Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Diphenidine Thread

lastest · Mar 25, 2013

I had a weird day today after my crazy trip on 150mg last night. I dosed late - about 2AM - because I'd been up late talking to a friend and watching tv with some beers - the alcohol could have had some bearing on all this but I had five cans between 4PM and 2AM and my tolerance is quite high so I wasn't feeling in the least bit drunk by the time I dosed.

Anyway, I was down from the diph by about 4 or 5, but then I do have some strange memories of stumbling to the bathroom and back at 7, with severe motor coordination problems. It was like I'd done a ton of benzos, although I'd only had two etiz and I'm super-tolerant.

Anyway, I knew a friend was coming round a midday and I assumed that I'd be all dandy by then. But the next thing I knew she was standing in my room and calling my name. It turns out that my brother had let her in half an hour before and she'd been in and out of my room trying to wake me a few times without success. I've been falling asleep in the middle of conversations all day and I'm having real trouble texting and typing - this is taking me ages.

I don't know what's going on really. Is it the diph, or did I eat more etizs when I was zoned out and then forgot? Because it feels very much like I'm benzo'd up. Not in a bad way, I feel very relaxed. But it's all a bit unexpected and confusing.

Sepher, how have you been finding the day after your hole-dose trips?

I'm so tempted to hole again tonight, I'm getting really intrigued by this stuff now. But I have to go to a meeting at ten to eleven tomorrow morning and I have other stuff to do after that. Best leave it for another night I think.

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Sepher · Mar 25, 2013

Gonna reserve judgement on mental, emotional and physical state the day after for now. I didn't sleep at all that night after it, it had been a bad week, stimulants entered the mix later, all contributing factors, probably more so than the Diphenidine. If I had to call it anything though at the moment, take this with the pinch of salt it deserves, it would be the exact opposite of an after-glow. Not a great place to be in but mostly functional.

Dioxy · Mar 26, 2013

I ended up taking several 100mg doses (pre-prepared) when I went out on Friday night/Saturday. It was all finished by about 10am Saturday... I combined with some MDMA. The last dose was 2x100mg doses taken within a space of around 30 minutes (if I remember correctly), so the effective dose at the peak was probably more like 200mg for a short window. I also had a line of MDMA at the same time, and whilst apparently I was fully functional, I have absolutely no recollection of what happened for about an hour. Something quite emotionally 'difficult' happened at that same time (matters of the heart and all that), which might or might not be relevant, but the last thing I remember is this event happening, and then coming round in a different room. Someone approached me and thanked me for providing them with some Etizolam; confused, I told them it was no problem, checked my blister packet and saw that several had gone - apparently I handed them out to the group! Whilst I was coming round I must have let out my frustration at the situation that had bothered me to the person in question, which I hadn't intended to do - I'd meant to keep it all nice and bottled up - so I clearly wasn't in control of my emotions or inhibitions. Seems like that combination can be a potent one.

After the party finished on Sunday night, I slept for most of Monday and today - In much the same way as you describe, lastest, I've been struggling to keep my eyes open, feeling like my mind wants to 'shut down.' I believe this is partly an aftermath effect of the weekend, and partly a psychological response to the emotional stress, but either way it's certainly more lethargy than usual.

lastest · Mar 26, 2013

^ Jesus, sounds like quite a night Dioxy! Sounds like you've had a bit of rough time personally speaking, very sorry to hear that.

I did end dosing again last night in the end. I weighed what was left of my gram and it came to exactly 150mg on the dot so I thought "what the hell, go for it." Again, a delay of forty minutes maybe and then the feeling of being picked up bodily and chucked straight down a deep, dark hole. In the first few minutes I remember thinking things like "is it day or night?"; "do I usually go to bed at this time?"; "do other people live here with me?"; "are they in bed now?" And then stuff like "what kind of thing am I?"; "are things usually like this or different?" I also experienced what was either a very realistic and loud auditory hallucination, or else heard a normal sound that in my state I was completely unable to identify. A helicopter going over head maybe? Or could have just been the toilet flushing (my bedroom is next to the bathroom). I remember thinking that it was an air raid siren for some reason. Then I just took my clothes off, got into bed, turned out the light and was just gone entirely. I have a vague memory or being conscious of my breathing, and being glad that it was happening automatically and that I didn't have to worry about it, if you see what I mean. But that's about all, my sense of who or what or where I was was basically non-existent.

