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The Da Vinci Code.....

Void said:
man the church is wierd in a sense. It found a bunch of scrolls about another society and their stories, then rather then stick them in a museum, decided to use 'em to create a religion.


Actually it was the Naustics that created Christianity. Most people aren't aware of this because Naustics were a sect started with nihilistic beliefs, and supported the idea, that GOD created us by accident, or mistake. This was before the time of Christ BTW. Christianity is older than most people seem to think. Jesus was simply the guy, that learned about their beliefs, and spread them.

I learned this on the History channel, so not too sure it's all accurate, or whether it was just more propaganda from the BBC.
 
Regardless of the validity of the information in the davinci code, or the intrigue of the story, it makes people think about where their information is coming from.

If you dont question your sources, a leader or institution can manipulate its constituents or followers to the limit only of their faith in the leader or institution.

So, it is important to remember in the light of this book that all of the texts you find in the bible (which also has a multitude of editions and arrangements) were at one time debated over by the canon of the catholic church. Which means that none of what composes the bible is absolute fact, but determined as close to truth as they could assess through history and logic at that time.

Remember, the Bible is not a primary source. It is a secondary source comprised of selected works which were chosen by those in power at the time, namely the Roman Catholic Church, and not their Gnostic counterparts.

History is written by the victors. Heresy is written by the defeated. It is your job to decide which makes more sense to you. Think for yourself.

After all, Jesus was heretic to the Judaic community. And he did not find his truth through an institution. He got it straight from the source. We are capable of that too.

"So, you are having a conversation with God, and it is you doing all the talking?"
 
And by the way, the Gnostics were not nihilistic...Nietzche was the founder of Nihilism. The Gnostics were the Left brain of the Christian movement at the time of the birth of the church. They saw the story of Jesus as a metaphor for the human journey, and gave no credence to a literal interpretation. Jesus spoke in parable (aka metaphor), and in that light, the Gnostics saw Jesus as a figure who expressed the potential in all of us for enlightenment/getting closer to god/understanding the mystery behind creation.

It is true, though, that "Christianity" is much older than the church. It can be traced and linked to many other religious traditions other than the one started by the Catholic Church.

Gnosticism is as Nihilistic as Buddhism, which (if you look beyond the surface) is not. Nihilism tells us that nothing exists. Buddhism tells us to find out for ourselves what is real and what is not real.

Follow dogma in order to see past it, for the symbols and stories are the last obstacles to be overcome.

Those who say, don't know. Those who know they don't know, don't say.
- Joseph Campbell
 
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I read this book a few months ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I normally do not read a lot of fiction but the non-fiction elements of the book were woven into the story in such a way that it was very compelling.

As you read it you are just waiting for them to reveal "the next fucked up fact about christianity that has shaped the world we live in"

little tidbits of information were delicious...like:

The pentogram symbol was originally a symbol of Venus, the feminine and fertility. Satanic symbolism was implied by the christian church and also largely by hollywood.

In Davinci's painting of the last supper... people are so trained that the people in the painting must be all men and the deciples that most people do not even notice the blatantly obvious woman sitting right next to jesus. Also in the painting everyone has small glass cups.... not a Holy Grail to be seen anywhere?


the book really pulls you along desiring more juicy and thought provoking facts like these.

I also heard rumour that it is being made into a movie? And also heard rumour that Ridley Scott was attached to direct??? Can anyone substantiate these rumours?

If a movie was made it would no doubt be incredibly controversial... watch out passion of the christ!
 
"juicy and thought provoking"

most things are not both of these... the fact that this book spawns uncited debate rather than research is an indication of as much.
 
WhyzFool said:
And by the way, the Gnostics were not nihilistic...Nietzche was the founder of Nihilism. The Gnostics were the Left brain of the Christian movement at the time of the birth of the church. They saw the story of Jesus as a metaphor for the human journey, and gave no credence to a literal interpretation. Jesus spoke in parable (aka metaphor), and in that light, the Gnostics saw Jesus as a figure who expressed the potential in all of us for enlightenment/getting closer to god/understanding the mystery behind creation.


I said nihilistic belief, as in exsistence is full of nothing, and we are here with-out purpose, thusly live your life with abandon, and freely.

Nietzsche was not the father of nihilism. That was Schopenhauer. Gnostics were already dead, and gone by the time the Catholic church came into being. They argued, that we are the mistake of GOD, and he was really quite distateful towards us, and hated us. They were also around well before the coming of Christ, and he was said to have visited them in the "Dead Sea" scrolls. Which for those that aren't aware are the only scrolls left behind by the Gnostics.


It is true, though, that "Christianity" is much older than the church. It can be traced and linked to many other religious traditions other than the one started by the Catholic Church.

Christianity has proven to be older than Christ himself, but that is a matter of interpetation.

Gnosticism is as Nihilistic as Buddhism, which (if you look beyond the surface) is not. Nihilism tells us that nothing exists. Buddhism tells us to find out for ourselves what is real and what is not real.

