the bluelight preconception, pregnancy and parenting l337ness thread

[voxmystic]

There is one thing more annoying than know it all medico's and that is a Pregnacy Snob, thinking a natural way to deliver a baby is best. You don't actually deserve a medal just because you pushed through the pain barrier.

....you should also keep birthing advice to a minimum.

Are you less annoyed by women who think modern hospital birth is best, or do you think we just shouldn't have or voice opinions on the subject?

Natural birthing is not about simply "push(ing) through the pain barrier." It's about actively bringing your child into the world and not simply allowing a stranger in scrubs to do it for you. There's a whole spiritual epiphany involved that is routinely denied to women in America for the sake of money, or convenience, or through fear-mongering. It's about being the magician rather than the hat.

.....And, I apologize if I've been sharing experiences that nobody wants to hear about. I was under the impression that that was what this thread was here for.

 

[Busty St Clare]

No need to to apologise for voicing your opinion, I just find it insulting to suggest that you are more of a mother for having a natural birth. I hate to break it to you but the rabbit out of the hat trick is not magic, it is an illusion. It is a magicians slight of hand. Placing a natural birth in the same category as a mystical miracle is hilarious. It is this bullshit that puts unnecessary pressure on new mothers. As I stated before your creative editing, the best method is the one that produces both a happy mother and child.

 

[drugfukkdrockstar]

I can hear both sides - but i will say it is refreshing to read Busty's post, because after all one day when it comes time for me to have a baby what if i can't have a natural birth Doctors have advised me when i have had check ups done that i am 'small inside' and i have been advised after i inquired that i could very well have difficulties one day when giving birth. I hate the thought that the way i am built on the inside (i am definitely not too small on the outside!! lol) will mean that i will be forced to have the baby as a ceaser. And therefore because of the pressure and stances a lot of women take because they had a natural birth, that i will then be classed as less of a woman. That would suck. I agree Busty - that's the last thing a new mother needs to feel.

I have spoken to ladies who have straight out told me that any woman that has any drugs or a ceaser during pregnancy is not a real woman. When i asked them that what if it was a life and death situation, then they said that woman shouldn't have had a baby at all. That conversation made me feel pretty sad....

I know no one here is straight out saying that, but i guess this current convo has brought back those feelings from that convo for me. But ah well, I am all for people doing what's right for their baby and themselves. I agree with the theory - happy baby and happy mother.

I am enjoying hearing everyone's stories though... no one should get offended, this is i guess one of those 'touchy' topics

I'll hand out a medal when your kids are 18 and you have delivered into this world a healthy, well adjusted, educated human who is a welcome member to society. That is of far more concern to me than who suffered the most during child birth.

Heh yeah, well said. I agree completely.

 

[User Name Here]

Amen LoveAlways.

I'm sure if you asked most mothers to be they would say you should choose not to be on methadone Lacy K. I'm not saying what you did was wrong, just pointing out presence of glasshouses and the like.

There is one thing more annoying than know it all medico's and that is a Pregnacy Snob, thinking a natural way to deliver a baby is best. You don't actually deserve a medal just because you pushed through the pain barrier. I'll hand out a medal when your kids are 18 and you have delivered into this world a healthy, well adjusted, educated human who is a welcome member to society. That is of far more concern to me than who suffered the most during child birth. If we were to all do it the "natural way" we shouldn't allow any medical intervention at all. Under weight, premature or addicted babies would be just shunted out the door and the mother allowed to fend for themselves. Let mother nature decide what's best. Just as you should leave your own opinions on abortion to ones self, you should also keep birthing advice to a minimum. The only good birth is when the a baby and mother are both happy.

This And with that being said, it's just as obnoxious when women insist epidurals or c-sections are THE way to go. How dare anyone tell you how you should deliver YOUR child. Every woman is different. Thankfully most of us here at BL live in countries where a choice is present. We can choose what fits best for us. What works for one woman may not work well for another and there's NOTHING wrong with this.