So that was at about ten, and at half past twelve my text alert went off and I seemed just to snap out of it all at once, I knew exactly what it was and what to do about it. Replied to the text no problem. At that point I actually got out of bed and got dressed again, as it was still so early in the evening - I rarely go to bed before about half one unless I have to be up very early. The after effect was a kind of strange, fractured feeling - a feeling of having been put through the ringer but being basically okay. Certainty not an "afterglow" - almost the opposite, as Sepher said. Like a mild hangover. I cracked open a beer and watched an episode of Veronica Mars (what? It's good!) as I probably would have done around that time anyway. I fell asleep about an hour or so later - I did feel very tired by then.

Today I've been feeling fine really, but quite tired. Went to a short meeting mid-morning, then went to meet up with a friend for a few hours to play arcade games and bowl. I do feel more exhausted by my day than I would normally considering I haven't done very much, but it wasn't like yesterday when I was quite non-functional.

So that's my gram gone, with some some very unsatisfying lower dose experiments and two straight-up, say-goodbye-to your-ego, dissociative holes at 150mg. I'm not sure whether to get more now. I might wait a bit and see what emerges from other people's experiences.

Dioxy · Mar 28, 2013

Thanks lastest, it wasn't pleasant but 'them's the breaks' in life and love eh.

I'm yet to try a single dose of 150mg+. I'm ready to embark on another trial this weekend, but can't decide whether to go for oral or nose again. I found it difficult to distinguish between the onset/duration'intensity profile of each ROA. I will try to confirm/revoke this statement tomorrow. I know I said I found insufflation uncomfortable but if it's the better ROA it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I have to be careful about going into serious holes in case my disapproving housemate discovers me - the rest are cool but one of them is a bit of a nightmare!

Sepher · Mar 28, 2013

This is an odd one. I dunno how tolerance works with chems in this class but I can't reproduce my earlier results. I've confirmed the dose. 50mg, bugger all there hardly, 100mg is verging on something / somewhere, but still here, 150mg is a headlong launch into somewhere very much not here. I just can't find anything whatsoever on the other side with my second trial. It's a completely blank void.

I have a TR written up of my notes this last run but I don't know it's useful as a TR anymore given the complete difference in the character of my two tests with this. FWIW, here it is, NSFWed for lengthiness.

NSFW:

I have a little left, ~200mgs maybe, haven't weighed it. Will save a week then go in hard again, see if I can find that first inner world that seemed so very real at the time.

lastest · Mar 30, 2013

Sepher, I envy you for having found an alternate reality even once, even if you can't reproduce it. Both my 150mg trips have led to a profound, highly interesting but quite scarey blankness, which is fascinating in its own right, but I would love to have entity encounter and vitual reality etc. I'm coming up on 80mg oral with my girl now (yeah, I did buy another gram, big surprise) - kind of a strategy to stop us redosing on eph and therefore maybe getting a little sleep tonight. We shall see...

Edit: Well it it did stop us redosing on ethylphenidate, but it didn't produce an experience to write home home about, so there you go.

Dioxy · Mar 30, 2013

Sepher said:
T+1:30 16:00 A great calmness descends. Otherwise all exactly as per the above, perhaps a little more so. RHR 100bpm. MOST surprising it's that high, nothing going on would ordinarily account for it. Poss. some mood lift, poss. just in a good mood today anyways, just very, very chilled out.

I'm quite fascinated by this, it's a small part of the action of this drug that seems to happen in quite sudden and pronounced way, and aside from the 'hole' experience that we're all chasing, it's arguably the most interesting effect. The first time I did it is when I noticed it most, around 1.5 hours after my last of four doses in the 60-100mg range, after some mildly MXE-reminiscent tingling/buzz, gentle dissociation and nervous energy, I felt suddenly, unexpectedly and undeniably at peace, almost like a benzo calm but without the sedation. I think I mentioned before it reminded me of the meditative qualities that 3-MeO can induce, especially in certain settings. Recreationally it's almost more of an 'absence of effect' than anything, but I'd love to understand its origin because it's still very cool.

