Lysergamides The Big & Dandy Non-LSD Ergoloids Blotter Thread

[IamMe90]

I don't think any "foreign contaminants" are going to be active in LSD-like doses. In which case, impure LSD would simply mean less LSD. I don't think that's the cause of your physical oddities.

 

[bluedolphin]

I can certainly tell the difference between really pure LSD and some low-grade stuff. I'll still eat the low grade stuff, cuz, usually it isn't half bad.

But fresh and white and fluffy crystals are going to give you a kinder ride. There's a lot of value in amber and silver, I've had great trips off that stuff. The come-up might be less compared to floating upwards on a cloud, though. I'll take it either way, as long as it's real.

 

[WatMyConditionIsIn]

first time with cid i felt like there was REAL corrosive acid in my veins (like OP, actually FELT pain , or at least believed i was in pain. imagined or not, i can remember that it felt NASTY as fuck. i had taken ALOT for my first time, i made the classic mistake of eating 2 and then expecting to be fully up in an hr or 2 (my only other psych by then was mushrooms), so 3 hrs in im just seein light traccers i take the other 3... WHAM!!! magic fuckin carpet ride) But I dont ever recall feeling that gross except for my first time. and my first 2 dozen trips were from the same batch from the same guy with between 3-8 tabs per trip and on a weekly basis. im assuming that dirty (adulturated? poorly synthed?)cid is possible but rare. i doubt some synth byproduct could end up on paper tabs in enough quantities 2 cause any physical effects. remember that it is LSD... so your brain will come up with crazy physical symptoms that arent real. ive had
many widely varying weird and wild sensations that FELT physical but were only present during a single trip, or only during a certain part of a trip. but they never reoccured so its just your brain fuckin with you cause you fed the poor bastard LSD!?!?!? but i will never forget when my veins were pumping hydrochloric acid for several hours... I can feel my arms burning on the INSIDE if i concentrate on how terrible it FELT at the time. but i never really believed taht it was caused by "dirty" acid.

 

[IamMe90]

I can certainly tell the difference between really pure LSD and some low-grade stuff. I'll still eat the low grade stuff, cuz, usually it isn't half bad.

But fresh and white and fluffy crystals are going to give you a kinder ride. There's a lot of value in amber and silver, I've had great trips off that stuff. The come-up might be less compared to floating upwards on a cloud, though. I'll take it either way, as long as it's real.

Why would a purer LSD batch give you a kinder ride? It seems to me that the only qualitative differences between impure LSD and potent LSD should be the qualitative differences present at differing dosages. What kind of synth impurity or byproduct is going to be active at the sub-microgram range? (Remember that the impurity is going to be in significantly less quantity than the LSD, if it was a 70% pure synth you've got 30% of byproduct (assuming it is only one byproduct) which is going to be 30ug in a blotter.) I don't know of any such compound that is going to give such noticeable effects at such miniscule doses, but I could be wrong.

 

[psood0nym]

Why would a purer LSD batch give you a kinder ride? It seems to me that the only qualitative differences between impure LSD and potent LSD should be the qualitative differences present at differing dosages. What kind of synth impurity or byproduct is going to be active at the sub-microgram range? (Remember that the impurity is going to be in significantly less quantity than the LSD, if it was a 70% pure synth you've got 30% of byproduct (assuming it is only one byproduct) which is going to be 30ug in a blotter.) I don't know of any such compound that is going to give such noticeable effects at such miniscule doses, but I could be wrong.

Exactly. Yet I can't help thinking we are flirting with the impure chemical = impure experience debate all over again. One would think it's all about the active range of the quantities of the intended chemical, such that for a highly psychoactively potent chemical like LSD any synthesis leftovers would be of negligible quantity in the final product. Still, there's the argument that because you're synthing a highly potent ergoloid you might "accidentally" synth highly potent active non-LSD ergoloids alongside it, or active precursors remain, and those will make the final product "dirty" in its subjective effect. I've not seen evidence that this is happening, but that argument is out there.