Bottom line: if you are not a doctor and don't know me personally, don't tell me how to go about delivering my child =) Insinuations are just as bad, by the way.

Anyway, Voxy, that is so messed up that a doctor told you the only way you could give birth is via c-secton. What the hell? I've never heard of such a thing! I've definitely heard of doctors pushing meds on women during birth but a doctor saying a c-section is the only way to safely give birth is just freaking insane.

As far as my birth goes, I will likely be in a hospital due to the fact that I have epilepsy and in addition to this I want an epidural. I have done lots of research and haven't found the first thing that says epidurals are downright dangerous. Obviously there are cases where things don't go as planned but this happens with or without an epidural. From what I can tell, the only outright effects of epidurals are that the baby tends to be sleepy and that they might have a harder time latching on during breastfeeding. Both of these things apparently only last for a few hours.

 

[kytnism]

i begged for an epidural (after being induced) four hours into heavy labour; and my daughter was born only two hours after (knock on wood).

for those misinformed and uneducated (as i was), being induced means breaking your waters and immediately falling into a detrimental stage of labour. there are no mild cramps or "feelings". the baby is coming.

a midwife implants a large pair of "scissors" inside of you and breaks the barrier between "pregnant" and in "intense/dilated labour".

there is not a soul on this planet that can tell me i didnt experience what they did; nor discount the mind blowing and inexcusable pain of labour i experienced; because like every other mother; i will be as equally as scarred; yet grateful to have been able to give birth on my own and to a healthy baby.

there wasnt a moment where my experience was sugar coated. even with the epidural; i felt extreme tugging and yanking of my spine and insides to the point where i even voiced i was going to give up; my mind was moreso at ease that my back was getting a rest; even though my mind was still determined and challenged throughout every second in the childbirth stage.

the argument between "natural" and "assisted" birth is bullshit. i highly recommend that everyone do what makes them feel comfortable; and what gives them and their child the best entry into this world.

i too had ideals and strict beliefs "before" my daughter was born. live and let live. thats the best advice i can give to any new mother. its such an individual, and beautiful experience; just do what feels right. thats the best anyone can do.

...kytnism...

 

[drugfukkdrockstar]

Great post!

 

[voxmystic]

No need to to apologise for voicing your opinion, I just find it insulting to suggest that you are more of a mother for having a natural birth.

When did I EVER suggest or imply that I was more of a mother?? I've said the exact opposite several times. I straight out stated that a lot of women are victimized by the healthcare system, but that in no way diminishes their womanhood or motherhood. I'm not the kind of person who believes victims are at fault.

I hate to break it to you but the rabbit out of the hat trick is not magic, it is an illusion. It is a magicians slight of hand. Placing a natural birth in the same category as a mystical miracle is hilarious. It is this bullshit that puts unnecessary pressure on new mothers.

It was an analogy. Nobody is making a literal comparison. If that analogy bothers you, I'll revert to my previous one about running a marathon. I've run this entire race, see? I quit using drugs, I've endured the nausea, the heartburn, the mood swings, the zits, the stretch marks, the clumsiness, the constipation, the cravings, the insomnia, the breast tenderness, the water retention, the fatigue, etc., for nine whole months. Now that I'm 10 yards from the finish line, a stranger with initials behind his name wants to cut off my bib, tie it around his own neck, and cross the finish line for me. He wants to take my trophy. He wants to let some faceless nurse give my baby her first bath. I will never get that back. It was mine, and it was stolen, and I am pissed! It will NOT happen again!

As I stated before your creative editing, the best method is the one that produces both a happy mother and child.

If you believe this, then you shouldn't have any problem with me saying that neither c-section nor medically assisted birth produced a happy mother in my case. I know we're all different, but I can only give you ONE perspective, because I only have MY experience.

AGAIN, mothers who choose drugs or surgery ( I'm talking about free choice, not medical neccessity) are not lesser mothers, or lesser women. But they miss out. Just like I missed out with my first two. WTF is wrong with letting women know that? I bloody well wish someone had mentioned it to me about 23 years ago.

