The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[Xorkoth]

It can be interesting to argue with Ismene but rarely productive. My wife would say I argue the same way you do when we fight... find the first trivial point with which to find some little flaw and then feel that the remainder of what is said has been discredited.

I do hope you get to experience it sometime, dude.

I'm also curious about your responses to my post.

 

[Ismene]

Tripping isn't the same thing. But, you don't seem to get that what we're talking about is radically different than simply tripping. Ego-death is ego-death. There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is the same.

No, there's very few buddhists that would agree with you on this. Pretty much all buddhist/hindu teachers say taking drugs is nothing like buddhism and doesn't take you to the same place. I found that was one of the main things that put me off buddhism - that the teachers so fervently believed their own claims and patronised psychedelic users with "You don't have real understanding of Buddhism" because if you had any "real understanding" then you must of course agree with them.

This belief is an expression of your ignorance. You simply don't know or understand. It's sad to say, but you're simply out of your element in this discussion. You speak of something that is unknowable but through direct experience, you don't have the experience, yet you continue to speak as though you're beliefs on something you're completely ignorant of are relevant. I hope someday you'll experience what we're describing and have a good laugh at your former self.

Yeah, this is the same patronising argument buddhists always use when you don't blindly accept their ideas as well. If you say drugs are every bit, if not more, valid a path than buddhism they always say "You have never experienced true meditation and true enlightenment. Drugs are superficial, I pity you", the assumption being that, of course, that they know "better". The trouble comes when you suggest they don't. As Terence Mckenna put it "It's one thing sweeping the ashram for 60 years telling yourself that one day you'll achieve enlightenment, it's another taking a drug and getting the same feeling in 5 minutes time".

And also it's not quite as black and white as that. I do recognise some elements of how you describe ego-death (perhaps I experienced "ego-seriously-injured"?) I just choose not to tie it in with beliefs I've read in books about "ego-death" and buddhist ideas of universal consciousness. I'm sure it would be easy to do so - if you're tripping with a mindset full of ideas like "ego-death" and buddhist beliefs in "universal consciousness" you're going to make them fit. I read a committed christian who once tripped and he was saying that when he read the bible he saw the words on fire and knew they were the ultimate truth. If I'dve said "I think it's bullshit" to him he would have told me, just like you're doing, that I didn't know what I was talking about

As John Lennon put it once - "ANYTHING FITS if you're tripping off some trip".

 

[Ismene]

It can be interesting to argue with Ismene but rarely productive. My wife would say I argue the same way you do when we fight... find the first trivial point with which to find some little flaw and then feel that the remainder of what is said has been discredited.

How patronising! :D

Is it a "trivial" point that everyone who has experienced "ego-death" says it's something different?

I certainly don't agree with the claim that psychedelics can make you lose any idea of who you are or what your name is or that you have taken a drug and are tripping. That's contrary to everything I've ever experienced from psychedelics and everything I've ever read. So that's not a "trivial point" for me either. When you read the accounts of anyone who hasn't heard of Leary's idea of "ego-death" or read books on Buddhism they are always aware of themselves under the influence of a drug. As Maria Sabina said "Language belongs to the saint children. They speak and I have the power to translate".

And don't get me wrong, I've experienced feeling one with nature and the feeling that there were no boundaries. But I've always know who I was and that I'd taken a drug and was tripping. I think anyone who can take LSD and have no idea who they are or that they are under the influence of a drug is in a very small minority. Certainly if that had been noted as a feature of the drug during the enormous research carried out in the 50's it would never have been used as extensively as it was. I'm sure the idea you get "ego-death" from LSD came about after Learys book and the boost in the popularity of eastern religions in the 60's.

 

[B9]

^Izzy have you never "become other things" when tripping ?


Also I'm sure you'd agree that under the influence of a high dose of psychedelics the ego can be much reduced. This is the function of LSD that therapists used to prize because it can allow people to open doors they'd usually keep firmly locked.

 

[Ismene]

^^^
No, I've felt at one with nature and animals but I've never thought I was anything other than myself under the influence of a drug. I have been guilty of running away with it a bit and thinking "Oh, I'm onto some universal truth here, is mankind really ready for this knowledge..." but as the drug wears off you realise it wasn't really all that profound - it just seems profound when you're on the drug.

I don't like the idea of the ego because advances in brain science rendered Freuds ideas obsolete. It's a bit like the difference between astronomy and astrology - Freud was trying to guess how the brain worked without access to MRI scans.

But I do think LSD is an incredibly useful drug for opening you up to your deepest emotions.

