• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

The Bikie Wars

What do you think made the Mob tick over before and during the Prohibition? Protection money was their life blood well before running booze. Drugs were also frowned upon until at least the 50's/60's. Ditto for the Triads and Yakuza.

What makes you think Australian bikers are any different? Not everyone qualifies for a bank loan, if your business is failing the banks simply don't want to throw money at you. This is where loan sharks come in handy, at 40% interest they make a tidy profit that is almost legal and with no need to launder.

But you didn't answer any of my questions...you just made new ones that seem highly irrelevant. If protection money was their life line (which I am not arguing it wasn't), it could not have been as lucrative as you state, or else the Prohibition would not of made this mobs so rich and powerful, they would already have been.

Just say I agree with some of what you say here still doesn't prove that all of these secondary propositions are as lucrative as the Drugs Market. It is not. End. Protection money, loan sharking is NOT A MULTI-BILLION dollar industry, if it is, provide a SOURCE, as I can provide plenty.
 
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-on-five-charges/story-e6freon6-1226630679633

$20million dollar collateral big enough for you? The wife of a Hells Angels was also in the news this week for running her law firm as part of a loan shark venture.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...for-hells-angels/story-fnihsrf2-1226766954580


I'm not saying drugs are not interconnected but it is naïve to think legalisation of drugs is going to make much of a difference in their illegal activities. Do you think the government is going to hand the Hells Angels a license to sell drugs if the do? And they won't just open the flood gates and allow corner stores to sell them. It will be tightly regulated and licensed. There will still be a black market for drugs, especially for those people who do not want to go onto a register as a user or license holder. Legal or not there are plenty of professions who will still drug test and will want to know if any of their members have a license to use drugs. Ditto for health insurance companies who will happily increase premiums for drug users. A black market where you can buy drugs, no questions asked will always be in demand, and I guarantee criminal gangs will fill this niche.
 
Yeah, $20million is obviously heaps, but that Olive business in that article could not represent the debt owned by most businesses. You would tend to think that the second victim that owed money in the thousands would be a more common occurrence.
If collecting $20million debts on a regular basis then why would they be involved in small-time loans and debt collection? Lets just say that the $20million debts are common, it is still below 10% of what drugs are worth. We are talking BILLIONS.

I think it would be naive to not believe it would make much of a difference...also going into future prospects of how legalization will work is pointless as we do not know how it will work. Why can't it be like alcohol and tobacco? Also, if you can "guarantee" that criminals will still be involved, then why
don't we see illegal alcohol and tobacco for sale on the black market?
 
There is black market alcohol and tobacco, but it's not very widespread. I assume a similar situation would happen if all drugs were legalized and regulated.
 
There is black market alcohol and tobacco, but it's not very widespread. I assume a similar situation would happen if all drugs were legalized and regulated.

Yeah, I am aware of that, but it is such a small fraction of the black market and consequently of what we were discussing. The dealers on my street aren't exactly pushing home-made vodka to buyers or the shifty guy at the pub selling grams of tobacco. That's what I meant. Obviously there is still a black market, and if we do regulate drugs and what you think does indeed happen; if it does transform the black market for illicit drugs towards what we see today of alcohol and tobacco, I am happy. Their power would dwarf in comparison to what organized crime is today.
 
I don't know where you live but it his obviously not
1) the Gold Coast, where the whole under current of the city is the reason for the introduction of these laws or
2) any town north of noosa, where you can walk into a pub and be offered a garbage bag of chop chop most Saturday afternoons.

If drugs are legalised, or more likely regulated it will not be the same way alcohol or tobacco are currently. The horse has bolted with these and any government would be unlikely to want to create a carbon copy of the problems they currently present. Drugs will be regulated and taxed so their cost will be high to either cover health costs or discourage kids using them. This opens up a very good reason for a black market, the ability to avoid the taxes or stamp duty and undercut the cost of the legal product, and I'm sure criminal organisations will quite happily fill this void. The difference to now will be it is easier to get away with it as a policeman will hardly care if that spliff you are smoking had a government stamp on it or came from your local bikie down the road.
 
I understand where you are coming from, but I still strongly believe that it will impact the power criminals currently hold.

I would rather pay extra tax and buy the drug from a chemist, than rather run the risks involved with buying drugs from criminals, and I am sure many people are the same. If some people still prefer to engage with criminals and get a cut product and run the risks involved just to avoid some tax, then it will be a niche market that will not resemble what the current market looks like today.