Thinking natural childbirth is best shouldn't automatically make me a "pregnancy snob". And it's unfair of you to assume that anyone who thinks natural childbirth is best thinks that women who disagree are somehow inferior, because I think that's a pretty messed up attitude.

 

[voxmystic]

Anyway, Voxy, that is so messed up that a doctor told you the only way you could give birth is via c-secton. What the hell? I've never heard of such a thing! I've definitely heard of doctors pushing meds on women during birth but a doctor saying a c-section is the only way to safely give birth is just freaking insane.

It IS insane! Not just one doctor told me this, but several. Midwives, too. The ACOG guidelines for vaginal birth after ceasarian (VBAC) have, within recent years been ammended to require the presence of an OB and an anesthesiologist for the woman's ENTIRE labor. The doc would have to cancel all of her office appointments, and lose the corresponding income for each and every delivery. It's not financially feasible.

Even worse, the goose-stepping malpractice insurance companies have fallen right in line and raised liability on attending VBACs to a ridiculous level, which has, in some cases, included the insurance company actually DROPPING a doctor's policy if s/he attends a VBAC.

Consequently, many, many U.S. hospitals have outright banned the practice. No doctor in southeast Alaska will do it. Maybe not in the entire state. I asked the nurse at the OB clinic how many women just opted out of medical care when faced with being forced into unneccessary surgery, and she said only 2 in her 15 years in that office. I was one of them.

We are taught that we should listen to our doctors and do what they say, but they will LIE TO YOU. Nobody teaches you that, except the doc who finally does it to you, and gets caught. So trustful birthing women are herded in by the tens of thousands to be unneccessarily sliced open. They're told they have no choice. Once a ceasar, always a ceasar.

The only reason the midwife I finally found can do it, is that she doesn't carry malpractice coverage. Seems like a risky way to practice in these litiginous times, but I am so grateful for her!

 

[LoveAlways]

Doctors have advised me when i have had check ups done that i am 'small inside' and i have been advised after i inquired that i could very well have difficulties one day when giving birth. I hate the thought that the way i am built on the inside (i am definitely not too small on the outside!! lol) will mean that i will be forced to have the baby as a ceaser. And therefore because of the pressure and stances a lot of women take because they had a natural birth, that i will then be classed as less of a woman. That would suck. I agree Busty - that's the last thing a new mother needs to feel.

This is not insane, and since you used the plural doctorS I'm assuming several doctors have told you this meaning its more than likely the case and you should NOT feel bad about it, its just the way that it is and its only in YOUR best interest (and the babies) that they tell you this. I felt sick to my stomach when i learned that I wouldn't be able to deliver my 2nd baby natural per doctor's orders, i thought "how dare they!" and sought every venue to be able to avoid another cesarean. But when i talked with several midwifes (that have been deliverying babies for over 30 years!) they confirmed what the doctors had said and told me the best thing would be to do a repeat csect. I was sad about it for a little bit but then i realized "why should i feel guilty about this??" mo better the baby and i be safe then to satisfy my own desires to feel like "more of a woman" gtg baby crying more l8r =)

 

[Samadhi]

3 of my close girlfriends happened to give birth in the same week (late January) and all 3 had to have medical intervention - all were required due to complications during childbirth. All 3 have advised that they wished they could have given birth vaginally, however obviously don't regret the way they gave birth - it ensured a safe delivery of their babies.

I would like to hope that i can give birth vaginally with no medical intervention, but i'm also realistic and think that women who don't are just as brave and strong as women who do... regardless of whether they choose to give birth via C-S, are required to due to complications, or choose pain relief such as an epidural. For me, I think as long as the mum-to-be is as empowered as she can be through education about birthing options, etc, then the better off she is. I think anyone who is over-opinionated on any side of this argument sucks - this is such an intimate topic and a very touchy/personal subject - and each persons opinion should be respected and supported.