 

[Mjäll]

I think Ismene's point still stands, regardless of whether he himself has reached this "ego death" state or not. In fact, I think he cannot reach it because he is unwilling to - or rather, he doesn't interpret heavy psychedelic inebriation as "ego death" and thus does not experience, recollect and put it forth as enlightenment similar to nirvana or moksha of eastern religions.

I myself am inclined to view it in much the same way. I have taken high doses of several psychedelics, and reached states where who I am and what I was doing did not matter (and, indeed, sometimes could not matter because these facts simply were not there). But these states were still, in my view, products of my personality, triggered by the drugs. Thus I am hesitant to call this "ego death", although I can definitely see the rationale behind and fully respect this term.

PS: I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Ismene, so I'm sorry if it seems that way. Your own post seems to hint at the same conclusion as mine anyway so no harm intended and hopefully none done

 

[Ismene]

^^
That's pretty much what I'm saying Mjall. Thank you for your understanding

I'm a big believer in the MRI scan as a means to understanding the brain and it's effects. I'm not so keen on using religious theories from 2000 years ago to understand the brain. They may sound relevant to some people - even me whenever I hear an astrology report I sometimes think "My god, that's accurate" - but obviously I know it's horseshit.

So if believing Freuds idea of an ego made 100 years ago when the brain could barely be studied, then Learys idea that you can have an "ego-death" from LSD and then tying it in with Buddhist ideas are a prerequisite to having an "ego-death" then I'm definately never going to experience it. Because I don't believe in any of them.

 

[B9]

^^^
No, I've felt at one with nature and animals but I've never thought I was anything other than myself under the influence of a drug.

I'm driving at something more than feeling at one - perhaps a unification between myself & whatever - I would agree that in this situation I am aware that "I" have become ****** so that isn't ego death but it's probably indicative of much reduced boundaries & a willingless not to fight against this.
I often think that there's misinterpretation going on in situations where you "appear" to be opposed to the position of most folks.
Ego death would be a poor description - ego dissolution I prefer.

Mjall - I'd agree much of this is simply a matter of interpretation & the metaphors with which we framework these interpretations don't necessarily work for everyone. How does one framework what is frequently beyond the limitations of words anyway?

Personally I feel that I understand both positions - I'd like to think so anyway ( now i can boost my ego by feeling all wise & stuff )

 

[love_sex_desire]

I'm a big believer in the MRI scan as a means to understanding the brain and it's effects. I'm not so keen on using religious theories from 2000 years ago to understand the brain.

So if believing Freuds idea of an ego made 100 years ago when the brain could barely be studied, then Learys idea that you can have an "ego-death" from LSD and then tying it in with Buddhist ideas are a prerequisite to having an "ego-death" then I'm definately never going to experience it. Because I don't believe in any of them.

I understand how people that are pre-disposed to the ideas of Leary and eastern spirituality may be more inclined to experience ego-dissolution, but the one time I experienced temporary ego-death I was 18 years old and still in high school. I had limited knowledge of eastern spirituality, psychology and Leary's ideas at that point. I struggled to define what I had experienced during this psychedelic spiritual liberation, which led me to research psychedelics and eastern mysticism only to find parallels between what I had experienced in both. I don't subscribe to any one doctrine, but this is why I respect a lot of the teachings in Buddhism, Taoism and some of Hinduism. Without any disposition towards any religions, I was an agnostic/athiest, I experienced what was undoubtedly an eastern spiritual manifestation.

Believing Freuds idea of an ego made 100 years ago when the brain could barely be studied, then Learys idea that you can have an "ego-death" from LSD and then tying it in with Buddhist ideas are not a prerequisite to having an "ego-death" experience. Of course you will be more successful in experiencing ego-death if you are pre-disposed towards these ideas, just like you are pre-disposed to not experience ego-death based on your ideas, but there is no prerequisite to experience ego-death.

 

[Shakti]

No, there's very few buddhists that would agree with you on this. Pretty much all buddhist/hindu teachers say taking drugs is nothing like buddhism and doesn't take you to the same place. I found that was one of the main things that put me off buddhism - that the teachers so fervently believed their own claims and patronised psychedelic users with "You don't have real understanding of Buddhism" because if you had any "real understanding" then you must of course agree with them.

Ok, so let me get this straight. You're arguing against an assertion of mine by reiterating someone else's assertion that you don't even agree with?

