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☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy Scale / Balance Thread - Part 2.000±

I sent some 0.1mg scales with citylink next day delivery, they arrived 2 working days later and even the steel casing of the balance is dented. Steel! I am very mad.
 
The scale I am looking at currently is

http://www.gorillascales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=332

I'm looking at calibrating .vs. certified weights (and then picking up my own set), and keeping the unit if acceptable, and returning if not. It's about the upper range of what I was willing to spend, but has a level/levelling feet and a windshield). If I'm confident in the unit, I'll then create calibration charts and can start using the balance.

A lot of the balances I've seen are battery operated; others include the option for AC power. Any differences between the two in terms of accuracy or reliability?

thanks

Tom
 
Well I'm not very impressed.

Recieved my gemini-20 clone

The thing never settles. Multiple recalibrations and numbers all over the map.

It came with a 10g calibration weight which looks horribly machined and I have extreme doubts as to it actually being 10g.. but nonetheless, I use it, the screen flashes that its done calibrating and then the numbers go as high as 10.009 and down to 9.996... It seems to settle at zero afterwards, but now and then will jump as high as .007 and then come back down.. with the shield closed even.

I attempted to weigh my 2ci and I managed to lose probably 5mg as it stuck to the little tray provided - not doing that again. According to the scale, the best I could get it to read I only have 220mg~ of substance vs the 250 I should have recieved - theres some stuck to the bag but certainly not 30mg. But I am questioning the scale now really.

Multiple recalibrations and the weight still jumps around even when the calibrated weight is put on. The tray itself bounces between 2.535 to 2.545 and settles around 2.54 for a bit while jumping 1-2mg either way.

Batteries are new and there isnt any 'wind' or anything of the sort in the room I am using it in. Ugh.

I guess I'll be acquiring that gempro250 eventually then.. I guess for 20$ I can't really complain but I figured it woudlnt be this bad.. I've got as much variation as a decent 2c-e trip for some people, god damn.
 
lmao wow

putting the 10g weight on the scale has bounced from 10.0 up to 1.012 and down to 9.986 now...

got o calibrate mode, put 10g weight on, finishes calibrating, weight read instantly skyrockets to 1.01..

what in the fuck
 
Could anyone confirm to me what a kutcorner zigzag or a rizla silver rolling paper weighs for me?

zigzag ~.040

rizla ~.036

leaving the little tray on, then taring, and then calibrating as seemed to lead to more accuracy.. this is in contrast to the advice to tare without the tray on. I think it needs some weight on in order to get a better reading. having more luck now.
 
Unless a scale is strictly intended for use as a temporary stopgap, one should not purchase a scale that costs less than approximately $200. Even scales in that price range are relatively modest strain-gauge ones, and therefore not ideally precise or responsive. Nevertheless, if one has enough money to purchase research chemicals on a regular or even fairly regular basis, then one certainly has enough money to purchase a scale that costs no less than $200. If calibration weights are required, middle-of-the-road strain-gauge scales are well calibrated with F1 weights, while high-end strain-gauge and most force-restore scales are well calibrated with E2 weights. That will cost approximately an additional $50-200, depending on the rating and mass of the weight. Lastly, such weights should never be touched with bare hands -- a clean anti-static cloth or pair of gloves is essential -- and they should never leave their protective case unless in use.
 
That's all good an well but I think we have to be realistic - most people will not afford to spend so much on a good set of scales, and the vast majority get away with this. I had a set which I bought for $100 which lasted me until I got a real set and I really loved them. They gave 0.000 below 6mg but otherwise they were pretty much infallible. Having experienced using a 0.1mg set though, I cannot recommend them enough, I LOVE having that extra decimal point.
 
Research chemicals are dirt cheap. The argument if one has enough money is a joke.

I somewhat agree but its better than nothing, and im personally not going to spend in excess of 400$ atleast not any time soon.

Thats literally the equivalent of like 4g of 2ce, enough to last me a lifetime

No one wants to admit it but id wager more than half the pd board eyes their shit out
 
infantannihilator said:
It's better than nothing, and I'm not going to spend in excess of $400 any time soon.
Click to expand...

