The Clinton Discussion Thread

[Cream Gravy?]

^What's the point in being in a super secret club if no one knows the super secret club exists right?

 

[JessFR]

Exactly, secret societies are like Disneyland, brand recognition and protection is vital. It's important that your logo be stuck absolutely everywhere and anywhere. Just like the hidden mickeys. There'd have to be an entire team in the illuminati deep state devoted to brand recognition and consistency. Making sure their logos can be found in anything and everything. :D

Money well spent.

 

[JGrimez]

Okay, I'm sick of the Clintons=Statanists stuff, it doesn't hold water.

At times, when you say stuff like that Grimez, you remind me of my conspiracy theory uncle. He believes in the pedophilia and the satanism, hell he believes Hillary is a man. And Serena Williams. And that they used holograms to stage 9/11 (lol wut? How is that more logical than it just being an inside job with explosives used?). And that the Earth is flat... He's on the side of my family that is extremely Catholic/conservative, and even they can't stand his nonsense. In fact I'm the only one who still debates with him, because I get such a kick from poking holes in his theories. If you ask him for sources, he starts shouting about how they're out there, just look it up, it's all over the web... Sheesh.

That said, if another Clinton runs for president, I'm voting third party or GOP...

Even Snopes says it's true lol

Cream Gravy - I like you. You're one of the more respectable people I converse with here. But then you gotta go and compare me to your crazy Flat Earther uncle. I know that personality type of the conspiracy theorist that buys into literally every conspiracy theory. They're a creation. "Conspiracy theory" was a term made by the CIA in the 60's to ridicule anyone who spoke against the official government narratives. This state-sponsored psychological operation has been very successful. Then imagine adding to that a bunch of purposefully false theories (Flat Earth) plus false theories that muddy legitimate criminal conspiracies (9/11 holograms). Then to most people "conspiracy theories" just seems like a big mess that's not worth dealing with. But there's lists of conspiracy theories that did prove to be true - Iran-Contra, Manhattan Project, Gulf of Tonkin etc etc shit I remember when Obama wiretapping Trump Tower was a conspiracy theory! Some people think it still is!!

I have sources for my claims. What I also do is imagine what it would be like on the other side. If Ivanka Trump was tweeting the Church of Satan what would people say lol. Or if President Trump did HALF the stuff that Hillary has gotten away with... the ignorant Hillary supporters I don't have much of a problem with, the ones that are in denial are particularly infuriating.

To piss of her parents? That's the most common reason people use satanism as a metaphor for hedonistic left wing ideologies.

It's inappropriate. Even if she isn't do you want our politicians to be joking about Satanic stuff?
If one is a postmodernist liberal they probably wouldn't mind and might even celebrate that stuff. What if Trump started wearing inverted crucifixes.

That or she's part of a massive pedophile conspiracy going to the very top levels

If it's true then she was born into it. That's how these practices and cycles stay alive.
The Catholic Church has probably been a safehaven for pedophiles for generations.

Something I find very amusing is imagining the goings on if a group like the illuminati did exist in regards to their sticking their symbols and logos everywhere. I imagine some guys in suits talking about the importance of brand recognition in their secret society. :D

Symbolism will be their downfall

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Fair enough. I'm not saying you're THAT out there, it was just something that popped into my head.

Glad you're not a flat earther lol, it bothers the shit out of my father that his sister married a guy that's now convinced her the Earth is flat lol... he's an engineer, an aerospace one at that. He's ardently Catholic, but when they point to Genesis as source for the Earth being flat, he scoffs. So glad my direct genes are reasonable enough to take the first book of the Bible with a grain of salt. I don't mind if people believe in a higher faith, but taking Genesis literally is silly, and arguably un-Christian. My St. Joseph version of the Bible has subtext that basically states "This was pulled from Israelite sources that were passed by word of mouth and should be taken with a grain of salt i.e. not literally".

Now I'm curious, do you believe Satanism is inherently evil? Are you a follower of an organised faith? Something we've never actually discussed now that I think about it.

Cream Gravy - I like you. You're one of the more respectable people I converse with here.

And thanks. I like to think that I try to leave my emotions at the door when I enter this sub-forum. They aren't given to rational debate.

 

[JessFR]

I don't want chelsea clinton as president, I don't want her in politics at all, fuck that. I don't like political dynasties and the sooner we get rid of the clintons from politics the better.