Dioxy · Mar 31, 2013

I think I'm done with my experiments with this one. I did write a trip report, but I accidentally deleted it... idiot!

The MXE-like dissociative headspace and buzz is nice, but just nothing particularly special. There seems to be no 'in-between point' between that and un/semi conscious emptiness, which is, as we've discussed, interesting, but given that nothing seems to actually happen, and it's subject to complete amnesia of the experience, I can't say I'm particularly enamoured with it. I'm extremely happy for those of you that have managed the 'alternate reality' complete mind-fuck explosion, but it seems that just isn't on the cards for me personally, or if it is, I have absolutely no memory of it. Hah. I managed to re-dose whilst I was 'vacant,' anyway, and came round wondering why there were no lines left on the CD case. Not a friendly substance for a disso fiend.

There is something really quite sinister and dysphoric about the hangover afterwards, too. When the remaining dissociation and 'peaceful' feeling leaves, one is left with (as others have described) the 'opposite' of an afterglow. I've spent the last couple of hours quite blankly staring at my computer screen and not thinking very nice thoughts...

I'm glad I gave it a go (in the at first cautious and then heavy-handed way that I seem to approach all dissociatives!) but I'm afraid as far as Diphenidine goes, I'm out.

sekio · Mar 31, 2013

This sounds like some real MK-801 shit...

lastest · Mar 31, 2013

I holed pretty hard again, this time from 110mg oral. This time I had music playing (Nick Drake) and it made the experience more memorable, as it provided some sort of reference point that made it easier to remember the time spent in the hole. The lower dose also helped I'm sure. Still, it is very much a blankness - an absence of reality rather than an alternate reality. "A black hole of the senses" is a nice turn of phrase, Sepher, very apt. Towards the end I also had the most extreme feeling of 'thinness' as I call it - the sensation that no part of my body has any height, width or thickness and/or that every part of my body is hollow - all outside and no inside. It's something I fairly often experienced on hexylamines and is a truly disgusting sensation, not nice at all.

I came out of the hole with the notion that I now knew exactly what dissociation is in phenomenological terms, but every attempt to put it into words failed. My girlfriend eventually became (quite understandably) irritated with me so I gave up. However, having smoked a joint I felt I could give it a go after all, so I put pen to paper and came up with several sentences that boil down to this:

"Dissociative drugs inhibit the ability of the brain to correlate sensory data into an apparent totality in any given moment."

I don't know whether that is true at all. If it is, I don't know if it's a pretty commonplace idea of what dissociation is. It's just never occurred to me in quite that way before, and I think it's a reasonably logical idea that fits my subjective experience.

As you can tell from the above, once again I was fascinated but not entertained by this drug. I don't know if it's simply a lack of dopamine action or something more complex, but I agree with Dioxy - it works but it's not fun. Having had a read about MK-801, Seiko, I would guess that you are right to draw a parallel there.

I'm sure I'll use up the rest of my second gram, but I doubt if any further experience will yield anything to say that hasn't been said here already. Kudos to the chemists that have produced such a reliably effective NMDA antagonist, but it seems that more than NMDA antagonism alone is needed for a good time. This drug has clearly been designed to fill the dissociative-shaped gap in the UK RC market following the hexylamine ban. Close, but no cigar.

Dioxy · Apr 1, 2013

Whilst I don't know how close your analysis of dissociation is to the actuality either, I relate entirely to what I think you mean. I've described the experience of dissociation in similar ways before, and I feel as though this drug might be quite a good example of a fairly 'purist' dissociative (without the significantly present dopamine/mu-opioid/SERT actions of others). The dissociative experience seems always to be one of 'distance' from the external, which I find manifests in two main ways:

a) A loss or alteration of the organised interpretation of sensory/proprioceptive data (very similar to your description, in fact I've borrowed some of your phrasing there, nice work!)
b) An emotional distance/detachment (literally the dis-association of experience from response) from external events and from transient thoughts - I would speculate that this could be some part of the anxiolytic/stress-relieving properties of dissociatives.