Then what was the reason for posts numbers 585 and 586? A shamanic dance won't make your scale perform any better. You get what you pay for. The bottom line is that one can find a half-decent new scale for $150-300, and such a scale will often come with a calibration weight (F1 or F2) and other goodies. As I pointed out earlier, the scale that you bought should only be used as a temporary stopgap. "It's better than nothing" but don't whine if it does not perform to your expectations. Get real.
 
lamanogaucha said:
Then what was the reason for posts numbers 585 and 586? A shamanic dance won't make your scale perform any better. You get what you pay for. The bottom line is that one can find a half-decent new scale for $150-300, and such a scale will often come with a calibration weight (F1 or F2) and other goodies. As I pointed out earlier, the scale that you bought should only be used as a temporary stopgap. "It's better than nothing" but don't whine if it does not perform to your expectations. Get real.
Click to expand...

Well as I said once I got it working, I had followed advice in this thread to tare the scale with the tray off, then apply the tray (so the scale read something like 2.504g) and do a little math to allow a more accurate reading (supposedly). I also calibrated it without the tray on, placing the weight where the tray sits. After a little tinkering, I noticed that the tray must be left on, the scale needs to have some weight on it when tared, including when it is calibrated. Doing so has produced numbers within the +/-1mg range. I read the majority of the thread, I've done my homework, the particular scale in question was recommended by several members including moderators as 'the best cheapy scale, and just as good as those in the $100+ range' - so when I was getting greater than a .01g walk, it struck me terribly wrong and in stark contrast to every piece of advice I read in this thread.

Its not perfect, I concede. As of this moment, its meeting my expectations for what it is, it did not in those posts you referenced due to my own user error based on advice I had read. I will probably purchase a true 10g calibration weight in the future because I'm certain the calibration weight itself has to be off a few mg one way or the other. It would probably be even better to get something like a 10mg just to see where the scale is at and use that error average as a reference. Its pretty well accepted (from what I have read) that you cannot weigh out <20mg very accurately on any .001g scale, even your $150-300 ones. There is supposedly very little difference until you get into true balance territory.

I realize 2mg can be a major difference between a strong trip and really strong trip, but lets be real, ANY .001g scale can be off by 2mg throughout its whole range, even at higher weights. So the solution: weight out a larger quantity 50mg+, dilute it in a solution and volumetrically dose to get your 16mg doses. The 2mg error is spread out over the larger quantity and the error is diminished. I know I can't weigh out 10mg on this scale and have it be accurate. I know I can't rely on that with even a $300 scale.

This is for my own personal use, I'm not pushing shit, and if I weigh out 100mg and split it volumetrically and decide for myself "whoa 16mg was way too much" but in reality its actually 18mg, so what, Ill lower the dose the next time and it will be consistent through the batch and for my own physiology. This is why we start low when we dose, to gauge our personal reaction. Some people go off their fucking rocker taking 10mg of 2c-e and others report mild trips at 20mg.. In instances like that, does the 2mg error really make all that much of a difference? Its all relative.. There are a number of factors that come into play, the scale being one of them, individual physiology, tolerance, and so on and so forth.

I've done my homework, and I'm not ignorant to think that any scale, no matter its expense is 100% foolproof, nor am I ignorant to assume that the dose for me is going to be anything like anyone else's.
 
Honestly I think you might have better luck just getting a new one. The gemini-20 style scales are far from perfect but they are adequate and stable above 20mg. You seem to have a dud set or are under artificial gravity.
 
infantannihilator said:
Research chemicals are dirt cheap. The argument if one has enough money is a joke.

I somewhat agree but its better than nothing, and im personally not going to spend in excess of 400$ atleast not any time soon.

Thats literally the equivalent of like 4g of 2ce, enough to last me a lifetime

No one wants to admit it but id wager more than half the pd board eyes their shit out
Click to expand...

Trips to the ER are way more expensive than a decent scale, but people on this board have trouble comprehending this a lot.

The Tanita 1230s at 0.002 mg accuracy are good -- I can vouch for them because I tried mine against a $20,000 balance I also own. They cost less than $200.

