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The Big and Bangin' Pseudo-Advanced Drug Chemistry, Pharmacology and More Thread, V.2

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Limpet_Chicken said:
Of course, product quality of vendor wares can vary wildly. Was this a verified, and cleaned up sample of N-ethyl-norketamine?
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I'm absolutely sure that at least one vendor carries the real deal.

I don't understand why there hasn't been more talk of isomers in regards to NENK. I think that pure pharm-grade ketamine varies a lot, and I thought that it was generally agreed that this was due to different ratios of the 2 isomers..........
 
I thought that it was generally agreed that this was due to different ratios of the 2 isomers..........
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Probably not, as synthesis does not make "unbalanced mixtures". If you make ketamine, you make 50/50 R/S, or S-only.
Either way it is easy to tell the isomeric purity of your K (or any drug) by using a polarimeter.
 
Exactly, synthesis is balanced - when S-only is made there is R-only as waste, which is not dumped. It merely follows black-market paths, together with illegally siphoned off ketamine of other forms. The demand for R is just much more unstable and lower.

The reason we are talking about ketamine is that it is special since both isomers have activity although different activity. With most other drugs there is only one active form, or there is only one form where the activity is beneficial. With amphetamine for example, the dextro form feels more cleanly mental while the levo isomer is more physical and disregarded in psychiatry. In rare cases there is one active isomer of a drug while the other is toxic in a sense e.g. thalidomide.

Isomers have different symmetric orientation which is important for the way the compound fits into receptors like a key into a lock.
 
when S-only is made there is R-only as waste
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Only if you're making esketamine from racemic by e.g. crystallisation or chiral chromatography. With e.g. chiral ligands it would be in theory possible to make 100% esketamine if done correctly.

I would assume in an industrial setting the arketamine that is "waste" is simply oxidatively deaminated and reaminated, a la amphetamine, so you convert the 100% R isomer to a mix of 50/50 R/S and seperate again, and again etc.

I also know that in the flavour and fragrance industry as well as medicine, chirality is important, and people will get up in your shit if you suddenly start changing the enatiomeric blend. I have a hard time believing that commercial ketamine for anethesia is as wildly variable as some people claim. It is really not that difficult to do your own testing to see if the K is racemic or not. You need a tube for the sample, a ruler, a protractor (angle measuring thing), a (preferably low pressure sodium) lightbulb, and 2 polarisers. Dissolve some K in water, record concentration, put it in the tube & measure the path length of light through the sample. Line up the two polarisers so they are transparent (not opaque) and mark them along the edge at the same spot. Now fix one polariser to the front of the tube, ont to the back. Shine light through the back and view it from the front. Rotate the front polariser til you find the point where the light is brightest. Measure the angle between the marks on the 2 polarisers. Then work out the specific rotation [alpha] by dividing the measured angle by the [path length in decimeters, times the sample concentration (or density)]. If [alpha] = 0, you have racemic ketamine, if it is negative it is esketamine and should always be a certain value. Look it up in the Merck index.
 
You may be right but apparently there is enough money to be made to extend corruption so far that R-ketamine is still made by labs in the India-Pakistan region and I'm not sure what people get up in whose shit at that point. I *used to* know importers of the stuff and found the isomers to be different enough not to need analysis and furthermore reconfirmed it all later with other batches. Results were consistent for me, not the inconsistence you get after you ask random people about their subjective experience with vials of different brands. That is liquid, I was talking crystal.

Although the last I heard before I broke off with those people was that R was getting increasingly difficult to get. In fact I was traded for some of my =< 1g sample of R to remind a guy what it was like.
Sorry if that talk isn't all that scientific.

I'm antsy for more chem discussion. ;)
 
Is Chantix an opiate antagonist?

I have a prescription for hydrocodone 10/325 and I just started taking Chantix. The Hydrocodone (Norco) no longer seems to be working. I would like to know if Chantix is, in fact an opiate antagonist, & how long after I stop taking Chantix will the opiate antagonist effect go away?
Thanks,
—Issokay
 
sekio said:
Probably not, as synthesis does not make "unbalanced mixtures". If you make ketamine, you make 50/50 R/S, or S-only.
Either way it is easy to tell the isomeric purity of your K (or any drug) by using a polarimeter.
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So much for that theory then, it could have explained why Adder, and freinds, experiences with NENK was so different from others, and why SAR was so off...... :)

I still don't get why changing the n-methyl to n-ethyl gives such a crappy version of K.
 
