Crystal clear explanation. Im impressed.
When we talk about methylated, you mean at least one methyl in the nitrogen moiety, right? Like 5-meo-mipt. And non methylated would be like 5-meo-dalt, rigth?
I appreciate it, and I'm glad it was clear.
And yeah, that's right.
And then, DMT would be like a double methylated beast, therefore its uniqueness? same for 5-meo-dmt and 4-ho-dmt, for example...
I have a few different ideas related to this, but I'll try to keep it concise.
I've come to think that one aspect of tryptamine SAR actually is that you can approximate some of their effects by considering both tail substitutions separately in this same sort of way describe above and then simply adding them together to produce the final result. For reasons I'll get back to shortly, let's stick with 4-substituted tryptamines first of all. Even though psilocin, 4-HO-MET, 4-HO-MPT, and 4-HO-MiPT all produce somewhat similar headspaces and colorful geometric imagery for me, in general the headspace of psilocin is most purely psychedelic and the visuals are most densely geometric of them, and of course, psilocin is the most likely of all to have the kind of effects that LSD has that it shares with psilocin. If you take a step out to 4-HO-MET, for myself and seemingly a lot of people the experience is still relatively similar to psilocin overall, although I definitely do feel and have heard others describe that it's at least a little bit more LSD-like than psilocin is too, and for me at least, that has to do with the fact that its geometry is a bit less dense but more filled with realistic but cartoony visionary imagery than what I get from psilocin and its color scheme is just a little less natural and more alien, and it has a still deep but somewhat more lucid and straightforwardly rewarding headspace, which seems to be a commonly given reason for why it's so popular too.
Continuing to 4-HO-MPT, people take and talk about this one much less frequently than the former, but in my personal experience and agreeing with at least a significant number of the experiences of other people I've known to take it and discussed it with, the experience is still relatively psilocin-like especially at lower dosages, and its visuals are somewhat similar to 4-HO-MET except with not necessarily as bright or dense of colorful geometry, but still a decent amount of that although with a cooler color scheme, and often with a more satisfying amount of complex and still somewhat cartoony but for me at least a bit more 3D imagery, and at higher dosages the experience starts to become resoundingly LSD-like for me in its headspace, body high, and what the visions are doing, in some ways more superficially exactly than any other tryptamine, and the body high has actually been strong enough to bring me to orgasm before. Finally, with 4-HO-MiPT, which I personally consider to seem like it counts as a "bulkier" tryptamine in this relationship (meaning that the isopropyl counts as going beyond the propyl similarly to how propyl counts as going beyond the ethyl which is beyond methyl), the visuals are still very geometric and colorful in a somewhat psilocin-like way but are the darkest and least dense of all of these four for me, with a mysterious style I've multiple times described and seen described as "Gothic" or "alien" in nature, but the amount of still more cartoony visionary imagery can get quite high to the point that sometimes the geometry starts disappearing into a more panoramic realistic visionary scenery in a way that can definitely be directly compared to LSD for me, and the headspace can get deep at higher dosages but is particularly recreational and fun for me at lower dosages in a way that also feels rather LSD-like, particularly sexy and easy to handle for being something still potentially challenging like it is.
Before continuing, there's a relationship here which I personally feel is important to note. For several years I spent most of my free time thinking about practically nothing other than tryptamine SAR, and I became relatively confident of two different things: first, that even though lysergamides do have some distinctions from simpler tryptamines in general for me that change the way I think about them as drugs as a whole, at least an important aspect of the standard psychedelic effect of the lysergamides can be considered to fall within the same structure-activity relationships as these same aspects of the simpler tryptamines, and second, that within the realm of the general indole psychedelic SAR, there's something of note about the distinction between superficial comparisons and functional comparisons. What I mean to say is, it's true that I feel that an easier measurement to use is to think that methyls are more likely to produce the effects that LSD shares with psilocin and that non-methyls are (sequentially increasingly) more likely to produce the effects LSD doesn't share with psilocin, but I only use these benchmarks (or, maybe LSD specifically more so than psilocin) because it makes it easier for a wider audience to relate to and understand, but I still only consider them (and particularly LSD) to be just "another part of the puzzle" and to not represent the complete end points, and to share distinct relationships with the other indole psychedelics that can be separated into categories like superficial and functional. For example, take a look at the image below.
This image, as it is labeled, shows a progression starting at 4-HO-MPT, reducing to MPT, and then taking two steps to reach LSA and then LSD, through their intermediary agroclavine, which is a natural ergot alkaloid also found in sources like morning glory and Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds to a lesser extent than LSA which appears to have psychedelic-like effects in animal tests. I wanted to show this comparison specifically because, as I mentioned in my 4-substituted methyl tryptamine comparisons above, 4-HO-MPT is actually the one of them that seems the most superficially similar of all four of those to LSD to me, especially at higher dosages, even though 4-HO-MiPT, while less superficially similar to LSD, is arguably functionally closer to it in some notable ways, and this seems significant because as you can see in the above picture, you can actually reach the lysergamide structural base and LSD itself by beginning with MPT and creating a conformationally constrained analogue of it to then start further growing the tail beyond the end of the terminal carbon of the propyl with, but if you were to instead replace the propyl of the MPT base to make it an isopropyl and the MiPT base instead, then the structure would no longer be entirely contained within the lysergamide structural base or LSD. On the other hand, if you take a look at the following picture, you can see how the isopropyl, on 4-HO-MiPT, has a superficial relationship with the ethyl, on 4-HO-MET in both the two right images, because the ethyl can swing freely in either direction, while the isopropyl is locked into both.