Also could you please show me what snopes says is true specifically?

Also, satanism is nothing to do with literal belief in satan, it's just a pseudo hedonistic left wing ideology that calls itself satanism to piss of their members christian parents and christians generally. Or rather laveyan satanism is, and virtually all western self identified satanism is laveyan satanism.

I've met a lot of people like that, they tend to also be the types to identify themselves as Wiccan or occasionally pagan. Usually wearing pentagrams and such and dressing goth. I think it's just a harmless, albeit slightly sad form of self expression, rebellion and individualism (the type of individualism that copies someone elses individualism). I don't think very highly of it and tend to have HIGHLY conflicting political beliefs with such people but, ultimately they're harmless, well intentioned, caring people and in no way actually worship or even believe in Satan.

 

[alasdairm]

Even Snopes says it's true lol

snopes? you mean the source you refuse to accept? that snopes?

...some pretty stringent fact-checking these days (and I am NOT talking about Snopes or Politifact).

cake and eat it amigo.

anyway, the chelsea clinton thing has been debunked and is pretty silly but even if she was a sympathetic to - or even a member of - the church of satan, what's the problem?

i'm told - especially by christians who feel they're persecuted by the liberal anti-christmas brigade - that we're supposed to have freedom of religion in this country. it even gets a mention in the bill of rights. are you suggesting that you do not respect a citizen's constitutionally-protected right to freely exercise their right to worship?

these comments prompted me to check out the official church of satan and their positions on some social issues:

What does the Church of Satan think about homosexuality?


We fully accept all forms of human sexual expression between consenting adults. The Church of Satan has always accepted gay, lesbian, bisexual and asexual members since its beginning in 1966. This is addressed in the chapter “Satanic Sex” in The Satanic Bible by Anton Szandor LaVey.

Does the Church of Satan accept transgender people?

Yes. We have done so since the organization was founded in 1966. If one of our members wishes a membership card reflecting a name change due to a gender identity different from when they originally joined, proof of appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to the new gender should be supplied* and, if such has been issued, updated legal ID for our records. We will then supply an updated membership card.

[*This reflects the standard currently in use by the US State Department, the Social Security Administration, the Department of Homeland Security, the Veteran's Health Administration and Office of Personnel Management.]

Doesn’t the Church of Satan endorse all kinds of hedonism, including drug use?

No. The Church of Satan’s philosophy is Epicurean, not hedonistic. For us a balanced and controlled seeking of pleasures is our goal—indulgence, not compulsion, as would be the case under hedonism. For a detailed explanation of our policy about drug use, please read this essay: The Church of Satan's Policy on Drug Abuse.

My parents don’t understand why I am interested in Satanism and think I’m into Devil worship. What can I do?

You might want to read the Church of Satan Youth Communiqu?, as it explores your situation.

Many young people who read The Satanic Bible realize that Satanism is the proper philosophy for their natures. If they have strong relationships with their parents, they can explain to them what this means—how important a discovery they have made. Others may have parents who are closed-minded and perhaps even bigoted, and then this can lead to some deep disagreements. Satanism teaches that, so long as you live with your parents, you are in “their lair” and must show them respect, but that does not mean that you can change who you really are. In such a conflict, one must “agree to disagree,” and then you should understand that your freedom will come when you make your way into the world. It is also possible that some understanding will evolve, or you might even discover that Satanism really isn't the proper philosophy for you. Having an open mind and being both honest and realistic is very important.

Satanism advocates that young people should spend time in self-exploration—discovering talents and developing them, as well as in exploring the world around you—the many philosophies and cultures that exist, so that you can use your freedom of choice wisely, and come to understand yourself.

Enjoy your life, be practical, and try to see reality without distorting it through idealism.

that all sounds rather progressive and lovely to me - not to mention a little more loving and inclusive than some 'christian' dogma i hear...

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

Grimez may not accept snopes as a valid source, but he knows many of us do. He can argue that our accepted sources supposedly say something even if he doesn't accept their validity himself because he's arguing it to us.

Not defending his opinions specifically, just that it's a valid argument and not logically inconsistent or hypocritical in itself.

I for one do indeed accept snopes as a generally reliable source, so I'm curious what he thinks they say. I suspect it will turn out that snopes does indeed say, correctly, that she has links to satanism. But it'll be harmless laveyan piss off your parents satanism. Which is nothing sinister at all.