I don't think you have grasped nihilism, totally. It says exsistance is with-out cause, and has no true meaning. It brings into greater aspect in Neitzsche nihilism with the denial of a supreme being, or the denial of organized religion, as being morally superior. He even goes into the denial of morality in total later in his life.

Follow dogma in order to see past it, for the symbols and stories are the last obstacles to be overcome.

Those who say, don't know. Those who know they don't know, don't say.
- Joseph Campbell


Dogma is that, something to train people to listen, and obey like dogs.

It should be, "Those that don't respond, don't know. Those who know they don't know, play the part of the fool."
-- Nid Styles
 
Psychonaut777 said:
The Dead Sea Scrolls is another highly debateable issue. The simple answer is that ALL scrolls with the name of God written on them were preserved, even those inaccurately translated and worthless. it is highly probably that priests in training wrote those scrolls and the cache (of which there are probably tons we have yet to find) are just a bunch of bad copies that had to be preserved ritualistically as they were.

Isn't it just as possible that the church decided to keep only the scrolls and gospels that they deemed fit for mass consumption? I think that would be entirely more likely. Wasn't that what the REAL purpose behind the Crusades was? Gathering and destroying unwanted information. Could that have served any purpose but to cover up something major.

I definately do not believe that Jesus had a child, or for that fact anything at all about the Catholic relgion. Like you said, there is NO WAY to know what the truth is now, it is entirely too late for that. One thing I do know though, is that the Catholic religion isn't exactly an organization with a moral and ethical history. But then again, what powerful organization is?
 
It is said they burned the rest of the scrolls, when deciding what to put into the bible. THis was supposedly done around 300 A.D.
 
I would like to point out a few historical facts:

Fact: Jesus the man was a Jew.
Fact: As a Jew, Jesus the man would not have been allowed in the Temple unless he was married.
Fact: The Bible, specifically the New Testament, places Jesus the man in the Temple on several occasions.
Fact: The Bible was created by The Ecumenical Counsel, presided over by the Emperor Constantine (who by the way was a practicing PAGAN) around the year 300A.D.
Fact: All other conflicting or ambiguous Christian works that were not used in the first Bible were destroyed. Very few survived (the Dead Sea Scrolls being some of those "testaments")

If you know your HISTORY, The Da Vinci code isn't really so confounding or fantastical. Remembering, of course, that the Da Vinci Code is historical fiction (meaning that the story, although fiction, is based in part in historical fact) it isn't such a stretch that the general public would have mixed emotions about the work. It was written, I imagine, to do just that. There is no change without controversy. This book suggests that the "Chrisitian" world should have some doubts about their beliefs. Personally, I am infuriated by many of the historical actions of the Catholic Church. The very reason the Founders of this country included such "inalienable" rights as Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech is so that we would have the RIGHT to commit heresy if saw reason to do so.
Even God gave us Free Will.

One of the main lessons of the Da Vinci Code is the concept of the "Sacred Feminine". This concept is heretical to the Church. Basically, the premise behind this concept is that women, because of their ability to bear children and bring life, are inherently sacred and inherantly "closer to God". The Pagans taught men that they should revere the "Sacred Feminine". The concept of "The Sacred Feminine" was intended to bring balance to life. Men do not exist without women and vice versa. Personally I think the world would have been a much more peaceful place if Constantine had decided to unite the world in Paganism rather than Catholicism.

I think the Da Vinci Code did the world a favor. It at the very least raises the point that the Bible was created by men for men. And raises the question that "What if Jesus really was just a man?" The implications SHOULD be far reaching. Undoubtedly Jesus was a Holy man, a man of God. But the question of his Divinity remains thus.
 
A little OT, but isn't God a big hypocrite? I mean he loves all of his creations right? Everything natural is created by him, right?

Being gay is natural, as we have just discovered (sorry to all you bigots out there). But, isn't being gay a sin? So how is something natural, that God loves, a sin?

"Undoubtedly Jesus was a Holy man, a man of God. But the question of his Divinity remains thus." - If he is a man of God, then isn't he divine?

expatriate - How could you be mad at the Church? (sarcasm). They did everything for power. It's easy to rule over the mass uneducated people.

Another question for Christians - if Jesus loved everyone and never judged or disliked anyone, even the man who would betray him, how can Christians dislike and judge and act cruel to others daily?

I guess you guys are just like your God then, right?

Oh, and expatriate. There is no free will ;) There is no God. Even if there was free will, there still wouldn't be a God, at least not a Christian one.
 
*bump* a great read, i read it all in one day, and i have to say, i believe in everything it says. Probably because im a gullbile, like conspirarcy theorists as well as upholding my belief that the bible is merely a creation of a person.
 
expatriate said:
IFact: The Bible was created by The Ecumenical Counsel, presided over by the Emperor Constantine (who by the way was a practicing PAGAN) around the year 300A.D.

