old, and I won’t have children myself).

 

[Mjäll]

Well that is a much less cynical and judgmental way of talking about feminism than your previous statement…

Curious to know what the negative outcomes of parity between the sexes could possibly be (except in sports where I no opinion because I don’t like sports). For now we are so far from parity in most countries that it is impossible to say with certainty, but what is sure is that non-parity is not working for 100% of people. It hardly works for 50%. Your user name indicates some sort of Nordic origin. If you are indeed from a Scandinavian and thus more enlightened country (in terms of gender equality), perhaps you can specifically some examples of why gender parity doesn’t work in your country. Otherwise to my ears it just sounds like typical masculinist ranting.

And I don’t see a problem with late childbirths. The world is vastly overpopulated and with the mechanization of most secteurs humans are becoming more and more obsolete. I embrace the prospect of dwindling human populations, even if it means the last years of my life I will be poorly cared for (ie not enough young people to care properly for the old, and I won’t have children myself).

I don't think it was less cynical. Just elaborated on a few things. My view is the same as in the previous post. I never wrote that i completely disagree with female rights, although i can understand that it's a relief for you when i clarify it.

I described the negative outcome of assuming that men and women are psychologically the same and viewing any societal expression of sex differences as pathology, instead of embracing the differences in a positive manner. I also described the negative outcome of late childbirth. I don't think low fertility rate in itself is the main problem with that, but rather the increased risk of complications and genetic defects along with the lesser importance placed in children and family. I somewhat disagree with an emphasis on female careers. I think feminism has been naively operating on an assumption that in order for women to gain a legit place in society, they must prove to be as good as men at the stuff men do. I think we can progress to accept women as women and not as second-rate men. I think it's quite natural if men work a little more and do more risk taking since women are sometimes busy with super important life generating stuff.

It's not at all about masculinist values for me. I'm not at all that kind of man. I'm a quiet guy who likes art and gets along with girls. I have disappointed my family by having no interest in sports or other normal competitive and loud boy stuff.

I think "more enlightened" is a simplistic way to describe the feminism of Sweden and this type of feminism in general. As said, this type of feminism (along with other modes of thought among the mainstream left) assumes the erroneous premise that men and women are psychologically identical and that all expressions of sex differences are somehow wrong. In my first post i observed this problem and how it affects lived experience in heterosexual relationships. This is mostly from second-hand experience since i don't have that kind of relationship myself because i simply refuse to accept those premises and am always very open about this with my partners.

I hope something got clearer.

Please understand that i'm from a feminist country and have been thoroughly marinated in feminism throughout my life. This opinion i describe is not some lazy macho kneejerk but a carefully elaborated opinion formed by criticizing the silent assumptions of feminist society, much like feminism originally came from a criticism of previous norms. The opinions i espouse here are not those of privileged inertia, but are (or were until recently) considered almost dangerous fringe opinions here.

So, i am onto something. It is truth and love and embracing the unity in otherness. It is a critique and development of good impulses. It is not brute misogyny. I completely get your misunderstanding, though. Tricky stuff.

 

[assclass]

They are the ones who bear the brunt of pregnancy and the majority of child rearing. Why should anyone else have a say over that?

A) it takes a man to cum in you and make the pregnancy, so women aren't 100% responsible for having a child
B) because men are legally/financially responsible. If you want to take 100% of the responsibility and credit for children, you can't expect child support.
C) Men, design and build the majority of builds, roads and other stuff, so why should women have a say in how men do mens work? (imagine thinking like this, what lunacy) (point C is a joke, at your expense, although if we could just banned woman drivers....)

 

[ions]

Porn is like an aspirin for wanking. Unless you get a vivid dream. Then that's easy too. But it doesn't get better or easier with age. @darvocet21
It's not that I can't have sex. I know the steps to intimacy. The winds of the universe usually steer my own path. But my body scream, do her.
HPV was just commonplace at my undergrad. Small school, and we were all fucking the same two girls.
Also known as cauliflower cock.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Porn is like an aspirin for wanking. Unless you get a vivid dream. Then that's easy too. But it doesn't get better or easier with age. @darvocet21
It's not that I can't have sex. I know the steps to intimacy. The winds of the universe usually steer my own path. But my body scream, do her.
HPV was just commonplace at my undergrad. Small school, and we were all fucking the same two girls.
Also known as cauliflower cock.

Did you get HPV? Wasn't that a SUNY, surely there were more than 2 women who had it.

When I was in university we had an outbreak of syphilis, people who were poz or HIV+ or living with AIDS and not on meds, lots of heroin overdoses, herpes, and different types of Hepatitis like B and C. I never was infected with anything.

 

[ions]

Yeah I’ve probably been exposed to hiv and hep c. But I’m keepin on.

All colleges have hpv. Some push the herp,

It’s like a right of passage here. How good are you?

 

[Keeloverandfly]

I don't think it was less cynical. Just elaborated on a few things. My view is the same as in the previous post. I never wrote that i completely disagree with female rights, although i can understand that it's a relief for you when i clarify it.

I described the negative outcome of assuming that men and women are psychologically the same and viewing any societal expression of sex differences as pathology, instead of embracing the differences in a positive manner. I also described the negative outcome of late childbirth. I don't think low fertility rate in itself is the main problem with that, but rather the increased risk of complications and genetic defects along with the lesser importance placed in children and family. I somewhat disagree with an emphasis on female careers. I think feminism has been naively operating on an assumption that in order for women to gain a legit place in society, they must prove to be as good as men at the stuff men do. I think we can progress to accept women as women and not as second-rate men. I think it's quite natural if men work a little more and do more risk taking since women are sometimes busy with super important life generating stuff.