Yeah, this is the same patronising argument buddhists always use when you don't blindly accept their ideas as well. If you say drugs are every bit, if not more, valid a path than buddhism they always say "You have never experienced true meditation and true enlightenment. Drugs are superficial, I pity you", the assumption being that, of course, that they know "better". The trouble comes when you suggest they don't. As Terence Mckenna put it "It's one thing sweeping the ashram for 60 years telling yourself that one day you'll achieve enlightenment, it's another taking a drug and getting the same feeling in 5 minutes time".

Fact is, mostly drugs don't produce ego-death. Even with drugs it's very rare. Most drugs and drug experiences, including most psychedelic experiences, are superficial. Even when they do allow access to Truth, they don't give you the means to live by it. Meditation will take you to Truth, and allow you to stabilize the realization and live by it and as it every day, every moment. I've tripped more than I care to estimate, and I've never experienced ego-death through drugs. I've experienced it the old fashioned way. So, with that kind of perspective I can confidently say that I recognize the realization of some of the people in here as being authentic. They converge on the same point and the same reality is revealed.

You're one to speak of patronization. You dismiss others' words without understanding them. You play lip service to any supposed authority when it suits your argument. You really are putting forth no effort to understand. Your only interest is in advancing your self conception by advancing you ignorant ideas. I hope you feel better about your self. I hope your arrogance and ignorance suits you.

 

[B9]

Fact is, mostly drugs don't produce ego-death. Even with drugs it's very rare. Most drugs and drug experiences, including most psychedelic experiences, are superficial. Even when they do allow access to Truth, they don't give you the means to live by it

I'd agree - however it may offer an opportunity to glimpse truth and from that glimpse one may choose to find avenues to try to realise that Truth.

 

[Shakti]

^I agree. My point was that psychedelics don't seem to have the power to stabilize the realization on their own. The can reveal and illuminate Ultimate Reality, but to live and embody that realization is another issue. Of course though, the glimpse they provide can accelerate and motivate individuals to do so.

 

[love_sex_desire]

^^ I think we can all agree that psychedelics rarely produce ego-death, and even if one does experience this phenomena, it is up to the individual to integrate that experience into their life. The amount of people that have integrated psychedelic induced ego-death is therefore very minimal. I've only experienced ego-death once, and most people that I know use psychedelics recreationally, with no spiritual intentions.

It was incorrect if I seemed to imply that ego-death is a defining character of high doses of psychedelics, but it is true that psychedelics are one of the very few avenues to experience true ego-death. It is more correct to imply that differing degrees of ego-loss are a defining character of high doses of psychedelics, which can sometimes culminate in true ego-death.

 

[psood0nym]

Regarding meditation and psychedelics (forgive me if this was posted already).
From here.

Immediately after my first DMT voyage the drug was administered to the Hindu monk. This dedicated man had spent fourteen years in meditation and renunciation. He was a sannyasin, entitled to wear the sacred saffron robe. He has participated in several psychedelic drug sessions with extremely positive results and was convinced that the biochemical road to samadhi was not only valid but perhaps the most natural method for people living in a technological civilization.

His reaction to DMT was, however, confusing and unpleasant. Catapulted into a sudden ego-loss, he struggled to rationalize his experience in terms of classic Hindu techniques. He kept looking up at the group in puzzled helplessness. Promptly at twenty-five minutes he sat up, laughed, and said, "What a trip that was. I really got trapped in karmic hallucinations!"

The lesson was clear. DMT, like the other psychedelic keys, could open an infinity of possibilities. Set, setting, suggestibility, temperamental background were always there as filters through which the ecstatic experience could be distorted.

I'm of the persuasion that psychedelic-induced ego-death and enlightenment are probably the same metaphysical realization. The huge difference is that the person who meditates for decades and literally transforms his or her brain through self-directed neuroplastic processes has developed the discipline and integrity of being to maintain or recall the experience without it driving them insane.

It's happened four times to me using psychedelics in well over a decade of use. Each time it was preceded by a jarring electric jolt and a loud snap, and it's been unmistakable and extremely disturbing for all four. I've experience identity substitution with salvia, ecstatic self-actualization ("ego union") with 4-AcO-DMT, hyperspatial perception with a salvia/ayahuasca combo, glossolalia, and blissful visions of unity and "oneness" and timelessness where I had no recollection of myself. They're all different species of breakthrough experiences but NONE of these are what ego death is. Ego death is observing your familiar lived-in internal monologue confused and panicking intensely from whatever happened to it a moment before, but as a mere pattern wholly disengaged from reflexive awareness--like a psychopath's shadow, without substance, flat and expressionless at the sight of torture.

 

[Ismene]

Most drugs and drug experiences, including most psychedelic experiences, are superficial. Even when they do allow access to Truth, they don't give you the means to live by it. Meditation will take you to Truth, and allow you to stabilize the realization and live by it and as it every day, every moment.