For the sake of avoiding the spread of misinformation, I better mention that the following is pure (and probably quite ignorant) speculation! Just in case... haha.
What I find in my experience is that this distance from, and perhaps disregard for normal thought patterns and sense data can provide a proverbial 'space' for introspection. I also think that the reduction of external stimuli causes the mind to, for want of a better description, 'feed on itself,' focussing on inner thought patterns and and generating some erroneous feedback in the form of hallucination, based on the lack of sufficient input, much as we do when we cut ourselves off from light or sound. The way dissociatives can encourage us to focus on inner thoughts can be a very emotional experience, so I don't think it's that it disconnects one from emotion as such, rather that it applies a detachment from the every-day 'background noise' of life by changing the way we respond to it emotionally, in a manner that feels like there is a 'buffer' placed between the self and its surroundings. That is just an analogy of course based on how it feels, obviously not necessarily what is physiologically happening, but it's for this reason that I often compare the experience to a meditative state, in which one can choose to let thoughts pass by unheeded, or focus very intently on an individual train of thought.

That state of being is one that's very attractive for many of the same reasons that meditation is, which is why I now try to choose the latter option to deal with the inner human malady!

Solipsis · Apr 1, 2013

Actually (Zen) meditation, dissociatives and the link between them has been fascinating for me recently, but I may be starting to distrust something about it. Because a Zen state is one of being, including active thought patterns and associations, paying attention to the present... and the more one goes into the void the more 'denial' there is of parts of yourself. That nothingness is not meditation, it sounds more like being zombified and I am familiar with that aspect - I think - from 3-MeO-PCP especially having witnessed my housemate on considerable doses of it. He, too, lost time although I am sure it is still not as total and complete as dizolcipine and diphenidine apparently can produce.
Of the dissociatives I tried I find moderate doses of 3-MeO-PCE more conductive to a Zen state because I feel much more like I remain there. If a subtle part of you is quieted, that might make for a peaceful meditation session... but IMO this still suggests that to quiet down a part of your mind or self is a denial of it, and that is not truly the idea of meditation but rather what we often mistake as meditation. Surely even sober some meditation sessions have much more of a void-like quality but to think this is somehow a superior or advanced stage in meditation is - from what I learned about it - wrong, at least for Zen. Maybe not other methods.

But compounds like this, as it seems, could be quite interesting for ponderings about ontology and other fields of metaphysics if it allows a person to experience abstract concepts that may be related to nothingness.

It seems the matter of the ROA with diphenidine is cleared up and I am not surprised, the molecule does not seem to have groups that would be metabolized via first pass metabolism rendering it ineffective, but from the looks of it I would guess it to be a lipophilic compound. From these reports it sounds like it is considerably less long lived than dizolcipine, then again PCP does not have such an lengthy duration either. Maybe binding to fat is not the only factor to consider, there is protein binding as well which I cannot speculate on.

Would you agree that making this substance highly available could cause many amnestic disasters (including redosing bouts) a la phenazepam but sans the super potency?

kakti · Apr 2, 2013

Dioxy said:
Whilst I don't know how close your analysis of dissociation is to the actuality either, I relate entirely to what I think you mean.
For the sake of avoiding the spread of misinformation, I better mention that the following is pure (and probably quite ignorant) speculation! Just in case... haha.
What I find in my experience is that this distance from, and perhaps disregard for normal thought patterns and sense data can provide a proverbial 'space' for introspection. I also think that the reduction of external stimuli causes the mind to, for want of a better description, 'feed on itself,' focussing on inner thought patterns and and generating some erroneous feedback in the form of hallucination, based on the lack of sufficient input, much as we do when we cut ourselves off from light or sound.