Kudos should be given to all mums - regardless of how bub is delivered

 

[voxmystic]

I felt sick to my stomach when i learned that I wouldn't be able to deliver my 2nd baby natural per doctor's orders, i thought "how dare they!" and sought every venue to be able to avoid another cesarean. But when i talked with several midwifes (that have been deliverying babies for over 30 years!) they confirmed what the doctors had said and told me the best thing would be to do a repeat csect.

See?!! THIS!!! This is what they tried to do to me! They literally left me no option except unassisted birth or unneccessary surgery! Fuck 'em. I chose unassisted birth. And them all actin' like VBAC is a non-option, when it's every bit as statistically viable an option. When you present the santimonious little turds with pesky little things like facts and figures, THEN they bust out with the info that it's motivated by politics, not the best interests of the mother or baby. I had to dig for the info, though. THEY certainly weren't forthcoming with it. You're lucky you could just accept it and move on. I can't. Won't. Still mad. Need to learn to let go, but I just feel so much resentment towards the medical establishment, for this and other abuses. It really eats at me sometimes.

I don't think my choice to have a natural birth is any LESS deserving of support that the choice to have a repeat C. Repeat C's get all kinds of support and encouragement. But I got an ultimatum. The geedee health nurse reported me to child protective services, for crissakes! Now THERE'S a Pregnancy Snob for ya, Busty!

 

[Z Y G G Y]

there are strips at walgreens that tell you when its ok to breastfeed after drinking

they almost wanted to do a c-sec cuz it was the best choice of course. I said no. Try everything so they did. No c-sec.

And I really don't want more kids, ever again. Not only cuz I don't want more but I hated the birth process. It was so INVASIVE. Horrible pain when checking my dilation. I almost punched a doctor. I already thought of it when she was coming to do it. When they say u forget, well I didn't.

Oh and I had an epidural, don't do well with pain. It was the best part. Perfect baby, meets milestones early and stuff that kinda thing and never gets sick with a full house of sick people and wasn't much breastfed.

7 months almost walking and saying pretty complicated vowel/consonant mixtures.

And I was on methadone.

Don't know how it will go later. But I assume she'll be just fine.

I'm also from the camp "let your child fall down" instead of over nurture. Over nurturing can lead to pathology in kids. (personal observation)

 

[voxmystic]

^ That is sweet!

 

[Z Y G G Y]

I also had a very easy pregnancy. Some vomiting but overall I was riding my bike weeks before the birth. Yes, not so careful but then that's just me. 3 pushes and the baby was out, prolly cuz i was fit and rode my bike the entire pregnancy 10 miles a day at least. I didn't work so that amde it easier. Hate to say I smoked a few cigs a day, but did take vitamins.

I don't want to say more cuz I know 99% of women would think I'm insane for how I do things.

 

[LoveAlways]

voxmystic, i understand where you're coming from. I was angry and hurt about it for a long time. the midwives i spoke with aren't the kind that go with you to the hospital, they're the kind that make every effort to ensure their clients never have to go there (although i know of 3 off the top of my head that did end up having emergency sect after 30+ hrs of VERY strenuous labor) they even encourage their clients to not see doctors at all throughout their pregnancy. when they told me they didn't feel comfortable being responsible for that kind of birth and that i would be better off having surgery it was easy to give up the fight because i respect them so much. one told me (since its the law out here to not to vbac's) "what if you just don't sign the papers for the surgery? then they would HAVE to help you deliver naturally" she even had a doula call me and offer her services pro bono to come with me to the hospital and fight on my behalf. I just laughed and said "i dont want to fight anymore, my body can't take it. my heart can't take it. most importantly i dont think my baby can take it" my doula told me (maybe just to humor me) that the stress hormones that your body incurs (during pregnancy and breast feeding) are more harmful to the baby than any of the drugs that they would give you in the hospital. that resonated with me.


zyggy-thanks for keeping it real!

