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The Big & Dandy ++++ Thread

4) We are all the same force of consciousness experiencing itself subjectively in a great many ways all at once.

My 2C-E trip was far, far more intense and terrifying. I put mushrooms first just because it was my first trip, really, and it was beautiful in a more perfect and manageable way. It was extremely mentally intense but physically, if I took the same amount today, I'd probably at +2. I took the most away from it... it's been the one psychedelic experience I have always thought of as perfect. It still influences me the most of any experience I've ever had. I think a large part of that was that it was my first trip ever. But also, mushrooms feel extremely spiritual to me, whereas 2C-E was entirely logical. At the time I wrote that report, I was coming up, peaking, and coming down from the trip, and then I summarized it the morning after, so some of what I say in there doesn't really still apply. For example, I wouldn't say I respect 2C-E more than mushrooms now. Actually given my experience with phenethylamines, especially 2Cs, I fear mushrooms more these days. It's just that at the time, I was absolutely blown away.

Another example of something I'd change if I re-wrote that 2C-E report today is the whole void vs. lifeforce thing. After a lot of integration and more tripping, and ketamine, I'm more inclined to think that my ego death was just far more complete on 2C-E. My mushroom trip was just heavy ego dissolution but far from death. It was as if "I" shrunk down to an insignificant size but I was still there, and the rest of the collective experience of the universe was also there for me to access. I felt very whole and complete and satisfying. 2C-E brought me farther than that, to where I feel as if I was experiencing raw existence as the universal force of consciousness, but to the point where I was on the brink of losing all sense of subjective experience rather than being immersed in the sea of collective experience, which left this gaping void that felt really, really frightening. But I believe they were both showing me the same thing from a different angle.

Yeah, I've had my most difficult trip(s) by far on mushrooms as well, but that was years ago now, and due to insecurities I no longer have. I never wrote those up, though, unfortunately.

If you want to read more of my trip reports, most of them are here on my Erowid author page (which goes by a different name. I'm seeing if they can change it): http://www.erowid.org/experiences/e...tle=&AuthorSearch=&A1=188&Lang=&Group=-1&Str=
 
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vegan said:
people have pointed out in the other thread that a ++++ doesn't necessarily imply being "really fucked up" or even ego loss

personally, the shulguin scale annoys me
i find it very incomplete


I agree... that's why I rarely-to-never use it. Yeah, I tend to think of ++++'s as meaning ego-loss, for some reason, and otherwise can't really find much of a difference between what a +++ and a ++++ are supposed to be. 8(
 
I hit it once . and never want to go back , the next day i packed my bags from the world of psycs and left without looking back .

I had a friend who wanted to try shrooms for the first time so i agreed , and i bought 4 grams of shrooms for myself , this was standard for me . And to top it off i had a whole glass of orange juice to settle it right in nice and good . Within what seemed like 20 mins i was starting to get the beginning quirks of the impending shroom world . He was taking his time and didnt notice that i had eaten all mine . he did around 2 or 2.5 .

For some reason he found it funny to agitate me and try tripping me out . I told him to stop but he found it just too funny. anyway i tried to brush it off , but the shit was just building WAAAAAAAAAAAAY to fast , and i remembered i needed to get somewhere comfortable or else i was gonna go scizoid . So i went outside for some air , and shit was soooo different i couldnt even comprehend where i was . the grass had taken on a rainbow effect , EVERYTHING had an aura to it . lights were to fucked and only came through as blobs of streaming stars . building around me were set waaay back in the background , apartments buildings were waving back and fortha lil , so i freaked out and called my two friends to come pick me up . Any logical thought process was out the window , and reality meant shit all to me . About 20 mins after calling my friends i called back and had no recollection of calling them before . i get home and it calmed down but shit was just waaay to insane , to the point of where i thought of killing myself .

My body had turned into a wad of cookie dough and i felt soo spaced out that i couldnt even speak . Every problem in my life came bubbling to the surface and i tore it apart like i was performing an autopsy on them . Reality had folds upon folds upon folds of dimensions . I wasnt alive . i was merley matter being shifted around by unknown forces . and then after about 2 1/2 hrs which felt like a goddamn eternity , i finally started to feel a little bit normal (er) and managed to just fall asleep to some psy goa trance .

Lets just say im retiring for a lil bit lol .
 