Then, use liquid dosage to ensure a high amount of accuracy. Remember that most tryptamines are more stable in acidic solutions than basic ones. I haven't tried it, but I'd guess they store pretty well in a freezer in an acetic acid buffer.
 
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Transform said:
Honestly I think you might have better luck just getting a new one. The gemini-20 style scales are far from perfect but they are adequate and stable above 20mg. You seem to have a dud set or are under artificial gravity.
Click to expand...

Its working fine now since i did what i did. Its not walking anymore, maybe one or two mg and it settles. Seems adequate for me. I made that other thread about the zigzag to get an idea of my reading was way off and it was spot on.

Nuke: trips to the ER over a 2mg error? Lol please. I get the nature of HR but your scare tactics are completely absurd. If being off on my intended 2cx dose or tryp dose by even as much as 5mg would land me in the hospital then pretty much 99% of drug users would be permanently hospitalized.

Some of you guys are fucking ridiculous. It doesnt need to be THAT perfect of a measurement when you factor in the plethora of other variables.
 
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infantannihilator said:
Its working fine now since i did what i did. Its not walking anymore, maybe one or two mg and it settles. Seems adequate for me. I made that other thread about the zigzag to get an idea of my reading was way off and it was spot on.

Nuke: trips to the ER over a 2mg error? Lol please. I get the nature of HR but your scare tactics are completely absurd. If being off on my intended 2cx dose or tryp dose by even as much as 5mg would land me in the hospital then pretty much 99% of drug users would be permanently hospitalized.

Some of you guys are fucking ridiculous. It doesnt need to be THAT perfect of a measurement when you factor in the plethora of other variables.
Click to expand...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm a lab tech. Really. So I should just ignore my education and experience when it comes to weighing RC's? (and no you didn't say that). A 2 mg error landing you in the hospital....yes. I've got 5-MeO-MiPT. Given my health concerns I was advised to take no more than 2 mg first time. Purchased what is supposedly 100 mg. Eyeball it? No fucking way. I want my first dose to be 2.0 +/- 0.2 mg. And it will be.

I eyeball (and subsequently weigh) 50 to 100 samples at a time at work. Aiming for 30 mg. Get 26-34mg. When trying to eyeball weigh 10 mg at work, it's all over the fucking map. 6-14 mg (go ahead, measure out 100 piles of flour, estimating them to be 10 mg, and then weigh them....please go ahead and do that exercise; it will quickly disabuse you of the notion that some of use are fucking ridiculous).

It s because of the other (largely unknown) variables that people should be precise.

Tom
 
Thomas Davie said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm a lab tech. Really. So I should just ignore my education and experience when it comes to weighing RC's? (and no you didn't say that). A 2 mg error landing you in the hospital....yes. I've got 5-MeO-MiPT. Given my health concerns I was advised to take no more than 2 mg first time. Purchased what is supposedly 100 mg. Eyeball it? No fucking way. I want my first dose to be 2.0 +/- 0.2 mg. And it will be.

I eyeball (and subsequently weigh) 50 to 100 samples at a time at work. Aiming for 30 mg. Get 26-34mg. When trying to eyeball weigh 10 mg at work, it's all over the fucking map. 6-14 mg (go ahead, measure out 100 piles of flour, estimating them to be 10 mg, and then weigh them....please go ahead and do that exercise; it will quickly disabuse you of the notion that some of use are fucking ridiculous).

It s because of the other (largely unknown) variables that people should be precise.

Tom
Click to expand...

Big deal, you're a labtech, have a cookie dude. You're right I didn't say that so why bring it up?

First of all no one said ANYTHING about eyeballing. No fucking shit you can't eyeball out an accurate milligram or two milligrams, of course you're going to be off. Where in the hell did I mention I was going to eyeball?

Second, why in the fuck would I try to weigh out 2mg on anything but a full out lab grade submilligram analytical balance? Id be retarded to try to on even a real nice $500 .001g scale, equipped with all the F1 calibration weights I could muster. Why? Because the scale is only accurate to +/-.001 and no matter how accurate the damn thing is at its lower end, that 1mg tolerance is way too much. Your example is absolutely retarded, I'm sorry.
Know what I would do if I needed to measure out 2mg with a +/-.2mg tolerance? I'd measure out 20mg and dissolve it in a volume of liquid and then divide the liquid into 10. Bam. 2mg +/- .2mg, assuming the scale is out +/-2mg. Don't trust 20mg? Weigh out 40mg then and bam your error is even smaller. Hey, I did that with a $40 scale!

