The Big & Dandy Ego Death Thread

[dread]

Ego and personality are dependent on each other. Ego defines the personality, while personality gives birth to the ego.

Without ego, in an egoless state, you no longer have a personality, there is no "you", there is simply "everything".

 

[Ismene]

heh there's always so much semantic argument with this stuff.
What I consider "ego"-"death" is just the experience where that "voice" that I hear in my head while in a normal sober state is reduced to nothing and all that is left is pure awareness.

Are you still aware that a few hours ago you took a drug and are now tripping?

 

[adrian89987]

The two times I've been in that state...no sir most definitely not.

 

[Ismene]

So when you hear criminals saying they carried out a crime because they were "high on acid" and "didn't know what they were doing" you'd be perfectly prepared to accept that?

 

[dread]

Well FWIW, I've sometimes been in a state where I didn't know what I was doing after taking acid.

 

[adrian89987]

So when you hear criminals saying they carried out a crime because they were "high on acid" and "didn't know what they were doing" you'd be perfectly prepared to accept that?

No, I'd like to know what the crime was and what drug they claim they were on and what dose. I would mostly say I would not accept it but thats beside the point. I certainly wouldn't have been capable of committing any kind of crime in that state.
Seems kind of a random question though..

 

[Crepsirezzell]

I know I experience ego death every time i take a large enough dose of nitrous oxide.

Nang nang nang nang nang....

 

[Delsyd]

So when you hear criminals saying they carried out a crime because they were "high on acid" and "didn't know what they were doing" you'd be perfectly prepared to accept that?

IME in a state of ego loss i would not be capable of commiting a crime.
All of my ego death experiences have been spent laying down untill the ego returnds whether that be 10 minutes from dmt/5meo dmt, or an hour or two from mushrooms, the whole time i am laying down unaware of anything except "the all," "the one" etc.

crime would not cross my thoughts as i am not having any thoughts. One needs an ego to commit a crime.

So to answer you question NO.
If someone commits a crime under the influence of a psychedelic they were not experiencing ego death.

not every trip results in ego death.

 

[love_sex_desire]

Ismene, I said earlier that I respected your implication that we should not prescribe to any system of thought, and that we should find our own means of spiritual development. I don't agree that all systems of thought should be discredited, many spiritual systems have been experimented against for hundreds of years, so there is validity in many spiritual practices, but I agree that it is important to use your own insight for spiritual advancement and to always question dogma and doctrine.

I don't agree that you think ego-death is not possible, but I do agree that we should look to ourselves for our own answers. Al though I think we should find insight within ourselves while also keeping an open, questioning mind to the spiritual archetypes throughout our history.

What kind of insights have psychedelics given you, that you have found within yourself? You say that psychedelics are much more valuable than spiritual practices, and al though I think they are both equally valuable, I wold still like to know why you think psychedelics are so much better from your own personal experience.

What kind of insights have you found without prescribing to any spiritual doctrine and without experiencing ego-death?

 

[love_sex_desire]

So when you hear criminals saying they carried out a crime because they were "high on acid" and "didn't know what they were doing" you'd be perfectly prepared to accept that?

Anyone that knowingly and willingly ingests any drug is completely responsible for anything they do while under the influence of said drug, regardless of whether at the time they know what they are doing or not. This is kinda besides the point...

 

[colorsinthevoid]

If you're capable of walking you aren't experiencing ego death. Although I suppose it's possible, I've never experienced it from acid or ayahuasca.

 

[Shakti]

Oh come off it shakti. You talk as if this ego-death claim of yours is unarguable, proven scientific fact. Why not present your evidence to the neuroscience community who dismissed Freuds theories 50 years ago? If you can convince them the ego exists and that you can have an "ego-death" on acid then you'll have an excellent chance of winning the next Nobel Prize.

Patronizing, no? Look, I for one am currently studying psychology at a well known and highly regarded university. And, guess what? Yeah, we talk about ego regularly. It ain't some far fetched irrational hoopla. It's just a fuckin word, who's meaning you resist and seem to fail to grasp.

And you know what? I could prove ego death experiences with an EEG machine. Trouble would be giving enough people enough acid and waiting for a significant number of ego-deaths to occur. Kinda like catchin lightning in a bottle. The rest would be simple. Observe how brainwaves collapse to Delta in some participants and do follow up questions and see how the experience of ego-death corresponds to those brainwaves, just as it does with formless deep sleep. Oh, wait ego-death corresponds to a particular brainwave state? Wait, those who directly experience that state report very similar phenomena, ie union with and being reality itself? Shit, son. You really think people are just confabulating this now?