No, I completely disagree. Psychedelics are infinitely more valuable than buddhism and meditation. Psychedelics are your own personal insight into yourself. That's entirely different to following some prescribed system of thought dreamed up by strangers who died thousands of years ago. As Bill Hicks said "All those people that created tradition, that created countries and created rules - them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance".

You're one to speak of patronization. You dismiss others' words without understanding them. You play lip service to any supposed authority when it suits your argument. You really are putting forth no effort to understand. Your only interest is in advancing your self conception by advancing you ignorant ideas. I hope you feel better about your self. I hope your arrogance and ignorance suits you.

What on earth is this? I havn't insulted you. I don't dislike you at all. You're stating your opinion in a few posts on a drug board and I'm stating mine. Can't we disagree and still like each other?

 

[B9]

Can't we disagree and still like each other?

That might depend upon ones level of enlightenment


Fucking elves ha ha ha

 

[love_sex_desire]

Psychedelics are infinitely more valuable than buddhism and meditation. Psychedelics are your own personal insight into yourself. That's entirely different to following some prescribed system of thought dreamed up by strangers who died thousands of years ago. As Bill Hicks said "All those people that created tradition, that created countries and created rules - them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance".

I can humbly say that I respect your stance, and your implication that we should evolve "past" this state of traditional "ego-death". Whether intentional or inadvertently you have reminded me of the number one principal to never look back, fuck tradition, and always constantly evolve. You can never blame the Devils Advocate...

Maybe we are looking to our past experiences too much? Maybe that's what they were trying to tell us? Maybe we should define our own experiences from here on out? Or maybe we are truly onto something? Something that has existed with us all along....

I think this is the mystique behind psychedelics and al though I am in the depths of a K binge, and al though I have disagreed with you for the most part, I see validity in your post and would love to see responses to what you are saying. I don't think your post invalidates ego-death, but your concept of creating your own world, which in my eyes equates to evolution, has intrigued me to see others thoughts. Should we look past ego-death and try to crate our own sense of salvation? What may this salvation be?

Purely Subjective, rather than Purely Objective?

 

[Shakti]

No, I completely disagree. Psychedelics are infinitely more valuable than buddhism and meditation. Psychedelics are your own personal insight into yourself. That's entirely different to following some prescribed system of thought dreamed up by strangers who died thousands of years ago. As Bill Hicks said "All those people that created tradition, that created countries and created rules - them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance".

Do you have any critique that is based on process and living Buddhism, rather than historical objections? This type of content-less deconstructive thought might get you through Western universities OK, but it's pretty useless in this conversation. Why don't you go and achieve ego-death through either means before you critique the relative usefulness of either?

What on earth is this? I havn't insulted you. I don't dislike you at all. You're stating your opinion in a few posts on a drug board and I'm stating mine. Can't we disagree and still like each other?

Fact is I wouldn't have said any of that if I didn't like you. You wouldn't have had any of my time or consideration otherwise. I like ya. I'd like you even more if you could dish it out and take it. I'd like ya even more if you recognized what you were knowledgeable and qualified to speak on. You might think we're just stating opinions, because that's all you're doing.

 

[Ismene]

I'd like ya even more if you recognized what you were knowledgeable and qualified to speak on. You might think we're just stating opinions, because that's all you're doing.

Oh come off it shakti. You talk as if this ego-death claim of yours is unarguable, proven scientific fact. Why not present your evidence to the neuroscience community who dismissed Freuds theories 50 years ago? If you can convince them the ego exists and that you can have an "ego-death" on acid then you'll have an excellent chance of winning the next Nobel Prize.

You had a SUBJECTIVE experience. You have no idea whatsoever what was going on in your brain when this happened to you. You were stoned, had a brainfart and from that have concluded not only that the ego exists but that it died. It's too ridiculous for words.

You're expressing your opinion, nothing more.

Do you have any critique that is based on process and living Buddhism, rather than historical objections?

What do you mean by living buddhism? Do you mean buddhism as it is practised in recent times? Like the Tibetan buddhist monks who lived as slavemasters?

 

[adrian89987]

heh there's always so much semantic argument with this stuff.
What I consider "ego"-"death" is just the experience where that "voice" that I hear in my head while in a normal sober state is reduced to nothing and all that is left is pure awareness.

I dun care if an Ego actually exists as a separate thing from any other part of the mind. All I know is that in my day to day experience of living life I have an internal Dialog and during what I refer to as an ego death, this internal dialog is gone and uncapable of coming back until I am out of that state.