In my view, the stories on Erowid about chemists laying different blotter prints with the exact same LSD solution where their customers come back and emphatically exclaim "print X was so much more lucid man" or "print Y had such a body load" but they're in fact talking about the exact same synth laid on different prints without knowing it tells a huge chunk of this story with LSD (psychological/environmental factors play a big role). Show me an expected synthesis byproduct of LSD synthesis that is powerfully active in the single-digit or low two-digit microgram range. I suppose you can always reserve the argument that "the impurities are not psychoactive in that range in isolation yet maybe they have indirect pharmacological interactions in the brain that change the subjective experience of LSD," but how likely is that? You could say, "well, drugs like MAOIs don't seem to have direct effects of their own yet they have powerful indirect pharmacological action in terms of ultimate subjective experience" but, still, how likely is it that unintended LSD synthesis byproducts just happen to have an effect in this same vein? I really don't know, but it doesn't seem plausible, and mere possibility does not make for a compelling counterpoint.

Yet, at the same time, there's products like 4-MeO-PCP, which require fairly high doses and contain active impurities like PCC as synthesis byproducts. With 4-MeO-PCP a common dose of an impure synth could result in ingesting substantial quantities of the active impurity PCC. From what I can tell PCC really is a potent and active unintended byproduct of 4-MeO-PCP synthesis and it very well could influence the subjective effects of your 4-MeO-PCP trip through its own independent action.

Perfectly rational understandings of what's happening get inextricably tangled up with personal impressions and anecdotes in the drug culture and I don't think the resulting cluster fuck of misinterpretation will ever go away (and I'm not saying I'm innocent of this same ignorance -- I'm just aware of it).

 

[Ismene]

I think external factors are far more relevant than imaginary ideas that the brain/body can detect the difference between 84% "pure" LSD and "92%" pure LSD. Your body simply isn't that sensitive. And that's assuming that these alleged "impurities" are also psychoactive drugs active at even smaller doses than LSD.

If you take the "purest" LSD in a filthy room surrounded by shitten underpants you're likely to have a "dirty" trip. If you take the most "impure" LSD beside a waterfall in the forest on a sunny day you'll likely have a "clean" trip.

 

[TangerinO]

I think external factors are far more relevant than imaginary ideas that the brain/body can detect the difference between 84% "pure" LSD and "92%" pure LSD. Your body simply isn't that sensitive. And that's assuming that these alleged "impurities" are also psychoactive drugs active at even smaller doses than LSD.

If you take the "purest" LSD in a filthy room surrounded by shitten underpants you're likely to have a "dirty" trip. If you take the most "impure" LSD beside a waterfall in the forest on a sunny day you'll likely have a "clean" trip.

I dunno about that, I've taken acid in all sorts of situations, including some that were less than desirable. I could still tell the quality of the LSD I was taking based on how it affected my body and my mind, not on the actual content of the trip. I often stock up on multiple prints with enough to get a few trips out of each, and when you start comparing them all, you can definitely tell that different batches produce different effects.

I'm thinking of one specifically, where I took two Alex Grey/Ganeshas in the worst possible environment (in a small room, watching American Psycho, filled with about 10 people, several of whom make me uncomfortable) and I still feel like it was some of the cleanest acid I've ever taken. Perfectly nice on the body, and clear in the mind.

As opposed to another trip I had a few weeks prior, where I was getting all sorts of horrible feelings in my body and much more confusion, and yet had a much more positive oriented trip.

Then there's one particular drop of acid I've had, I've been searching for something to match the quality ever since. No uncomfortable body load, and virtually no mental confusion at easily the highest dose I've ever had.

I think the confusion comes from people thinking cleaner acid will produce a more positive trip, when really the only difference as far as I can tell is just side effects of ingesting the chemical, such as leg cramps, gas, stomach cramps, nausea, confusion, etc. the cleaner it is the less you notice the chemicals toll on your body.

 

[Jakeperson]

I think the confusion comes from people thinking cleaner acid will produce a more positive trip, when really the only difference as far as I can tell is just side effects of ingesting the chemical, such as leg cramps, gas, stomach cramps, nausea, confusion, etc. the cleaner it is the less you notice the chemicals toll on your body.

This. It's usually the difference between tabs and liquid or crystal for me. I seem to be quite sensitive to the by products of LSD degradation as I am yet to have a trip without those side effects from tabs.

 

[Ismene]

I dunno about that, I've taken acid in all sorts of situations, including some that were less than desirable. I could still tell the quality of the LSD I was taking based on how it affected my body and my mind, not on the actual content of the trip.

So you don't think LSD by itself can cause negative side-effects? I remember Huxley talking about how he found LSD more physically jarring and unpleasant even when he was taking pure sandoz.