Funny, that is almost exactly how I describe how anticholinergic drugs work - the acetylcholine receptors get blocked from sending the nerve impulses to our brain. Since your braining is running on 25% real information, it has to "fill in the gaps" by bullshitting the other 90%, making things up from memories. That would explain the super realistic visuals including bath and forth conversations but more importantly how common it is for people to hallucinate friends, family, and other things stored in your memory.

I don't think that the exact mechanism of action is known for anticholinergic drugs, but anyone else think that's decent explanation?

/threadjack

Dioxy · Apr 3, 2013

Solipsis said:
Actually (Zen) meditation, dissociatives and the link between them has been fascinating for me recently, but I may be starting to distrust something about it. Because a Zen state is one of being, including active thought patterns and associations, paying attention to the present... and the more one goes into the void the more 'denial' there is of parts of yourself. That nothingness is not meditation, it sounds more like being zombified

I perhaps described it not as well as I'd hoped - because I was meaning to talk about reasonably low-dose dissociative experiences, where the mind is fully conscious and aware of the present, and where thoughts are available for examination, but in which it becomes easier to either 'allow them to pass' without intruding emotionally, or equally, easier to study them in detail. From my very limited current understanding of quite basic meditation techniques, some of the states achievable through meditation are similar to the experience of zen-*like* (not necessarily strictly 'zen') calm that can be catalysed/encouraged by dissociative drugs. I think to an extent I use the state of serenity that I sometimes achieved, with conscious assistance, on low-medium doses of 3-MeO as a benchmark for the experience I aim for through sober means. I might well be doing it wrong, though! I certainly wouldn't call it 'advanced.'

Solipsis said:
Would you agree that making this substance highly available could cause many amnestic disasters (including redosing bouts) a la phenazepam but sans the super potency?

Yes, almost certainly. I can't recall if anyone else here has also experienced the 'unconscious' redosing phenomenon as I have, but there have, clearly, been several cases of 'vacant' holes, which I believe to be by far the most hazardous. It also seems that mobility (and in some cases even higher functionality) isn't necessarily impaired during the amnestic periods. The margin of error in dose between "buzzy" and "vacant" is hazardously small, in my view, again reminiscent of 3-MeO despite being markedly less potent.

kakti your speculation on that mechanism is interesting and I'd like to do some further reading on anticholinergics following it.

lastest · Apr 4, 2013

Solipsis said:
But compounds like this, as it seems, could be quite interesting for ponderings about ontology and other fields of metaphysics if it allows a person to experience abstract concepts that may be related to nothingness.

Well put, this has certainly been the case in my experience.

Solipsis said:
Would you agree that making this substance highly available could cause many amnestic disasters (including redosing bouts) a la phenazepam but sans the super potency?

I do think that the profound memory loss caused by this substance could certainly could lead to unfortunate incidents taking place. It is certainly the most memory-wiping drug I've ever experienced at hole dose levels, and that in itself seems quite dangerous. I've also noticed that when I come out of the hole I feel as though I am completely sober, but when I try to watch a film or TV show, I find the story utterly impossible to follow, in a similar way that I cannot follow narratives when on hexylamines. Last time I holed in diph I tried to watch the new Game of Thrones episode immediately after having come out of the hole but had to give up after ten minutes as I couldn't make sense of it, even though I could have sworn blind I was stone cold sober. Interestingly, a second attempt to watch the episode two hours later was just as fruitless and again I had to give up. It's as if that once you emerge from the hole you continue to be quite profoundly dissociated in a way that's difficult to recognize, perhaps because the hole is so extreme that the after effects seem very mild in comparison. This illusion of sobriety clearly has the potential for mishap.

However, in terms of redosing, my personal experience is that I have not felt the urge to do so after having taken a hole dose. I feel almost like I do following a breakthrough on 5-MeO-DMT - that it was a wild and slightly scary ride that I'm in no hurry to repeat. I've done four full-on holes on diph and not redosed after any one of them, or felt the slightest urge to do so. This is in marked contrast to my hexylamine use where jumping straight back into the hole has very often proved to be an irresistible temptation.