And, Shit, U know what? Shit like this has already been done, just with other means of producing ego-death. I wouldn't win nothin.

You had a SUBJECTIVE experience. You have no idea whatsoever what was going on in your brain when this happened to you. You were stoned, had a brainfart and from that have concluded not only that the ego exists but that it died. It's too ridiculous for words.

You're expressing your opinion, nothing more.

When the distinction of subject and object dissolves, there is no subject and no subjective experience. I did not have a subjective experience. Opinion doesn't enter into it. The whole point of this is just that. There is no opinion of pure being, it just is. IT is Truth absolute. I don't need science to credit Truth. I don't expect it to and could give a fuck what "Science" thinks about it. Frankly, it's not science's role or even within its capacity to confirm or deny Truth. Science is just a process for quibbling about the details.

For you to call ego-death subjective is a radical misunderstanding of what it is. As well as further proof to anyone who understands that you're talkin out ur ass, just so you know.

Do you have any critique that is based on process and living Buddhism, rather than historical objections?

What do you mean by living buddhism? Do you mean buddhism as it is practised in recent times? Like the Tibetan buddhist monks who lived as slavemasters?

What I mean is, look through the fucking telescope before you comment upon what it reveals. You must live Buddhism before you're qualified to comment upon it's meaning. Otherwise, you're relegated to historical minutia.

Let me put this bluntly. I'm sure you'll be offended, but that's ok. You don't understand. You're out of your league. I shouldn't be angry with you any more than I should expect a 7 year old to do calculus, but at least the 7 year old knows it can't do calculus.

 

[socalBUD]

Shakti do you go to U Chicago...?

 

[Shakti]

Nope, NU.

 

[Ismene]

No, I'd like to know what the crime was and what drug they claim they were on and what dose. I would mostly say I would not accept it but thats beside the point. I certainly wouldn't have been capable of committing any kind of crime in that state.

So ego-death completely physically incapacitates you too?

Presumably if you have full grown men with absolutely no idea who they are or what they are doing or that they've taken a drug they must pose an incredible danger to those around them.

 

[Ismene]

Ismene, I said earlier that I respected your implication that we should not prescribe to any system of thought, and that we should find our own means of spiritual development. I don't agree that all systems of thought should be discredited, many spiritual systems have been experimented against for hundreds of years, so there is validity in many spiritual practices, but I agree that it is important to use your own insight for spiritual advancement and to always question dogma and doctrine.

Does longevity make it anymore valid tho? The buddhists in Tibet lived as slave masters for many hundreds of years. Clearly their buddhist philosophy couldn't even provide them with the most basic of human insights that slavery was wrong. I'm sure scientology will last for many,many years.

I think they are both equally valuable, I wold still like to know why you think psychedelics are so much better from your own personal experience.

I think it mostly depends on the person taking the psychedelic. A lot of people who take psychedelics remain complete arseholes, but the potential value of exploring your emotions through psychedelics is a lot greater than buddhism. In Buddhism you are blindly following the words of strangers who usually turn out to be peices of shit - such as the "great" Dalai Lama - in reality a slave master who left Tibet with all the gold he could carry.

What kind of insights have you found without prescribing to any spiritual doctrine and without experiencing ego-death?

I'd have to think about what insights carry over from the psychedelic experience to being sober. I think the main value is in the emotional release that happens during the trip. The trip is the thing - what you do with it afterwards is what you do with it afterwards.

 

[Ismene]

Patronizing, no? Look, I for one am currently studying psychology at a well known and highly regarded university. And, guess what? Yeah, we talk about ego regularly. It ain't some far fetched irrational hoopla. It's just a fuckin word, who's meaning you resist and seem to fail to grasp.

And you know what? I could prove ego death experiences with an EEG machine.

Wow, you mean you're a student? You must be right then. Teenage students are right about everything arn't they.

And no, you couldn't prove an ego death experience with an EEG machine. Don't be silly.

Shit like this has already been done, just with other means of producing ego-death

You keep saying this but it doesn't make it anymore true. What exactly are you talking about? Are you trying to say something the buddha said is exactly the same thing as an "ego-death" on acid? You tried to claim natives using psychedelics often talked about ego-death and I told you that was bullshit. I've never read a single native talk about ego-death and I've certainly read more in this field than you.

I did not have a subjective experience. Opinion doesn't enter into it.

Wow. You are so wrong I don't even know where to begin. You are seriously claiming you know precisely what was happening in your brain while you were stoned? Incredible.