I am a law abiding citizen and have never been involved with this type of stuff, but I have a few friends who were and back in my younger years I have seen first hand what it is about. I can tell you that the underworld of drug use and groups of people who see themselves as "criminals" is just a massive market of drugs for sale. So many people do it and are connected to each other. Who do you think imports or produces this stuff on a mass production scale? Teenagers or young men who are drug users and get involved with the culture, or organized crime?

Take away the black market and turn it into a niche market, and these young men and teenagers will also be out of business along with organized crime. I still can not see ordinary people who enjoy using drugs, attempt to get a cheaper bargain by associating with hard criminals when they could buy it pure for a little more at the local chemist. Not in any large scale that will still be worth billions.
 
Why would the products criminals sell be cut? Market forces would mean they would have to sell a similar or even better product to compete. It's basic economics. Like you say why buy shit if you can get it pure from the chemist? For them to compete they need to provide something better, and that would be the same product less the tax or duty. It might mean their profit margin would be slimmer than today but I doubt they will suddenly run at a loss.
 
Do you really expect they will be able to produce the same quality synthetic drugs as the Government? It seems pretty fucking unrealistic that they could really rival the scale it would be done on in a lot of ways, and it would make their product prohibitively expensive, in some cases they may have trouble producing shit of similar quality. Drugs like heroin and cocaine need big fields of plants, I don't really see how they would get away with it. They could probably continue to have a small hand in dealing methamphetamine and cannabis, I don't see them keeping up with MDMA, synthetic opioids, heroin, cocaine, LSD or a plethora of other drugs. It just seems unrealistic to me.

Also, I think it has to be acknowledged how accessible and easy drugs have made organised crime, especially in the internet age, pretty much anyone can set themselves up with some dope and move it and be making some pretty decent coin in a short space of time. In my view drugs certainly created the perception that crime was actually easy and made it seem attractive to people who it otherwise wouldn't be. I really don't think a lot of people would be interested in joining criminal gangs if they knew they had to walk into premises with CCTV and make threats, start fights, etc. to get paid as opposed to peddling some dope in the shadows. I also think in a lot of cases there is a gradual indoctrination into harder crimes that would not have opportunity to take place if people were not lured to the lifestyle with the promise of easy cash through drug sales.

Of course, there will always be those who engage in extortion rackets and other forms of organised crime, but this is going on any way, there is a likelihood that activities like this would experience a slight increase immediately following drugs being made legal, but I don't think it would be a lasting trend. The fact is, extortion actually has a victim, someone who doesn't want to be part of the illegal transaction, that makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to police than things like drugs where the seller and purchaser want the transaction to stay under the radar. I think it is also a given that organised crime groups are probably engaging in about as much of this kind of activity as they can get away with already, why wouldn't they? It is just extra money. They probably would take slightly more risks and go for extra targets if they lost a majority of their income through legal drugs, but really that will just make them easier for police to catch.

Organised crime is never going away, ever, period, in my opinion any way, still, it seems a bit pointless and foolish to try and argue that if criminal gangs lost a majority of their income that this would not be a great blow to them and reduce their power and influence significantly over time.
 
I don't even know where to begin with this. As an American, well, I just can't stop laughing.

First off, "bikie" roflmao.... Hahahah.... Too fucking funny, did this name come from the general public out of disrespect or is this hilarious misnomer actually what they want t be called?

Secondly, why did it take 30 years for the American trend to make it there? Did it travel by boat and get lost?

Thirdly, they don't even ride their beloved bike-eeeeees ... Uh what

Fourth, on their patch "original gangster".... Ah, no... Could you be more ironic

And last, but surely not least, whoever thought people would take mad max/road warrior so seriously


If I had my own bikie gang I would be "the spin class bandits" (only Americans will get that)
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure everyone knows what spin classes are. Your a dick head. Go 'murica!!!
 
And yes, we have had outlaw motorcycle gangs in Australia for the last 30 years, life does exist outside of America.
 
I wonder if those not familiar with the term "bikies" would go up to an outlaw motorcycle gang member and point, laugh and say "haha, bikie, haha". It seems odd to me that a simple name change can change one's opinion of a group of people. It's interesting, I've read American's laugh at the term "bikies" more than once on Bluelight. I wonder why this is the case. No matter what you call a group or people that are all over the world, it shouldn't change your attitude towards them.

Would a rich white boy laugh if I thought the term "ghetto" was funny since we don't really have them in Australia? I can't think of many examples that suit, but I still find it very strange.
 