Yes, SAR is an educated guess. Much better with modeling than in shulgins days, but still a guess. And adders document is fiction.

Parke Davis chose n-methyl for a reason. There was a guy at the hive with a bunch of the old documents, most just documenting chemical characteristics, but some with animal study info. Those fuckers ran through hundreds if not thousands of variations of the arylcyclohexylamine skeleton. My how I wish I could find him now. That was fascinating stuff, and back when other skeletons held my attention more, and I was still working.

Last I checked there was one commercial producer of pharmaceutical (in vials) of S-ketamine. And they charge royally for it, due to the extra work involved. And like Sekio said, the R is likely deaminated/aminated/ separated ad infinitum. I have never bought into the hullabaloo of vials with varying ratios of S-R. I don't know why pharmaceutical preparations of ketamine in vials vary like they do. I've tried literally dozens and dozens of preparations of such around the world, and some do seem quite different, maybe eye of beholder, maybe shit quality control, and maybe adulterants like xylazine, etc. Who knows. But I doubt it is the ratio of isomers, just doesn't make sense for several reasons. Powder ketamine, all bets are off.

First time I tried S-ketamine I ordered it from SA or Acros, and the had a bright red "NEW!" star next to it. Hahaha. Never tried R- ketamine.

Okay, way off topic :)

Oh and yes chirality in perfumery is fascinating stuff. . .
 
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There was a guy at the hive with a bunch of the old documents, most just documenting chemical characteristics, but some with animal study info.
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Shit, I'd pay money to get my hands on that

Given the total lack of anyone actually doing analysis beyond bioassay I still doubt that most of what is sold as NENK/2-MeO-K is probably not as advertised. I would love to be proven wrong though, just not by someone insistig their source is "reliable".
 
Chantix is not an opioid antagonist, it is a nicotinic acetylcholine partial agonist.
 
Well I called a pharmacist earlier and they said the same thing. It is the only factor that has changed since my meds haven't been working at all.
 
That's what I'm saying. And others, working in this field, have agreed. It's all SAR prediction, all the expected analogs are covered, ( and shit like BTCP and bromado?! come on) and some of this is some pretty difficult chemistry. The details are ambiguous, and sound like educated guesses, and the several of the reports are in total contrast to actual tests with these compounds. His report came at the beginning of the ACH hype, was later edited to include some additional compounds after MXE went big time, and he claims to have worked with fentanyl analogues, etc. It doesn't add up. Basic chem knowledge plus some basic SAR guesses, and an obvious study of beagles work have led several to conclude this work is fiction. Plus, the guy is like 21 and was claiming to do this shit as teenager. Not buying it, for a million reasons. Interesting read at the time, until reading between the lines made it obvious it was a fake.
 
sekio said:
Given the total lack of anyone actually doing analysis beyond bioassay I still doubt that most of what is sold as NENK/2-MeO-K is probably not as advertised. I would love to be proven wrong though, just not by someone insistig their source is "reliable".
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Posted by Transform in the NENK big and dandy http://i.imgur.com/qKYQZ.png

I agree that the RC scene is sordid, but there's a few good vendors out there. Some of them even care about the products they sell, and have independent testing done.
 
There are free online databases with lists of binding affinities for certain compounds. I'm not sure if they'll help, but I'm researching a similar thing at the moment and I have them bookmarked in case they come in handy later.
PDSP K1 Database - Drug affinities
Binding DB - Binding affinities
 
why does my Captain Morgan turn slushy in the freezer while other similarly concentrated liquors remain liquid?

either the spice/sugar content changes its freezing point in some way, or its not as strong as the manufacturer claims.
 
How cold is your freezer? And is this 80 or 151 proof?

Maybe you are fractionally crystallizing the water out(!).
 
this is the 70 proof captain morgan

i cbf to do a proper reading on the temperature of the freezer, but i cranked the freezer dial down (or up who knows with freezers) a couple months ago and the same thing is happening.
 
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