It's not at all about masculinist values for me. I'm not at all that kind of man. I'm a quiet guy who likes art and gets along with girls. I have disappointed my family by having no interest in sports or other normal competitive and loud boy stuff.

I think "more enlightened" is a simplistic way to describe the feminism of Sweden and this type of feminism in general. As said, this type of feminism (along with other modes of thought among the mainstream left) assumes the erroneous premise that men and women are psychologically identical and that all expressions of sex differences are somehow wrong. In my first post i observed this problem and how it affects lived experience in heterosexual relationships. This is mostly from second-hand experience since i don't have that kind of relationship myself because i simply refuse to accept those premises and am always very open about this with my partners.

I hope something got clearer.

Please understand that i'm from a feminist country and have been thoroughly marinated in feminism throughout my life. This opinion i describe is not some lazy macho kneejerk but a carefully elaborated opinion formed by criticizing the silent assumptions of feminist society, much like feminism originally came from a criticism of previous norms. The opinions i espouse here are not those of privileged inertia, but are (or were until recently) considered almost dangerous fringe opinions here.

So, i am onto something. It is truth and love and embracing the unity in otherness. It is a critique and development of good impulses. It is not brute misogyny. I completely get your misunderstanding, though. Tricky stuff.

I still find many of your arguments lack… arguments. Concrete examples. Except for what you said about late childbirth and birth defects, it is all very vague. I have no argument against that, though I dont see it as a serious existential problem for humanity.

The thing about women being able to work is that they have the CHOICE to work, not necessarily that they do. There is a major flaw in the working woman model that has been discussed in feminism for decades. That is that if women work they need their partner to pitch in with household chores, child rearing and mental burden in relationships. This is the half of feminism that is much trickier to put into practice: the male half. So you are right that a working woman has less time for her kids, but so does a working man. In a couple where both partners are equally career oriented it can surely be a problem. But why is childraising inherently a female's job?

 

[assclass]

But why is childraising inherently a female's job?

biology.

Think about it this way, why has childrearing been a females job across cultures for thousands of years?

 

[Mjäll]

I still find many of your arguments lack… arguments. Concrete examples. Except for what you said about late childbirth and birth defects, it is all very vague. I have no argument against that, though I dont see it as a serious existential problem for humanity.

The thing about women being able to work is that they have the CHOICE to work, not necessarily that they do. There is a major flaw in the working woman model that has been discussed in feminism for decades. That is that if women work they need their partner to pitch in with household chores, child rearing and mental burden in relationships. This is the half of feminism that is much trickier to put into practice: the male half. So you are right that a working woman has less time for her kids, but so does a working man. In a couple where both partners are equally career oriented it can surely be a problem. But why is childraising inherently a female's job?

Many of my arguments? I have presented 2 arguments total. You are actively ignoring one of them. I'm simply pointing out that nothing in reality points to men and women being mentally identical, so it's flawed to build an ideology upon that assumption.

Now you're explaining some basic feminism to me, non sequitur, as if assuming i don't know basic shit just because we disagree on some vague notion of overall positivity toward the general concept of feminism.

Will you begin to respond to my points or just keep nervously flitting around the fact that someone doesn't seem to be uncritically in love with feminism?

 

[Keeloverandfly]

Men and women are psychologically different, sure. Feminism doesn’t argue that. Feminist literature often points to the inherent differences between men and women through statistics (which often attest to the inherent violence of men, but don’t show any major intellectual differences). Feminism argues that men and women should be treated the same and given the same opportunities in life. That includes what women decide to do with their bodies (ie late childbirth) and what they decide to do with their careers. The inherent psychological differences in men and women have no bearing on what jobs each sex is capable of doing in the modern world for a large majority of jobs.

And your initial statement, sorry man, it didn’t sound like it came from someone who thought much about feminism or it’s (in my opinion very positive) impact on couples. Even if you have shown that you have put thought into the subject in the following comments. In any case I hope someday you will embrace feminism and see the ultimate positivity it brings to relationships! It helped me learn how to have durable loving relationships after 15 years of relationships that didn’t quite cut the mustard.

(Sorry OP for detailing the conversation!)

 

[Mjäll]

Men and women are psychologically different, sure. Feminism doesn’t argue that. Feminist literature often points to the inherent differences between men and women through statistics (which often attest to the inherent violence of men, but don’t show any major intellectual differences). Feminism argues that men and women should be treated the same and given the same opportunities in life. That includes what women decide to do with their bodies (ie late childbirth) and what they decide to do with their careers. The inherent psychological differences in men and women have no bearing on what jobs each sex is capable of doing in the modern world for a large majority of jobs.

And your initial statement, sorry man, it didn’t sound like it came from someone who thought much about feminism or it’s (in my opinion very positive) impact on couples. Even if you have shown that you have put thought into the subject in the following comments. In any case I hope someday you will embrace feminism and see the ultimate positivity it brings to relationships! It helped me learn how to have durable loving relationships after 15 years of relationships that didn’t quite cut the mustard.

(Sorry OP for detailing the conversation!)

Feminism does argue that. Not all varieties of feminism at all times everywhere, but i've seen it happen. It's been the operating principle in my officially feminist country for like 15 years, and an influential concept way before that. Any statistical expression of sex differences has been categorically interpreted as arbitrary social construct and patriarchal indoctrination. Equal outcome has been assumed as the metric for equal opportunity. You're either ignorant or lying.

The rest of your post is fluff. I'm not here to prove my alignment with feminism.

 

[arrall]

Moved some feminism discussion from SLR to here.