Tryptamines The Big & Dandy DPT Thread - Part 3: So bright this light...

[perpetualdawn]

It looks like Kaempherol is really close to Quercetin. And to my surprise, Kaempherol seems to have nothing in common chemically with Camphor Oil

I've been debating whether or not I might try the amentoflavone + salvia part of it myself at least. I might give it a shot since I've been toying around with mixing things with salvia plain leaf to see what effect it has anyway. I've mostly just been unsure of it I want to try bothering with the flavonoid supplement right now, but I think I'll look into it. Not right away, but maybe not too far in the future. I do think it's an interesting experiment, and it could be kind of neat to have a kappa-opioid receptor antagonist on tap, if it turns out to seem like a truly significant one.

Let us know if you do try it out of course @Kaleida !

 

[perpetualdawn]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I can't resist: just chanced on this paper:

Inhibition of ALDH2 by quercetin glucuronide suggests a new hypothesis to explain red wine headaches​

Quercetin is one of the components of Ginko extract that we were just talking about, and this is interesting because of the Ginkgo headaches I was mentioning.

"Some alcohol consumers exhibit flushing and experience headaches, and this is attributed to a dysfunctional ALDH2 variant, the enzyme that metabolizes acetaldehyde, allowing it to accumulate"

So from what I understand, ALDH2 is an enzyme that breaks down acetaldehyde, an acetaldehyde is a nasty metabolize of ethanol that causes headaches and discomfort.

"quercetin-3-glucuronide, a typical circulating quercetin metabolite, inhibits ALDH2"

So it's possible that Ginkgo extract has enough quercetin in it to inhibit ALDH2. However, I was getting Ginkgo headaches without drinking ethanol (aside from the ethanol in the extract - which is hard to imagine would be enough?) so it doesn't quite all add up.

 

[Kaleida]

It looks like Kaempherol is really close to Quercetin. And to my surprise, Kaempherol seems to have nothing in common chemically with Camphor Oil

Let us know if you do try it out of course @Kaleida !

That's funny, I wouldn't have made that connection lol.

And will do!

Yeah, there's a lot of chemicals known that are in that family or close to it. Another one that looks different enough that you might not immediately make the connection but which you may have heard about anyway is resveratrol.

Ironically, when you first made your most recent post here I was already thinking about pointing out the fact that resveratrol is a component of red wine, heh. Great minds think alike I suppose.

This is getting a bit off topic, but I can't resist: just chanced on this paper:

Inhibition of ALDH2 by quercetin glucuronide suggests a new hypothesis to explain red wine headaches​

Quercetin is one of the components of Ginko extract that we were just talking about, and this is interesting because of the Ginkgo headaches I was mentioning.

"Some alcohol consumers exhibit flushing and experience headaches, and this is attributed to a dysfunctional ALDH2 variant, the enzyme that metabolizes acetaldehyde, allowing it to accumulate"

So from what I understand, ALDH2 is an enzyme that breaks down acetaldehyde, an acetaldehyde is a nasty metabolize of ethanol that causes headaches and discomfort.

"quercetin-3-glucuronide, a typical circulating quercetin metabolite, inhibits ALDH2"

So it's possible that Ginkgo extract has enough quercetin in it to inhibit ALDH2. However, I was getting Ginkgo headaches without drinking ethanol (aside from the ethanol in the extract - which is hard to imagine would be enough?) so it doesn't quite all add up.

This is news to me but apparently resveratrol modulates this enzyme too. I wonder if this is common among these molecules.

The side effects from improper metabolism of ethanol by ALDH2 are no joke. Common wisdom apparently claims that these kinds of side effects are more common in people of Asian descent and one of my favorite YouTubers who is half Asian once had a heart attack from having just a few beers because he gets this so badly. I don't consider myself an expert but apparently this is the specific problem linked to the dysfunctional ALDH2 variant you mentioned, or that's what science seems to think currently anyway.

I don't actually know enough to really confidently make any claims about whether or not the effects of quercetin on ALDH2 could cause this alone, but it is an interesting find. For what it's worth, ethanol and acetaldehyde are both endogenous substances in the human body. There's actually a rare physical disorder called auto-brewery syndrome where someone's body produces far too much endogenous ethanol and they are simply intoxicated from it at all times to the point that they may even fail a drunk driving test. All drug humor jokes that could arise from that aside, it sounds like a miserable condition to have.

I'm afraid I can't really answer whether I think that might be the link to why you get headaches from Ginkgo biloba, but I do find it interesting and would be curious to hear more if you find more possible links (although perhaps the conversation should be taken elsewhere). It's been a long time since I looked into flavonoids really other than when I was looking up amentoflavone but I might have to look into them more in general again because they do seem pharmacologically very interesting.