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The Big and Bangin' Pseudo-Advanced Drug Chemistry, Pharmacology and More Thread, V.2

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If you've already taken the Tramadol, taking diphenhydramine won't do anything w.r.t enzyme inhibition as the tram will be moving through your liver before the diph hits it.
Diphenhydramine is a relatively weak inhibitopr of cyp2d6 anyway, unless you are taking multi-hundred milligram doses it should not be a concern.
 
^^ he was worried about whether or not his next dose of tramadol would still work. jktm is recovering from a pretty bad accident.

that said, tramadol doesn't do jack for my pains =p
 
3D structure of LSD

I just draw the four stereoisomers of LSD with MarvinSketch and used its "Clean 3D" option to get three-dimensional models. is this supposed to give realistic results? because if this is the case, I found something I cannot understand: when viewed edge-on, the (5R,8R)-isomer (i.e. good (+)-LSD) seems to be the most flat, while the (5S,8S)-isomer ((-)-LSD) is much more off the plane shape. but shouldn't the two be just mirror images of one another? and if so, shouldn't they be completely similar in flatness...?

btw, the (5S,8R)-isomer ((-)-iso-LSD) is pretty much as off-flat as the (5S,8S)-isomer, while the (5R,8S)-isomer ((+)-iso-LSD) is somewhere in between.

here are some pictures to make more clear what I mean; all of them are taken from the pyrrole side of the indole substructre:
5r8rlsd.jpg

(5R,8R)-LSD


5s8slsd.jpg

(5S,8S)-LSD


5s8rlsd.jpg

(5S,8R)-LSD


5r8slsd.jpg

(5R,8S)-LSD
 
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MarvinSketch should have a MM2 look alike for generating optimised 3d models that are more or less the energy-minimised conformations. (how the molecules appear in nature)

The planarity of d-LSD is well known and is one of the reasons that it activates the 5-HT2a receptor so well.
 
You still have to be careful, it'll only find the local energy minimum. If you draw, say, a boat cyclohexane and minimise it, you'll get the optimum geometry for a boat cyclohexane (local minimum), not a chair cyclohexane (global minimum).
 
Dangers of Hydrolysis

Hey there,

I am not sure, whether this is advanced enough, guess not. My question is, if a non-toxic substance can become a toxic one, if a hydrogen ion is added, or if it just degrades. Then I am confused by the term "degradation". Does it simply mean, the amount of untransformed molecules decreases (meaning the transformed ones are completely useless), or does it mean, that one molecule just is getting less potent in the pharmacological sense, when a hydrogen ion is added ?

Use case :

You have a stable, non-toxic hcl. Put it into Water, let it stand in the dark for 2 years and take it. Could it be dangerous ?

Thanks for the input !
 
It depends entirely on the properties of the individual molecule. To my knowledge, there are no common recreational drugs which become dangerous after being stored in water for a long time, only inactive.

Usually water molecules will "degrade" the compound one molecule at a time until there are no longer enough left to have any effect on the body.

Some molecules are unaffected by water, others will burst into flames when they get wet.
 
Hey there,

I am not sure, whether this is advanced enough, guess not. My question is, if a non-toxic substance can become a toxic one, if a hydrogen ion is added, or if it just degrades. Then I am confused by the term "degradation". Does it simply mean, the amount of untransformed molecules decreases (meaning the transformed ones are completely useless), or does it mean, that one molecule just is getting less potent in the pharmacological sense, when a hydrogen ion is added ?

Use case :

You have a stable, non-toxic hcl. Put it into Water, let it stand in the dark for 2 years and take it. Could it be dangerous ?

Thanks for the input !

Moved to the Big and Bangin' thread.

Its very hard to say based on the information that its a HCl salt only, the compound, type of water, type of container, storage environment, and How often it has been opened all play giant roles. Degredation generally refers to a irreversible reaction of the compound in question, adding hydrogen ions can do that depending on the compound in question though it often requires a certain pH to occur significantly.
 
Most drugs are stable in water almost indefinitely, it's things like high acidity (low pH), UV radiation, and dissolved oxygen/etc that are usually detrimental to the drug.
In those cases the drug molecule is usually transformed/rearranged to another molecule that does not share activity at the same binding sites.

Usually adding hydrogen ions to basic nitrogens is an easily reversible process that does not effect potency.
 
My main concern with water would be bacterial growth, good ol vodka treats you right.
 