EDIT: All that said, I wound up looking for the snipes link on my own. This is what I found.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chelsea-clinton-upside-down-satanic-cross/

Sounds like exactly what JGrimez said, except that they debunk it, not confirm it. Which I find very plausible especially since even the actual laveyan Satanists usually wear inverted pentagrams rather than upside down crosses.

Jgrimez, any comment? Is this the link you were thinking of? Were you mistaken is asserting that they validated the rumor rather than took a position opposing it? Or is there another similar link that they do confirm?

 

[alasdairm]

well, i agree but i was pointing out that he rejects it as a source in one post and refers to it to make a point in another.

alasdair

 

[JGrimez]

Yeah that was a joke. It basically means that it's so undeniable that Snopes can't even spin it.

Now you're trying to argue for Satanism?
Listen to some survivors of SRA (satanic ritual abuse) and we'll see how jolly it is.
I'm not saying that these people are into that but it exists.

 

[alasdairm]

It basically means that it's so undeniable that Snopes can't even spin it.

ah. ok. so snopes is a reliable source but only when it supports your position? gotcha.

Now you're trying to argue for Satanism?

no. and i'm not sure how you could read what i wrote and draw that conclusion.

i am arguing for freedom of religion. are you against freedom of religion and the protection of the 1st amendment?

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

Yeah that was a joke. It basically means that it's so undeniable that Snopes can't even spin it.

Now you're trying to argue for Satanism?
Listen to some survivors of SRA (satanic ritual abuse) and we'll see how jolly it is.
I'm not saying that these people are into that but it exists.

This is why people say you are disingenuous. You know damn well nobody said that. But there's nothing wrong with laveyan satanism. It has nothing to do with doing harm to anybody.

And as for satanic ritual abuse, I know we won't agree here, but I don't believe such a thing even exists in any serious way. I believe it's been established conclusively that such stories are fabrications. In some cases they're unintentional fabrications, where the victim honestly believes it, and may well have been a victim of "something". But with the absurd and cliche details brought about through false memory caused by things like hypnosis and drugs in particular. And then made into a moral panic by stupid members of society. But nevertheless non-existent. I see no evidence of any significant satanic ritual abuse existing at any time in recent history and feel such claims have been conclusively disproven.

But we won't agree on that, so getting back to snopes, would you be so kind as to provide a link to where snopes backs up anything you're saying? Anything at all. Cause ive tried on my own and only found one link rejecting what you're saying.

But yes I do consider snopes a source that I consider generally reliable, so if you've got something from them please show me and I promise I'll give it serious consideration.

 

[JGrimez]

Ugh I feel disgusted posting Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chelsea-clinton-church-satan/

That's like ritual abuse against me.

 

[alasdairm]

sorry jgrimez. we're going to need a reliable source. ty

alasdair

 

[JGrimez]

i am arguing for freedom of religion. are you against freedom of religion and the protection of the 1st amendment?

No, I am just against pedo cults hiding behind the protection of religion.
If a religion publicly proclaims it is one thing and secretly its adherents believe that torturing, raping and killing young kids gives them some kind of supernatural power - I have a problem with it.
Watch the two children giving police testimony in the Hampstead case in the UK

 

[alasdairm]

If a religion publicly proclaims it is one thing and secretly its adherents believe that torturing, raping and killing young kids gives them some kind of supernatural power - I have a problem with it.

are you now suggesting that the official church of satan is condoning - or even involved in - the torture, rape and murder of children?

Watch the two children giving police testimony in the Hampstead case in the UK

what, if anything, does that have to do with chelsea clinton and the official church of satan?

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

No, I am just against pedo cults hiding behind the protection of religion.
If a religion publicly proclaims it is one thing and secretly its adherents believe that torturing, raping and killing young kids gives them some kind of supernatural power - I have a problem with it.
Watch the two children giving police testimony in the Hampstead case in the UK

Sure, I mean scientology proclaims it's just a peaceful normal religion when secretly its adherents pretty much abduct people and make use of child labor and all sorts of disgusting abhorrent practices.

But, when virtually anyone in the west talks themselves about being satanist, they're talking about laveyan satanism, and as for laveyan satanism...