Do you really expect they will be able to produce the same quality synthetic drugs as the Government? It seems pretty fucking unrealistic that they could really rival the scale it would be done on in a lot of ways, and it would make their product prohibitively expensive, in some cases they may have trouble producing shit of similar quality. Drugs like heroin and cocaine need big fields of plants, I don't really see how they would get away with it. They could probably continue to have a small hand in dealing methamphetamine and cannabis, I don't see them keeping up with MDMA, synthetic opioids, heroin, cocaine, LSD or a plethora of other drugs. It just seems unrealistic to me.

Also, I think it has to be acknowledged how accessible and easy drugs have made organised crime, especially in the internet age, pretty much anyone can set themselves up with some dope and move it and be making some pretty decent coin in a short space of time. In my view drugs certainly created the perception that crime was actually easy and made it seem attractive to people who it otherwise wouldn't be. I really don't think a lot of people would be interested in joining criminal gangs if they knew they had to walk into premises with CCTV and make threats, start fights, etc. to get paid as opposed to peddling some dope in the shadows. I also think in a lot of cases there is a gradual indoctrination into harder crimes that would not have opportunity to take place if people were not lured to the lifestyle with the promise of easy cash through drug sales.

Of course, there will always be those who engage in extortion rackets and other forms of organised crime, but this is going on any way, there is a likelihood that activities like this would experience a slight increase immediately following drugs being made legal, but I don't think it would be a lasting trend. The fact is, extortion actually has a victim, someone who doesn't want to be part of the illegal transaction, that makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to police than things like drugs where the seller and purchaser want the transaction to stay under the radar. I think it is also a given that organised crime groups are probably engaging in about as much of this kind of activity as they can get away with already, why wouldn't they? It is just extra money. They probably would take slightly more risks and go for extra targets if they lost a majority of their income through legal drugs, but really that will just make them easier for police to catch.

Organised crime is never going away, ever, period, in my opinion any way, still, it seems a bit pointless and foolish to try and argue that if criminal gangs lost a majority of their income that this would not be a great blow to them and reduce their power and influence significantly over time.

Took the words right from my mouth. Could not of said it better myself.

Also, if people are in doubt that people aren't willing to payer a higher price for quality product and that the majority of drug users who are not criminals would rather buy lower quality products along with the plethora of dangers that associating with hardened criminals involve, just to save a few bucks, have a look at the online drug marketplace, more notably the late Silk Road 1.0. I do not know about you guys, but the drugs prices on that site was over the average price paid on the street on almost every drug. I have also read that the price hikes on Silk Road was not only in Australia, but experienced by people all around the world. Still though, it was a great success because the product were generally of higher grade, along with the avoidance of shady figures. People paid more and justified it in these terms...
 
^ the *perception of avoiding shady figures. ;)
Just that these ones were so shadowy you couldn't see who they were at all! Not disagreeing with your point though.
Here's another example, though; synthetic cannnabinoids (not sure the appropriate term - cannibomimetics or something? I might have made that up).


I have witnessed so many people buying that stuff due to it's constant availability, general absence of droughts, except for various legal cat/mouse crap.
Anyway, most people paid about the same (I think? Maybe more in some cases) for a product that most people I know say was inferior to cannabis, as well as being chems essentially untested on humans on a bunch of herbs that could be causing uknown damage when smoked.
But just walking into stores for 5 minutes to browse, i would watch a steady stream of customers coming in to the shop to buy this stuff. The questions asked about the product gave me the impression very few had done the slightest reading on what they were purchasing.


Now, saying that it seemed a bit creepy to me is beside the point - but if people are so desperate to get away from the shit they may have to contend with when buying a bit of weed, be it scary dealers, droughts/shortages, dodgy situations, police risks etc) - in this case people in Australia seem to be proving that they'll pay a premium (black market $ at least) for gear of questionable quality, consistency of ingredients, safety and so fourth.
They'll make that leap without the stuff even being very good, from most reports I've heard.
(Of course, my example overlooks the other reason for this popularity of 'synthetic weed' is the drug testing angle, but that isn't a topic for discussion here).

What I'm getting at though, is a lot of punters will jump at the chance to obtain drugs in a nontraditional way be it the example suggested by teological above me, or the phenomena of "legal highs" stores/stalls in Australia.
We don't have a very sophisticated drug-taking market IMO compared to some other western countries (parts of North America and Europe are leading the way on this) but it is an indication for how this market seems to behave - a fascinating thing socially, as it has always been practically invisible except to people involved in the business (working in it or attempting to enforce it) - but still full of secrets and myths.
I can only see a black market (other than one of concenience - there are all kinds of "cash economies" operating on in this country, and probably always will - the GST did not stop the untaxed, cash economy) existing for drugs that are not well catered for in any hypothetical legalisation situation. That pharma-grade stuff isn't the same as what was sold as that substance previously? Maybe then, but I can't see many advantages that within the bike gang's repertoire.