modafinil pharmocology

can someone please explain what does
"Modafinil's substantial, but incomplete, independence from both monoaminergic systems and those of the orexin peptides has proven baffling with respect to the better understood mechanisms of stimulants such as cocaine. Alternative mechanisms of action that have been proposed include the activation of glutamatergic circuits while inhibiting GABAergic neurotransmission.[17][18] Enhanced electrotonic coupling by enhancing the effectiveness of direct gap junctions between neurons has also been suggested by several studies. Most neurons are separated by synapses, and communication between cells is accomplished via release and diffusion of neurotransmitters. However, some neurons are directly connected to one another via gap junctions, and it is proposed that modafinil influences the effectiveness of these connections. Urbano et al. determined that modafinil increased activity via this mechanism in the thalamocortical loop, which is critical in organizing sensory input and modulating global brain activity.[19] Administration of the gap junction blocker mefloquine abolished this effect, providing good evidence that this result was a consequence of improved electrical coupling. Further research by the same group also noted the capacity of the calmodulin kinase II (CaMKII) inhibitor, KN-93, to abolish modafinil's enhancement of electrotonic coupling. They came to the conclusion that modafinil's effect is mediated, at least in part, by a CaMKII-dependent exocytosis of gap junctions between GABAergicinterneurons and possibly even glutamatergic pyramidal cells. Additionally, Garcia-Rill et al. discovered that modafinil has pro electrotonic effects on specific populations of neurons in two sites in the reticular activating system. These sites, the subcoeruleus nucleus and the pedunculopontine nucleus, are thought to enhance arousal via cholinergic inputs to the thalamus.[20]
Looking more closely at electrotonic coupling, gap junctions permit the diffusion of current across linked cells and result in higher resistance to action potential induction since excitatory post-synaptic potentials must to diffuse across a greater membrane area. This means, however, that when action potentials do arise in coupled cell populations, the entire populations tend to fire in a synchronized manner.[21] Thus enhanced electrotonic coupling results in lower tonic activity of the coupled cells while increasing rhythmicity. Agreeing with data implicating catecholaminergic mechanisms, modafinil increases phasic activity in the locus coeruleus (the source for CNS norepinephrine) while reducing tonic activity with respect to interconnections with the prefrontal cortex.[22] This implies an increased signal-to-noise ratio in the circuits connecting the two regions. Greater neuronal coupling theoretically could enhance gamma band rhythmicity, a potential explanation for modafinil's nootropic effects.[23] Modafinil's beneficial effects on working memory and motor networks are suggestive of heightened gamma band activity.[23]
" mean??

i dont understand how modafinil works on the CNS, like increasing dopamine, but how does it do this?

ALSO

because modafinil induces 3A4 enzymes, will it increase the amount of bup --> norbup?? please help me...

some of you ADD'ers are really smart, and i'd like learn some of your knowledge :)

mainly concerned with mondafinil + bup and how modafinil works, like will modafinil prove more effective than bupropion for depression/studying??

thanks
 
would white grapefruit juice exacerbate apap toxicity? i was a bit recklesswith my vicodin dosing yesterday and drank wgfj with it. any constructive input is apprecited.
 
i dont understand how modafinil works on the CNS, like increasing dopamine, but how does it do this?

To put it simply: we don't know. We do know that modafinil acts in multiple unique ways to promote wakefulness and alertness and is not e.g. just a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
would white grapefruit juice exacerbate apap toxicity
It should not but if you are concerned at all about APAP toxicity go see a doctor.
 
so on a scale of 1/10 how bad is cocaine for you?? I'm talking less than a quarter of a gram. I know that mixing it with alcohol is incredibly toxic.
 
Mixing it with alcohol is actually not very much more toxic because cocaethylene is not formed in huge amounts. But there is an additive effect definitely

Pharmaceutical cocaine can be very taxing on the heart/cardiovascular system and is apparently much stronger than people consider it to be, with ~60mg being a balls to the wall overdose.

It is impossible to rate harm on a scale from 1 to 10 because most people will respond variably. But in the gransd scheme of things, there are better drugs to consume than cocaine. The short duration and fiendish nature can be a real problem for some.
 
Is this really an ADD question? Seems more like BDD. What does "on a scale of 1 to 10" mean? C'mon guy, try and be at least a little rigorous and academic in this forum.
 
yea I was just hoping for a rather simplified reason or mechanism of action that would sum up why it is bad for you. I know it has some toxic metabolites and it causes lots of dopamine to linger in the synapses. Where does the dopamine go from there though? is the 'clean up' of all the extra dopamine a very taxing and toxic process?

I understand it's bad because it's addicting that's kind of a no brainer..

but I know that MDMA has the totally neurotoxic metabolite caused by glutamate's reaction with alpha-methyl-dopamine (which I heard causes pretty brutal amounts of free radicals and can even cleave off cell dendrites), I was wondering if there is anything similar happening with cocaine.
 
The metabolites of cocaine are not toxic AFAIK.

The excessive dopamine in the synapse is normally destroyed by MAOI or COMT. Normally DRIs do not cause direct cell damage, only mild oxidative stress. Cocaine is particularly bad because it is a potent vasoconstrictor (increasing blood pressure, reducing blood flow) & interferes with electrical conductuivity in the heart.
 
Most drugs are stable in water almost indefinitely, it's things like high acidity (low pH), UV radiation, and dissolved oxygen/etc that are usually detrimental to the drug.
In those cases the drug molecule is usually transformed/rearranged to another molecule that does not share activity at the same binding sites.

Usually adding hydrogen ions to basic nitrogens is an easily reversible process that does not effect potency.

True, but the hydrochloride salts of most compounds tend to be fairly acidic (hence why plugging salts/freebases in water isn't recommended -- primary and secondary amines are especially bad in my experience). If the person bothers to make a pH 7 buffer and freezes the solution at -20C between uses, most compounds will stay active for a long time.
 
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