I often stock up on multiple prints with enough to get a few trips out of each, and when you start comparing them all, you can definitely tell that different batches produce different effects.

Are you comparing them blind tho? Or are you taking one batch, then when you take the same batch next time you're thinking "This batch is righteously mellow".

I had the same thing when I two different types of mushrooms capsuled in the freezer. I was absolutely convinced that one batch was far more "visual" than the other batch. Then I took some and had the most visual trip of my life. I checked and I'd taken the capsules from the batch I thought were non-visual. That taught me the lesson that believing something about a batch has a very powerful effect.

I think the confusion comes from people thinking cleaner acid will produce a more positive trip, when really the only difference as far as I can tell is just side effects of ingesting the chemical, such as leg cramps, gas, stomach cramps, nausea, confusion, etc. the cleaner it is the less you notice the chemicals toll on your body.

What "chemicals" active at millionths of a gram cause such powerful physical effects as leg cramps and nausea tho?

Havn't you ever taken acid one week and had a headache and side effects and then taken the same blotter the week after and felt fine? Don't you think clean acid can have any negative effects all by itself? If you're physically tired, if your mood is low, if you've been hammering other drugs all week, LSD can never have any negative side-effects as long as it's "clean" enough?

 

[Ismene]

I seem to be quite sensitive to the by products of LSD degradation

How have you established this is the effect of the "byproducts" rather than the effects of the LSD?

 

[THC2LSD]

Maybe you've been fortunate enough to have never had bad acid, you've only had impure acid, or you're insensitive to the impurities, but the difference between clean acid and dirty acid is like night and day. You can have good trips off impure acid, but they can't compare to clean acid. Good acid has no body load or taste.'Bad' acid seems to have a heavy body load with lots of muscle tension and a slight bitter taste, some mistakenly blame on a strychnine/amphetamine cut.Although supposedly some less than ethical individuals will put tiny doses of atropine which is active at LSD like doses to increase the visuals, might just be a rumor.

A lot of the Sandoz acid was purified via fractional crystallization, and was brown and impure.An effective chromatographic purification that gives white LSD wasn't developed till it was banned. The Erowid brown Sandoz acid may have degraded with time.

It's not true that there's no ergoloids active at LSD dose. Ergonivine is active at 200mcg. Ergotamine is active at 1mg, and some have had very strong effects at that dose; it's oral BA is only 5%, so it's really quite potent. Many ergoloids are potent CYP3A4 inhibitors and highly protein bound, LSD may dislodge the impurities from plasma protein and inhibit metabolism of them, and vice-versa. Street LSD is often 50-60% pure. There are many impurities possible, clavines from techinical grade ergot alkaloids, hydrazides, isomers, and polymerized tar that's hard to remove. Individually they may seem inactive to a sober person, but together in combination with LSD feel very active. I wouldn't be surprised if I gave you a potent dopamine/serotonin agonist and it'd seems to be inactive in low doses. But LSD may sensitize some people to the effects of these impurities, perhaps via beta-antagonism from the impurities potentating alpha agonism, acting as co-agonist, or simply the trip itself makes one sensitive to slight changes in the body.

If your looking for a double-blind clinical study to prove it one way or another, you'll be disappointed; there can't be one do to legal restriction. All we have is anecdotal accounts of people feeling something different between different batches of acid that seemingly can't be explained by set-setting alone, and reports of trips with NO BODY LOAD, and of a common feeling of muscle tension with 'bad acid'.

OP, there is no mescaline based LSD tabs, it'd have to be as big as an aspirin to get an active dose. What you described could be an RC, or impure LSD, no one can tell over the internet.

 

[IamMe90]

So you don't think LSD by itself can cause negative side-effects?

I often stock up on multiple prints with enough to get a few trips out of each, and when you start comparing them all, you can definitely tell that different batches produce different effects.

Are you comparing them blind tho? Or are you taking one batch, then when you take the same batch next time you're thinking "This batch is righteously mellow".

I had the same thing when I two different types of mushrooms capsuled in the freezer. I was absolutely convinced that one batch was far more "visual" than the other batch. Then I took some and had the most visual trip of my life. I checked and I'd taken the capsules from the batch I thought were non-visual. That taught me the lesson that believing something about a batch has a very powerful effect.