 

[drugfukkdrockstar]

This is not insane, and since you used the plural doctorS I'm assuming several doctors have told you this meaning its more than likely the case and you should NOT feel bad about it, its just the way that it is and its only in YOUR best interest (and the babies) that they tell you this. I felt sick to my stomach when i learned that I wouldn't be able to deliver my 2nd baby natural per doctor's orders, i thought "how dare they!" and sought every venue to be able to avoid another cesarean. But when i talked with several midwifes (that have been deliverying babies for over 30 years!) they confirmed what the doctors had said and told me the best thing would be to do a repeat csect. I was sad about it for a little bit but then i realized "why should i feel guilty about this??" mo better the baby and i be safe then to satisfy my own desires to feel like "more of a woman" gtg baby crying more l8r =)

Yeah im hearing ya, and yeah i never felt annoyed with them for telling me in fact i was grateful. It was about 3 different female doctors that told me. Now that i know - it worries me, but im glad i know at the same time so i will know to research it further at a later date/when the time comes.

 

[ocean]

I unaproved a bunch of posts here responding to a couple nonsense posts.
If you don't see your post, this is why.

 

[Kenickie]

i think more of lacey's point was that our 'birthing industry' sets dangerous precedents for women, complete with the designer births -- planning your csection around work deadlines and what not -- and the ridiculous pressure that says if you don't do it this way (natural or induced) you are a terrible mother. There is an active campaign against women being knowledgeable about any and all kinds of births. How many women go into their hospital, not realizing that csections are a major, invasive surgery? A c-section is not getting your tonsils removed. It can kill you. On one hand I think the risks are overstated (natural births) and the other, radically understated (hospital births). As a person who has never been pregnant, and never plans on being pregnant, I can only speak from the births I've attended as a doula, and the experiences of my mother, sisters, and female friends and cousins around me. It worries me, to no fucking end, the general amount of misinformation that is thrown around by everyone involved -- mothers, grandmothers, doctors, midwives, everyone, and that mothers and babies are dying because of it. The United States has one of the worst, worst maternal and infant death rates in the developed world.
What's going on here? We're supposed to have the best doctors, hospitals, medicine, in the world, and yet more mothers and babies are dying now than they were decades ago.

Personally I'm more concerned with the lack of human connection going into conception, pregnancy, and delivery. A good friend of mine was conceived via artificial insemination, born via c-section, never breast fed, and she's the coldest, cruelest girl I know. Because she's a rich bitch with rich bitch problems? Or because she wasn't made by humans? Idk. I'm concerned that the over medicalization of birth, pregnancy, etc is making it easier for doctors, politicians, and other people in power to write off mothers and women. I fear it's making people look at women as nothing more than breeding machines/incubators who aren't smart enough to make their own choices, and certainly aren't smart enough to handle their own bodies, and that should terrify all women (and men) who give a shit about themselves and their future.

 

[Busty St Clare]

Come on, you are blaming medical science for your friend being a bitch? I'd blame the fact her parents had trouble conceiving there for were over protective, helicopter parents who raised her to believe she was more special than everyone else.

Minorities, those living in poverty, Native American and immigrant women and those who speak little or no English are particularly affected.

These hardly seem to be the ones to be demanding c-sections Kenicke. I'd say it would more due to your poor health system as a whole not simply the increase in rate of c sections. As you said this is for the developed world. Look at the infant death rates for the whole world and you will find the bottom hundred countries are those too poor to have any medical intervention.

I can say for the two births I was personally involved in I would take the planned c section any day of the week. One was 36 hours labour followed by emergency surgery and a week in ICU , while the second was a c section and the mother and child were released after 2 days, both happy and healthy.

 

[LoveAlways]

A c-section is not getting your tonsils removed. It can kill you

So can trying to delivery naturally!!

Come on, you are blaming medical science for your friend being a bitch? I'd blame the fact her parents had trouble conceiving there for were over protective, helicopter parents who raised her to believe she was more special than everyone else.

For real!