This was one of my main points in my original post regarding this book. Constantine wanted nothing to do with Christianity besides using it as a device to control the public. He was an avid worshipper of the "Pagan" Roman gods and was not babtised until he was on his deathbed, against his own will. The Church made the world believe that he was so amazing and impressed by Christianity that he converted and dropped his previous beliefs entirely. This was obviously not the way things were. I remember growing up learning about the history of the world and always hearing about the Christian Emporer Constantine that helped spread the relgion far and wide. Horseshit is what I say.
 
I definately do not believe that Jesus had a child,


i think its quite plausable really....... lets see...
he was a jewish man in his 30's..... and he didnt have a wife or a child?
2000 years ago jewish culture would have insisted that a man of his age be married have children....he would have been looked at with same if he did not..... no?
 
Ok, maybe I was being a little to consipracy theorist saying that it was completely against his will. I belive it to be very plausible that this was so, but he definately wasn't babtised until he was almost dead. I do however remember reading that this was so, but it was most likely just a theory. Clearly I can't come up with proof of this, but at this point ANYTHING we say is just a theory.
 
expatriate said:
Personally I think the world would have been a much more peaceful place if Constantine had decided to unite the world in Paganism rather than Catholicism.

Peaceful as before Constantine? But yes, let's blame it all on cathoclicism...
 
Went to look for Ulysses but it was sold out:(
Found a copy of The Da Vinci Code instead:)
Will post reaction once I find time to read it.
 
xtcvitality said:
Isn't it just as possible that the church decided to keep only the scrolls and gospels that they deemed fit for mass consumption? I think that would be entirely more likely.
They certainly did. Most of the NT books were written down between 50-150 AD. There wasn't one official church at the time, just a number of congregations, founded by the various different apostles or those who knew them. The various stories and sayings and teachings of the congregations got written down and circulated in gospels. In addition to the four in the NT, there were numerous others, some which we have copies or fragments of, some which we only know of through mentions in other early Christian literature. There was a Gospel of Thomas, of Peter, of the Hebrews, of Truth; Acts of various people; letters by various people; all in all a whole slew of documents.

As time goes by, people in the churches talk with each other and try and hash out their differences. We have lots of writings of the early church fathers from 100-300-- Ignatius, Clement, Origen, etc -- discussing various works, saying "this one is falsely written, for it contains blasphemy," "this one is authentic, for it was written by so-and-so." You see sects emerge with rough agreement on what is right, which denounce and shun each other as heretics. eg, Eusebius discusses which books are accepted, debated, and blasphemous by around ~300:
...all these may be reckoned among the disputed books. But we have nevertheless felt compelled to give a catalogue of these also, distinguishing those works which according to ecclesiastical tradition are true and genuine and commonly accepted, from those others which, although not canonical but disputed, are yet at the same time known to most ecclesiastical writers -- we have felt compelled to give this catalogue in order that we might be able to know both these works and those that are cited by the heretics under the name of the apostles, including, for instance, such books as the Gospels of Peter, of Thomas, of Matthias, or of any others besides them, and the Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles, which no one belonging to the succession of ecclesiastical writers has deemed worthy of mention in his writings.

And further, the character of the style is at variance with apostolic usage, and both the thoughts and the purpose of the things that are related in them are so completely out of accord with true orthodoxy that they clearly show themselves to be the fictions of heretics. Wherefore they are not to be placed even among the rejected writings, but are all of them to be cast aside as absurd and impious.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
Eventually, when the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church gained the sanction of the state with Constantine, they were able to use it to suppress the various offshoots deemed heretical. Augustine had the sect of Arians' books banned and burned ~425...
The emperor punished Arius with exile, and dispatched edicts to the bishops and people of every country, denouncing him and his adherents as ungodly, and commanding that their books should be destroyed, in order that no remembrance of him or of the doctrine which he had broached might remain. Whoever should be found secreting his writings and who should not bum them immediately on the accusation, should undergo the penalty of death, and suffer capital punishment.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf2-02-19.htm#P3125_1277828

The first big list of banned works shown appears in ~500 :
V. The remaining writings which have been compiled or been recognised by heretics or schismatics the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church does not in any way receive; of these we have thought it right to cite below a few which have been handed down and which are to be avoided by catholics:

<long list>

These and those similar ones... and what also all disciples of heresy and of the heretics and schismatics, whose names we have scarcely preserved, have taught or compiled, we acknowledge is to be not merely rejected but eliminated from the whole Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and with their authors and the followers of its authors to be damned in the inextricable shackles of anathema forever.

http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm
 
i betcha hitler killed the great great (for ages n ages) grandson of jesus.

I bet he was one of those jews.

I bet hitler was the devil and he knew this, and did it to piss off god.

Maybe it was a girl.. anne frank?

Hmmm.

This whole topic is awfully ridiculous, noone can prove anything no matter how hard they try.
Sorry for the pessimistic attitude but this a discussion for old men with nothing better to do, surely we can direct our thoughts to more meaningful ideas. :D
 
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