I think the confusion comes from people thinking cleaner acid will produce a more positive trip, when really the only difference as far as I can tell is just side effects of ingesting the chemical, such as leg cramps, gas, stomach cramps, nausea, confusion, etc. the cleaner it is the less you notice the chemicals toll on your body.

What "chemicals" active at millionths of a gram cause such powerful physical effects as leg cramps and nausea tho?

Havn't you ever taken acid one week and had a headache and side effects and then taken the same blotter the week after and felt fine? Don't you think clean acid can have any negative effects all by itself? If you're physically tired, if your mood is low, if you've been hammering other drugs all week, LSD can never have any negative side-effects as long as it's "clean" enough?

This is something we can agree on every scintilla of scientific evidence points to the conclusion that set and setting, not 30 micro gram doses of chemical X, are negatively coloring your LSD experiences. Believe us, LSD is a very unpredictable chemical, and its variance of effects can easily explain away any "weird" sensations or mental alterations.

 

[THC2LSD]

What scientific evidence? You have as much evidence that it's just set-setting as that it's the impurities. Hell maybe the impurities counteract LSD's side effects, maybe I got it ass-backwards. Maybe sometimes it is set-setting and sometimes it's the impurities or lack thereof.

I still think that no one should assume the impurities are harmless and release a sub-par product onto the streets.

 

[IamMe90]

What scientific evidence? You have as much evidence that it's just set-setting as that it's the impurities. Hell maybe the impurities counteract LSD's side effects, maybe I got it ass-backwards. Maybe sometimes it is set-setting and sometimes it's the impurities or lack thereof.

I still think that no one should assume the impurities are harmless and release a sub-par product onto the streets.

No, I think you spoke for yourself. The only active ergoloids you mentioned were active in doses of upwards of 200 micrograms and 1mg. These are doses you are not likely to get from a pure LSD blotter itself, let alone 30% of that 100ug blotter which is somehow supposed to contain 200 micrograms or 1mg of synthesis byproduct? The reason you have doubters in this thread is that it's highly unlikely. If you can honestly show me a compound that produces very exaggerated physiological effects at =~ 30microgram dosages, please, cite the relevant reference. But, to be quite frank, I don't think you will find such a reference.

 

[THC2LSD]

Ergotamine's oral bioavailability is only .9-3% that means out of a 2mg dose it only takes as little as 18mcg to have an effect, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1428366/. Ergonovine is active in 100mcg doses. Ergotamine is both a substract and inhibitor or CYP34A, as is other ergot alkaloids, can't find info on LSD itself but every other ergoloid is an inhibitor.They are 99% plasma protein bound. My hypothesis is that LSD is inhibiting CYP34A and displacing them from plasma protein, make the impurities, not just unreacted ergoloids but uncharacterized degraded shit too, LSD isomers, various clavines, and Lysergic acid hydrazide/azide/pyrozole are made active synergically with LSD. The problem is your mistaking THERAPEUTICALLY ACTIVE for MINIMALLY ACTIVE while on LSD. Hoffmann, Owsley and many other believed the impurites did have an effect. And a blotter can fit a couple mg, do you think some money hungry cook is going to care to remove 1mg impurity if they fuck up and only get 10% yield.

I have little soild proof for my hypothesis, only anecdotes and my personal experience combined with what's know about other ergoloids, but to say it's impossible for any impurity or cut to be active in LSD like doses just isn't true. I may very well be wrong, maybe you're right. No one more than me wishes for the impurities to be inactive, it'd make prepping acid much easier. But I feel the impurities do effect the experience.

 

[SpecialK_]

I think external factors are far more relevant than imaginary ideas that the brain/body can detect the difference between 84% "pure" LSD and "92%" pure LSD. Your body simply isn't that sensitive. And that's assuming that these alleged "impurities" are also psychoactive drugs active at even smaller doses than LSD.

If you take the "purest" LSD in a filthy room surrounded by shitten underpants you're likely to have a "dirty" trip. If you take the most "impure" LSD beside a waterfall in the forest on a sunny day you'll likely have a "clean" trip.

This is pretty much how I see things. It just depends on the day and how you're feeling as to how the trip feels. The odd time you just have a dirty trip, be it because you weren't completely in the mood to trip/relaxed/in a good mindset or because you weren't feeling well in generally before the trip. The reason I believe this is after eating the same acid from a sheet for a consistent period and I had a variety of trips, sometimes they were clean, sometimes they werent.