You must live Buddhism before you're qualified to comment upon it's meaning.

Nonsense. If that was true then we'd have to "live christianity" and "live militant islam" before we could comment on it's meaning too.

Tibetan monks lived buddhism to a far greater degree than you ever will for hundreds of years. They also put out the eyes and mutilated the hands of their slaves while they were "living buddhism".

Let me put this bluntly. I'm sure you'll be offended

No, I'm not offended at all. You're a teenager with an atitude problem who thinks he knows better than everyone else. In twenty years time you'll think back to this and think "What an idiot I was".

 

[adrian89987]

So ego-death completely physically incapacitates you too?

Presumably if you have full grown men with absolutely no idea who they are or what they are doing or that they've taken a drug they must pose an incredible danger to those around them.

I've spent my two experiences lying in a bed, I was not aware of my physical capabilities.

And no I'd say they don't really pose an Incredible Danger.

 

[Shakti]

Wow, you mean you're a student? You must be right then. Teenage students are right about everything arn't they.

Somebody's not threatened at all.

And no, you couldn't prove an ego death experience with an EEG machine. Don't be silly.

Oh and why not?

You keep saying this but it doesn't make it anymore true. What exactly are you talking about? Are you trying to say something the buddha said is exactly the same thing as an "ego-death" on acid?

What does anything Buddha said have to do with this? I haven't quoted or referred to his words once in this conversation.

You tried to claim natives using psychedelics often talked about ego-death and I told you that was bullshit. I've never read a single native talk about ego-death and I've certainly read more in this field than you.

I never said any such thing. I've only spoken for myself in this conversation. And, I highly doubt you've read more on transcendence than me, but if you want to flatter yourself, go ahead.

Besides, ego-death is just a fucking term. It's what it points to that matters. People in other cultures have other ways of speaking of things. It doesn't mean that what we're referring to here as ego-death doesn't occur elsewhere and is simply spoken of in a different manner.

I did not have a subjective experience. Opinion doesn't enter into it.

Wow. You are so wrong I don't even know where to begin. You are seriously claiming you know precisely what was happening in your brain while you were stoned? Incredible.

You don't listen. My ego-death experiences are not drug induced. You're so fuckin off base here man. When I become eternal being, let me tell you there is little confusion. During ego-death subject and object become one and fall away as the eternal unmanifest. There is no division. Explain to me how there can be a subjective experience when there is no subject. The literal meaning of ego-death is the subject doesn't exist.

Does anyone know precisely what's happening in their brain? No, but anyone and everyone has the capacity to see precisely what's happening within their conscious Mind, stoned or otherwise.

Nonsense. If that was true then we'd have to "live christianity" and "live militant islam" before we could comment on it's meaning too.

Tibetan monks lived buddhism to a far greater degree than you ever will for hundreds of years. They also put out the eyes and mutilated the hands of their slaves while they were "living buddhism".

Historical minutia precisely. You can talk about scripture, events, participants in the faith, and a million other things associated with such things, but until you live it, you're just a tourist. The meaning is a first person experience, how can you understand that without living it?

No, I'm not offended at all. You're a teenager with an atitude problem who thinks he knows better than everyone else. In twenty years time you'll think back to this and think "What an idiot I was".

I'm 25. Thanks for your attempted degradation though. Being a student doesn't make me right, but being a student in this specific field makes me qualified to say the very specific thing I said. I know I wont regret a thing I've said here, because you know what, I've actually experienced what we're speaking of. I'm qualified to make the assertions I've made and like it or not I do know better than you on this. You've just missed the point horrifically, tossed your shit at the wall, and assumed it would stick this entire conversation. If I'm an idiot, it's because I'm casting pearls before swine.

 

[swilow]

So ego-death completely physically incapacitates you too?

Presumably if you have full grown men with absolutely no idea who they are or what they are doing or that they've taken a drug they must pose an incredible danger to those around them.

No, apparently I just lie in my bed as if unconcious. A few garbled sounds might ocurr. Theres no mover to move with It has frightened my girlfriend.

For an example of the ego/persona/self, note your leading and stupid questions and provocations thoughout the last few pages. Also, note my own criticissm of you in the previous sentence; thats my egoic judgmental Self talking. Theres a part of me that doesn't really care about what your saying, but also a part thats bored and feels like writing my opinon down. "Ego death" is when that aspect of our existence is gone. All aspects of "your" "existence" are "gone". They also aren't gone, but are shown to not even actually exist anyway.

If you smoked 150+mgs of DMT you will/won't experience/not-experience it/nothing.