VertexShader said:
1.) Everything is cyclic
2.) Life is a dream
3.) Free will doesnt exist

thats about it :)

Mushrooms brought me to that understanding, although I conceived point #3 as "the self doesn't exist" or "will doesn't exist." Free will has too many connotations--you think, so does that mean we're not free? Its actually quite liberating to realize that the "Self" is just a sort of amalgamation, at least the "Self" that we think makes decisions.
 
illuminati boy said:
By definition, it is probably NOT a + + + + experience then. Most people really do not understand what a strong + + + is or that a + + + + is NOT a function of either drug or intensity. You can have a + + + + on tap water or just a really (really!) intense + + + experience on copious amounts of smoked 5-MeO-DMT. Someone who claims to have had something like 1 – 5 + + + + experiences in decades of serious psychedelic research and/or personal work might be believable. Someone claiming to have had + + + + experiences so often as to have lost their mystique is probably less believable. If you doubt this, then look up how many such experiences Shulgin claims to have had over the decades and many hundreds of different ingestions of various compounds.


A + + + + is NOT the 4th plateau or simply a fully dissociative state. It is NOT Level 4 as defined on the Gaeme Scale that is used on some other boards to rate trips. It is what Maslow would consider a ‘peak experience,’ not just a strong peak on your preferred drug. A + + + + is NOT just ego loss or confusion of self-concept / Samadhi with form. There are maybe (maybe) 5 or so people on this board that I would actually take seriously when they say they have had a + + + + experience. That is not to say that any particular person here that has claimed to have had such an experience is lying, but it is to say that the vast majority of them are most likely mistaken. I am not a psychic and I cannot sort out who has or has not had such an experience, but I can certainly see that most people do not really understand the concept as elucidated by Shulgin.

I B

So I'm curious, IB, have you ever had a ++++? I admitted that I've flirted with that precious state of transecendental consciousness, but never truly and fully attained it. It's out there waiting for me.
 
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a big dose of pcp with i.v shots of 1/4 gram of excellent coke every 20 minutes for 4 hours gave me a ++++ :P i was buddha
 
the problem with the ++++ or whatever system you use is that those who say they had a ++++ really dont know what they are talking about (usually) and those who had the experince "cant" talk about it

"You cannot use butterfly language to communicate with caterpillars"

if you could scale those experience, those experience could not exist
 
As IB suggested, a ++++ is, by definition novel and life-changing. With that in mind, it is impossible to "get used" to a ++++ "state".

Also as suggested above, most people think that they have experienced it when what they had, was in fact, a strong +++. For example: A few years ago I wrote a report on Iprocin that I posted here and on erowid. In it I stated that I thought I may have been approaching a ++++. But now, experience has taught me that that was definitely not a ++++.
 
This debate reminds me of the argument about whether or not DXM is a psychedelic or not...a complete mess of semantic nit pickery that drags the mind further away from the actual state of being in the type of experience you are trying to describe in the first place. The problem with words and symbols in particular is that they are all SUPPOSED to mean something. We are generally at the point where a good portion of people are understanding that not only do words mean something, but often times many things. Heck, we are even beginning to understand that cultural influences affect what a word can mean, even things as close as your curent emotional state can influence the meaning a symbol holds in it...now boil that down to the level of an individual, matching words up to an experience that most likely truly defies the human instinct to communicate it. An unspeakable moment that only those who are in it can understand. Anything anyone uses to describe that state is pure fiction. They are telling a story. I rode on a UFO once, but does anyone believe me? No, but because enlightenment is a hot commodity and there's all these sick and sorry vibes in the world, we want to strive for some grail state where we are finally at peace, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, when we start trying to rank these states of being, I truly feel we are missing the mark of the covenant. I just think it creates an extra roadblock along the way. In my mind it is somewhat related to how when I play guitar, the less I am thinking about playing guitar, the better I play. It is that instinct to label that you are trying to move past in the first place...the words that constantly run insidiously in the background as a costant loop of mental chatter, defining the world but always keeping us several steps away from how close we are striving to touch this experience of living.
 
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On the matter of words, I completely agree with you. I am aware that the more I use words, the more I lie.

From a pragmatic point of view though (if I may...), you mention that people are "ranking" experiences. I think this is the major problem with something like "++++" - especially that shulgin did the other plus-signs in order of intensity - this is misleading in that it suggests in itself that it is more intense than what is designated as a +++, when in fact it is not.

The shulgin scale was put in place for a purely research-related attempt at making people, as you suggest catfish, come to some kind of agreement about states that words cannot discribe. How it made its way to mainstream use is beyond me...
 
first time i took some LSD,,,, 3 1/2 bunk ass hits... still did the trick more than any other time...and i have eat a sick amount. also first time i took 2c-i,20mg ...first time i did mdma,1hit...not shrooms though like alot ppl said,,they never get me high enough
 
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Jamshyd said:
On the matter of words, I completely agree with you. I am aware that the more I use words, the more I lie.