I already said, I know my scale begins to grossly lose accuracy at significantly small doses. No its not the best scale, but it will do. Its 100000x better than eyeballing.

All I am saying is that any .001g scale is only accurate at best to +/-.001 - the more expensive the scale, the better that accuracy will be throughout its entire range. I acknowledge my cheapy scale cannot measure 2mg for me, nor would I even try. However, it can manage to be fairly accurate above 20mg measurements, as has been proven by several tests you can find online. If you want even better accuracy you need a submilligram balance. Im not a labtech and truthfully I will more than likely never have one.

What is ridiculous is the notion that you need to be accurate down to the submilligram when you're taking something like a 16mg dose. Even then, if I need to get lower, volumetric dosing provides a simple, cheap and easy method of getting super accurate doses and minimizing your error by a large degree. I can measure out 100ug of an NBOMe with less than 10ug error in this manner. The more substance used initially, the lower that error gets. Amazing.

Be smart and learn the thresholds of the drugs your taking, learn the dose/response curve and appropriately utilize the measurement sources you have available. Yeah, a very sweet expensive balance would be awesome to have, would save me the enormous hassle of diluting a substance and using a syringe to measure it out (sarcasm).
 
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http://www.kern-sohn.com/lshop,show...42,TAB|-|-|42,6,Tshowrub--produkte.41.42,.htm

i bought this one (actually two: for me and for a friend)
Even if the brand is known (they produce lab equipment as well) I cant really reccomend it. It drifts as hell and the tray is too big (if i close the lid it will push on the tray :|)

I've got access to a 3d printing machine, so I'll be printing a smaller tray and fix at least this problem (maybe I'll also be able to reduce the drifting if I weight with the lid closed), but I really cannot recommend it.
 
I should point out that with a proper balance the maximum linearity drift does not apply to its entire range (as claimed by infantannihilator in post #593). With a good balance, the maximum drift almost always applies to the outer edges of its range only. For example, if a milligram balance has a linearity rating of +/- 2mg, then a reading on the lower or upper extremes of its range could be off by up to 2mg; meanwhile, a reading that is not on the outermost boundaries of its range will be off by much less, typically no more than 1mg, and often less than that (i.e. one can be confident that the reading is quite correct). In other words, as one gets closer to the center of a proper balance's range, the more accurate the reading will be. Only poor balances have a maximum linearity drift that is essentially uniform throughout its entire range (and sometimes the maximum drift will exceed the often bogus specifications).

Another thing that must be mentioned is the issue of repeatability. With bottom drawer balances, good repeatability is basically non-existent, and that is why few (if any) such balances include a repeatability rating in its specification sheet.

There are other things to consider, such as stability, draft shield type (if any), what peripherals can one connect to it (if any), material quality, durability, warranty, servicing options, customer service, etc...

:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0 :)
 
I'd just like to apologize for coming across as a bit of a harsh asshole. It's just that I take offense to the notion that I am entirely blind as an infant (lol) and have not put any thought into my actions and the way I have chosen to undertake them. I did not make anything up, everything I've learned towards the effect of proper dosing was gleaned from this very thread, and I feel like I was talking to a brick wall, my words entirely being ignored when I am countered with examples of eyeing stuff out after having talked about the readability in scale error as well as my methods to mitigate these errors as much as possible even with a cheap scale. Its akin to performing basic calculus by hand and being you told to have to use tool like maple - both get the job done and will produce identical or near identical results, maple giving you a little more frill - but then being lambasted about not knowing how to properly perform the basics of bedmas (pedmas, pemdas, whatever you learned in your state/country).

I just felt like I was taken to be entirely ignorant, when in fact I have meticulously researched and made sure I am doing everything in my power to be as safe as I possibly can, within my currently limited budget and within the bounds of the substances I intend to take.

Sorry, friends.
 
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