To me, this seems like an important detail because even though, as I said before, the isopropyl seems to me to act functionally as a "bulkier" substitution than the propyl which is more so than the ethyl which is more so than the methyl, at the same time, I find the isopropyl tryptamines to generally seem to have some distinct superficial similarities to the ethyl tryptamines I can reasonably relate them to, and sometimes bleeding a little bit more into some functional overlaps too even though I find the "bulkiness" to seem a little more relevant overall. Seemingly correspondingly, like 4-HO-MiPT is in some ways functionally more alike LSD than 4-HO-MPT for me, I find 4-HO-MiPT often superficially more alike 4-HO-MET, and that actually combines with the greater LSD-like functionality quite nicely to make something both familiar and unique as well as quite fun and potentially also deep, and I'm not surprised that it's a rather popular one. In a return to my post from earlier, this is then part of why I suggested not just non-methyl tryptamines in general but specifically 4-HO-DET and 4-HO-DPT too as a potential 4-HO-DiPT-like experience, because, also in line with what I've been saying, I also generally find 4-HO-DiPT to feel functionally somewhat more alike 4-HO-DPT, but superficially more alike 4-HO-DET.
A final note I'll make about this here is that because LSD fits into the pattern and is not an endpoint, if you're willing to continue thinking about properties as "even more LSD-like than LSD" in a sense, or that is to say, like something that is more likely to produce a greater ratio of the effects that LSD doesn't share with psilocin to the ones that it does than even LSD does, then you can use that to extrapolate beyond the methyl tryptamines and, at least as it seems to me, understand more readily how something like 4-HO-DiPT can actually be particularly superficially distinct from LSD, because its two isopropyls make it about as different as the simple alkyl substitutions can get from the tryptamine base of LSD's lysergamide structural base, yet still specifically capitalize on the sort of effects that make LSD stand out from psilocin to a similar or even greater relative degree, because in terms of at least one aspect of their functionality that encapsulates that similarity, it's not about the superficial similarities that draw to together some of the other effects of more structurally similar molecules, but rather more just about the degree of molecular bulk on the tryptamine tail that seems to remove it from the effects of that most basic DMT structure in a somewhat generally relatable way, thus allowing things like LSD and 4-HO-DiPT to compare in that way despite representing two rather distinct trajectories of increasing tryptamine tail bulk. Another example of this with less distinct molecules that actually helped me to form this view is the relationship between 4-HO-MPT and 4-HO-DET; as I said before, the former I find quite superficially relatable to LSD and functionally rather similar at times too, while 4-HO-DET definitely can be functionally compared to LSD at times for me too and I've known others to agree with that, but superficially it is quite distinct from LSD for me, having a very unique style that is instead far more superficially relatable to other ethyl tryptamines that I've used, as well as ETH-LAD which of course follows the same structure-activity relationships, being relatable to EPT in the same way that LSD is to MPT.
As for DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, those are things I really attempted to add to my conception of the relationships more so later on because almost all of my early experimentation was done with 4-substituted tryptamines, but after I eventually started to gain more experience with base and 5-substituted tryptamines (although still not 5-MeO-DMT specifically, for the record), I expanded my ideas about the tryptamine SAR as a whole more thoroughly. There are some relatively common subclass differences for me, such as for instance pretty much all base tryptamines seem to share some of DMT's propensity to make me sit down and feel sort of hypnotized but surprisingly lucid for the experience in comparison to how the 4-substituted tryptamines seem more likely to give me more of an anxious energy to wander around and become increasingly disorganized during their peaks with, and 5-substituted tryptamines I have less experience with but so far they often seem kind of in between these two groups in this way, and all three groups have certain distinct superficial more broad differences from one another in terms of their visual effects and general positive or negative bodily feelings and such, but despite all of this, I have so far found them to seem like they are bound by similar relationships based on their tail structures as the corresponding 4-substituted tryptamines are. For example, while both DMT and DPT are strong enough to produce very powerful both geometric and visionary imagery for me, it's undeniable to me that DMT's style begins with extreme geometry of a brightly colored and more natural style which has the visions embedded within it, while DPT's style for me begins with the visions already running strong and intertwining the darkly shaded and mysterious, sometimes seductive and sometimes spooky colors and geometries into themselves, and the headspace and high feel maybe stronger and more lucid than but still relatable to the headspace and high of something like psilocin, in comparison at the least to DPT, which to me has felt almost blissfully calm and pleasantly dissociating. Similarly, MPT reminds me the most superficially of LSD of them all, while MiPT still seems like it might be a bit more functionally similar, and EPT reminds me the most superficially of ETH-LAD, although I feel so far like DPT may overlap more with its functionality too, though that's a relationship I still feel I need to explore more and look forward to doing so.
Super interesting ideas... I will meditate about that. Any other could expand on this SAR especulations?
See the above lol. And I'm happy you think so.
It's always been a fascinating topic of discussion and contemplation for me.