Laveyan satanists publicly proclaim they're about using the symbol of satan as a metaphor for living a life free of arbitrary religious rules, where anyone is free to live how they choose provided they don't hurt anyone else, and that persuing pleasure and enjoyment in life, provided you don't harm others in doing so, is not a bad thing. But secretly its abherents are mostly teenagers rebelling against society wanting to call themselves satanists to define themselves as part of a group and piss off mommy and daddy in the process. :D

Ok they'd disagree with me on that last part I'm sure, but my point is they're harmless. Ritual abuse has never been linked to laveyan satanism in any way, and there's no good evidence that any other form of satanism, such as a form that actually worships and believes in the literal angel lucifer of christian theology, even exists in any serious way (as in more than maybe a few dozen crazies around the country).

But more to the point, the church of satan that chelsea clinton tweeted too, is unquestionably laveyan satanists. They don't even believe in the devil, let alone worship him. The only reason they even call themselves satanists is to annoy people and bait them (and conspiracy theoriests are just about the most easily baited people on the internet).

Point being, there's nothing wrong with what chelsea clinton did in wishing them a happy new year. I've known quite a few satanists, and while as i've said, I find the whole thing pretty childish. They're good, well meaning people. The kinda person who becomes goth or wiccan or whatever to express their identity in their teens and early 20s. Not the type to commit ritualized child sexual abuse. If anything they're far more likely to be the victims of child abuse.

 

[JGrimez]

Fair enough. I'm not saying you're THAT out there, it was just something that popped into my head.

I'm used to it. But I get people thinking instead of unknowingly spreading bullshit (or maybe I do who knows)

Glad you're not a flat earther lol, it bothers the shit out of my father that his sister married a guy that's now convinced her the Earth is flat lol.. he's an engineer, an aerospace one at that. He's ardently Catholic, but when they point to Genesis as source for the Earth being flat, he scoffs.

Who's the engineer? Flat Earth Guy? That would be interesting.
I kinda "get" why some people buy into Flat Earth. For one, NASA is full of shit and hides stuff all the time so normal to be skeptical of them. And then there's a reasonable probability that our direct reality may be completely different to what we are currently perceiving. If you've heard of the computer simulation theory, that is taken seriously by a number of scientists. Flat Earth is a somewhat misguided version of that. I also suspect it may have been a psy-op

"This was pulled from Israelite sources that were passed by word of mouth and should be taken with a grain of salt i.e. not literally".

Yes basically this. If you don't take it literally, accept that men have altered parts of it then you can learn some important things from the bible.

Now I'm curious, do you believe Satanism is inherently evil? Are you a follower of an organised faith? Something we've never actually discussed now that I think about it.

I was raised Jewish then I called myself a Pantheist now I just say that I'm religious without one religion. Gnostic Christianity is important. Sufi Islam is important. Religious to me means that you believe our actions in this life have consequences for when we die. So consciousness/spirits/afterlife but not necessarily a God. Maybe call it Source/The One

As for Satanism, I think it's ignorant to focus on the base level followers and not try to expose certain occult aspects that may not be in everyone's best interests. For eg you focus on the secular Jew that does nothing to no one just wants to eat bagels, but then you've got this super religious sect that promotes the person performing a circumcision to suck the baby dick wound with his mouth. Not super PC to discuss that one but that's some shit where I draw the line and say fuck religion what the fuck are you doing. Islam oppressing women, decapitating gays and imposing their culture on the west. Christianity with their "global pedo conspiracy" that is actually 100% real and based in fact. Look at who's connected ot the Vatican... So inherently evil? No... but I don't think that anyone who publicly calls themselves a Satanist really knows what they're aligning with. Or they do and they're rubbing it in our fucking faces.

 

[JGrimez]

JessFR I've also heard the sect be referred to as Luciferians.
Do some research on adrenochrome.
IMO we should err on the side of - maybe there's covert sect massacring kids, instead of there's no way it's happening

 

[JessFR]

Rofl... yes, it's a sect .

While this has been mildly amusing, I think I've had enough for now.

 

[iridescentblack]

JessFR I've also heard the sect be referred to as Luciferians.
Do some research on adrenochrome.
IMO we should err on the side of - maybe there's covert sect massacring kids, instead of there's no way it's happening

From the way you've carried this on so far it seems like you're insinuating that Hillary is either directly connected to that or knows something about it.

Being a former conspiracy theorist I used to be aware of these allegations from both sides. It's a very common insult I've heard numerous times, the p-word, thrown around to try and get reactions from people. It's not particularly hygienic etiquette to just go around throwing these words at people.

Just a tip.