Alot of people I know who discuss the 'purity' thing would always comment that it's more so to do with the comeup, which I link to the above. But they also comment on the colour enhancement being a lot more prominent. I don't know where I stand with it though, I wouldn't mind trying some of these WoW blotters from 'Cali/America' that people discuss to find out.

 

[bluedolphin]

Why would a purer LSD batch give you a kinder ride? It seems to me that the only qualitative differences between impure LSD and potent LSD should be the qualitative differences present at differing dosages. What kind of synth impurity or byproduct is going to be active at the sub-microgram range? (Remember that the impurity is going to be in significantly less quantity than the LSD, if it was a 70% pure synth you've got 30% of byproduct (assuming it is only one byproduct) which is going to be 30ug in a blotter.) I don't know of any such compound that is going to give such noticeable effects at such miniscule doses, but I could be wrong.

Yeah mathematically it doesn't really compute. But I've seen raw grams of LSD that looked like white fluffy powder, and raw grams of LSD that literally looked like a ball of black opium. They were both LSD. The white stuff sold for about 2x the amount of the black stuff. And there was a good reason.

Everyone who tripped on the black stuff said it was strong as hell but kind of like having a lightning bolt being injected into your cranium.

Everyone who tripped on the fluffy white stuff said it was also strong but much cleaner feeling and they would have no second thoughts on taking a high dose of this batch.

These are just two extreme examples that I know first hand. But in my experience how clean the LSD does make a difference. I'm not a chemist so I can't tell you exactly why. Just that it obviously does.

 

[psood0nym]

What scientific evidence? You have as much evidence that it's just set-setting as that it's the impurities. Hell maybe the impurities counteract LSD's side effects, maybe I got it ass-backwards. Maybe sometimes it is set-setting and sometimes it's the impurities or lack thereof.

I still think that no one should assume the impurities are harmless and release a sub-par product onto the streets.

Maybe if we enumerate the evidence and compare but not if we weigh and contrast it using sensible judgment. We know that the EXACT same LSD laid on different prints has resulted in people claiming one print is profoundly better than the other, despite there being no difference in chemical composition. The same LSD with the same people one time is dirty, the next lucid and pure. Variability in human perception is a constant powerful influence. That factor we can weigh heavily. We know little about the subjective effects of these impurities independently, and we have reason to suspect they have little influence on the average 100 mcg dose. So we don't have reason to weigh the cloudy evidence for substantial independent influence of impurities on subjective effect nearly as heavily as the definite influence of set and setting in our judgment. Even in the unlikely event that these impurities are in fact responsible for "dirty" subjective effects, it's still not remotely the better argument right now. It would still not mean that set and setting are not more often the larger factors in the innumerable cases of drug users out there incessantly blaming chemical purity for their subjective experience. Not equal. Mere possibility is not plausibility. I don't give a fuck what a few chemists say. What are the reasons. REASONS OR MAKE ME UNDERSTAND! Why won't this die??? I want it to die. Please Christ make it die. *throws wine into fire and storms out*

 

[Ismene]

Street LSD is often 50-60% pure. There are many impurities possible, clavines from techinical grade ergot alkaloids, hydrazides, isomers, and polymerized tar that's hard to remove. Individually they may seem inactive to a sober person, but together in combination with LSD feel very active. I wouldn't be surprised if I gave you a potent dopamine/serotonin agonist and it'd seems to be inactive in low doses. But LSD may sensitize some people to the effects of these impurities, perhaps via beta-antagonism from the impurities potentating alpha agonism, acting as co-agonist, or simply the trip itself makes one sensitive to slight changes in the body.

But the alleged impurities would have to be far more powerful than LSD - remember you're noticing them above an immensely powerful drug like LSD in far lower doses.

It's kina like sitting in a lake that a 2 year old has urinated in and saying "I can tell there's urine in here..."

 

[Ismene]

Everyone who tripped on the black stuff said it was strong as hell but kind of like having a lightning bolt being injected into your cranium.

Everyone who tripped on the fluffy white stuff said it was also strong but much cleaner feeling and they would have no second thoughts on taking a high dose of this batch.

Were they taking them blind? Or were they taking them after someone had said "Dude, this is the black batch, it's dirty as hell"?