From a pragmatic point of view though (if I may...), you mention that people are "ranking" experiences. I think this is the major problem with something like "++++" - especially that shulgin did the other plus-signs in order of intensity - this is misleading in that it suggests in itself that it is more intense than what is designated as a +++, when in fact it is not.

The shulgin scale was put in place for a purely research-related attempt at making people, as you suggest catfish, come to some kind of agreement about states that words cannot discribe. How it made its way to mainstream use is beyond me...

In it's original intended form, I agree with it's use, especially in the context it was created for. I think when people try to use it to compare experiences on such a large scale (ie, the internet and whole world), that it becomes less meaningful, and highly unscientific...
 
2 grams of mushrooms:
I died (my ego that is, but i thought i had died physically aswell), completely forgetting about my existance as "I" and then relived the birth process. I actually physically felt myself coming out of the womb, and then started to remember how to speak and eventually it all came back to me.

18mg of 2c-e

2 hits of LSD.


Im going to have to disagree with vertex shader though.
I still believe in in free will and dont think life is a dream.

A common theme in my ++++ experiences is that it leaves me with a different view of life then i had going into the trip. I end up having long afterglow once the trip is over (sometimes it leaves me happy for months after after the trip, just because i feel like my life has changed for the better from what i learned.
 
Yep yep, a ++++ has nothing to do with losing your ego and dissolving into the universe!

Although that's a pretty common way to go...

A ++++ to me is just a very powerful feeling of connectedness and beauty and perfection all around you. Sometimes this occurs even on light trips when you are pretty clear-headed... or when you're not even on drugs at all!
 
just "it" really, truly and unadulterated. Not a drug dependent state. Only glimpsed. As soon as reflected on, poof, gone! Ah.
 
once on 200µ and once on 300µg

dancing at psytrance on a party, strong mystical experience... knew everything was connected... i could see/read/understand DNA and other secrets of the universe...

i felt love, understanding, peace........


this so called "++++" experience, was possibly the best experience i ever had in my life.. I didn't exist anymore, i didn't think anymore.... i was complete....

after these experiences my life changed fast. i knew there was some sort of GOD/LOVE THING going on in the universe...

needed to know how to get to "god" sober... started finding out there is a spiritual reason society is fucked up...

ended up doing ZA-ZEN/NEO-ADVAITA (buddhism) and loving every breath of it :)

don't know if i will use psychedelics again soon (or ever)

i want to drown in the ocean of love
 
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dunno if they would be considered +4's by Shulgin but ~15mg DOC really got me. alien abduction (not of me) in wireframe..i dont know how much sense that makes but only way to describe it plus other intense visuals. have yet to meet any entities or anything like that (or bad trip for that matter :/)

um, 4 pills, guess like 100mg MDMA apiece - realized a lot of things about humanity, life, and the human existence..all while blacking out randomally dancing on top of a speaker (the deeper realizations came a bit later, just thought id throw the dancing part in there - was rather humurous, id come to and see myself dancing and be like i wonder wtf i was doing for the amount of time i dont remember, apparently still dancing)
 
I love hearing about psychedelic experiences on MDMA! One of the most life-changing molecules I've ever ingested...
 
32-36mg of 4-ace-mipt: was listening to a spasticbeat dj, closed my eyes and was transported into an alex grey painting.

The music had visual representations, and when the sound was delayed, the representation of the sound would be delayed, fading depending on how the delay faded, eg. vol fading would fade brightness (usually to white), frequency cut off caused the colour of the representation to fade to transparent (however that happens?!) stuttered aphex twin style beats produced the most insane creatures visually stuttered according to the stutter gap (i.e. the longer the slinece between the sounds the bigger the gap in the creature) yet the creature was both the solid being i saw and the spaces between it (a him, i thought).

Then I saw people in this soundscape/place/wherever that i swear came from the same place Alex Grey went when he first saw his inspiration. Archtypal beings that acknowledged me with no movement or sound. They were ancient, and had been honoured by our ancient forefoathers, but now lay in wait for us to wake up again. (where the fuck did that come from>?! thats just how i remember it... weird shit man)

I was in a state of pure bliss, but trying to explain this to my friends was impossible, as they would morph into Grey-style people randomly and beams of light would contain a train of hexagons, pentagons and electric colours. This left me with my jaw open in mid conversation and i litterly felt "reset" - i would completely forgot what we were talking about. This didnt go down to well and suddenly i was thrust out of the state i was in with some sharb tounge lashings from the people around me, into one of pure hell - paranoia.

I escaped to the top of a sand dune but after a while someone from another group came to talk to me. Getting past a simple "yeah" or "nah" was, at this stage, impossible, and I was glad when my girlfriend signaled that we had to go.

since then, i have felt odd. i dont know what to make of it. but the archtypes i saw, i met before/

fuck, that sounds loopy
 
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