Of course that's just my experience - I wouldn't be at all surprised if others start caning this stuff while in the state I have experienced on the way down from this drug, which as I have said tends to make me feel much more lucid and rational than I actually am.

Sepher · Apr 4, 2013

As per my first post on this thread really, I absolutely blitzed my way through a gram of the stuff my first evening with it barely knowing what I was doing. I had the presence of mind to weigh out the later doses and do them in, which I would have found near impossible on MXE by comparison, I always struggled to get a redose together on that till I was well past the physically disabling after-stage but was still a very long way from rational at the time.

I was convinced I'd had a steady stream of emergency services through my bedroom that first trial, it seemed so very real. I was confused to find my front door still locked and intact coming out of my last voyage somewhere and actually ended up ringing 999 to ask the emergency services operator if I had in fact had a visit from anyone as I stood on my doorstep and gazed out onto an empty street I was sure would have a whole array of police, ambulance, fire engines parked up waiting for me to show my face. I think I almost expected to see police marksmen taking cover behind parked cars. Somewhat confusing conversation with the operator I can't quite remember except for my last apology for troubling them cos I was 'on drugs and need to go to bed'. Not really something you should say to someone responsible for despatching the police to your door probably, but no harm done. 8)

So, yeah, unconscious redosing, bizarre behaviour, I reckon it ticks those boxes nicely. $:\$ Saying that I felt a whole lot more rational on subsequent trials, probably because I was aware that madness was lying in wait if not careful and treated it with a lot more respect. Those lacking such caution might well get bitten on the arse with it.

lastest · Apr 4, 2013

^ I have been wondering what exactly you experienced on that first hole of yours, you had hinted that there were 'visitors' and you were fully immersed in an alternate reality. Now I know, thanks for sharing! It seems possible, as you suggest yourself, that the hallucinatory (perhaps even delirious) aspect of the trip was a response to the shock of holing so deep without expecting to - perhaps it was so hard for you to get your head round the fact that the drug was responsible for such a radical consciousness shift that your mind started inventing other scenarios, in this case a medical emergency situation.

It sounds proper frightening - were you scared or too emotionally detached by the drug to feel that way?

I on the other hand was pretty sure 150mg was going to hole me hard because of your report - thank god you posted because I was going to go for 200mg after my disappointingly weak 100mg trip, and probably would have gone to crazy town like you did. Not that it necessarily would have been a bad thing, I don't mind getting pretty out there. Still, hyper-real hallucinations of paramedics probably isn't first on my list of things I want to experience.

It's very much the old 'set and setting' mantra - seems like if you're expecting a hole on this stuff you'll get one, but unless it takes you by surprise it's going to be pretty content-free, as you've found on your subsequent forays Seph, and as Dioxy and I have consistently found.

I must say that anyone who complains about not being able to "find the hole" on methoxetamine, and 3/4MeO-PCP should probably have a pop at this. At 150mg oral the hole will come and find you. Whether or not it's a hole you enjoy comes down to (as has been discussed above) whether or not you like dissociative holes for their own sake, or whether you're looking to find anything down there in terms of hallucination or euphoria or delusion or anything else. It's an empty hole - perhaps some clever chemistry bod can tweak the molecule to fill it with something.

Sorry, I feel I'm hogging this thread a bit. Dissociation is one of my deepest interests, largely because I had a terrifyingly full-on dissociative experience (consisting of the feeling of 'thinness' I described in my earlier post) when I was a small child without the aid of drugs, and it's a nightmarish puzzle that has haunted me throughout my entire life. Discovering drugs like this that recreate that experience are therefore fascinating to me to the point of obsession.

Okay, I'll shut up now. My second gram is used up and I'm done with experimenting with and talking about diphenidine for now, although I will continue to be an interested lurker on this thread. Yeah I know I said that before, I'm sticking to it this time - unless anyone has a specific question for me of course.

clubcard · Apr 24, 2013

Isn't 'diphenidine' just taken from European patent 0346791?

sekio · Apr 24, 2013

most of these "novel research chemicals" are.

Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Diphenidine Thread

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