The US/Australian "bikie" thing is funny.
Though the culture evolved from a bunch of disenfranchised men and boys; many returned WWII soldiers, or children of the First World War, many growing up without fathers.

Living in a society that lacked the structure and camaraderie the armed forces provided, and using a similar social structure of the street gangs of urban poor neighbourhoods, gangs like the Hell's Angels seem to offer their members a sense of belonging, power and a certain kind of respect or notoriety they lacked in their lives on the fringes of postwar America.

Following a huge deal of media interest, counterculture idolisation (at a certain point, in the earlyish days) and the development of "chapters" and similar gangs across the world.
When "outlaw motorcycle gangs" and their members/associates etc came to Australia, we Aussies still had a fully functioning national slang 'dialect' (that was far less homogenous than the one that operates in today's digital world, which is far more international and Americanised).

So, when they popped up over here, outlaw bikers became "bikies"
Other, non gang-related motorcyclists are known as "bikers".
Unlike in the US, we have a word describing both the outlaws and your everyday motorcyclist (without having to use too many syllables; we're a laconic lot, apparently...) whereas I believe "biker" can mean either in the US?
A bit like "surfie" is a bit of a put-down, unlike "surfer".
Just the intricacies of how Australians abbreviate our words, and the status implied with each variation. Interesting and slightly weird.

I gather that "biker gangs" are viewed with a bit of derision by most people in the states. Like almost something cute, or a relic from the post-war years and the 60s, while other forms of organised criminals or subcultures are much more feared, respected of revered.
For whatever reason, things are different here.

Maybe it's the good print bikies offer the press, or the fact that it seems most of the gun battles taking place in Australia are outlaw bike gang related; again - very different picture in America.
Two very different societies with very different underworlds - but I wouldn't underestimate the role of the mass media in romanticising "bikies" here.
Snicker all you like, the yanks started this shit ;)
 
Last edited:
This is also the country that romanticises murderers and low life's like Ned Kelly, Carl Williams and Chopper Reed.
 
I agree with theological and drug_mentor
There is no way organised crime groups (any) could compete with the government for price and purity of any illegal drug. If The government decided to legalise (let's say cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and MDMA) and start manufacturing them for sale, they would produce a final product of higher quality and a lot cheaper even with stricter regulations.

Organised crime cannot compete against a government because a government can import all the precursors/chemicals needed in large amounts with no risk, no issues with transit etc. a gov have access to many more chemists and labs and equipment, and they can buy and produce the product in much higher quantities, and last but defineatly not least a government has tax payers and can introduce subsidises... Like how our health system works currently, most medication is cheaper than what it should be because of governemnt(tax payer) subsidies.
 
Last edited:
Yeah they are all good points, but can anyone really see any government here allowing the production and distribution/sale of those current illegal drugs? We aren't just talking about weed (which they wont consider legalising either) but things like MDMA, LSD, heroin, cocaine etc etc. I know it's an interesting topic, but does anyone really think any government (here) would allow that to take place? I just can't see it. I think they'd rather keep going at it the way they have been, making/keeping it all illegal, and at the same time try to clamp down on OMCG's and drug importations and hydro houses and larger outdoor crops.

So, when they popped up over here, outlaw bikers became "bikies"
Other, non gang-related motorcyclists are known as "bikers".
Unlike in the US, we have a word describing both the outlaws and your everyday motorcyclist (without having to use too many syllables; we're a laconic lot, apparently...) whereas I believe "biker" can mean either in the US?
A bit like "surfie" is a bit of a put-down, unlike "surfer".
Just the intricacies of how Australians abbreviate our words, and the status implied with each variation. Interesting and slightly weird.

Reminds me of sons of anarchy where the leader looks like a surfer.
 
I can not see this country (AUS) legalizing anything either. I mean, they still can not get their heads around weed for god's sake. But each and every time I see those top police officers talking about getting "real" about stopping crime I feel like punching the screen and ringing his neck...there are so many ways that are more effective at stopping crime than simply going hard at them and arresting/bullying them around. Obviously he wants to keep his job secure, and legalizing drugs would undermine that...so on with hard headedness.

I can see it happening one day though. It is like a liberalization of rights in a way. We do not harm anyone, it is our own hobby. The day will come, it could be ten years, could be one hundred years, heck two hundred years lol, but I am 100% certain the day will come.
 
Top