US Politics The 2021 Former President Trump Thread - I look very much forward to showing my financials, because they are huge.

[Xorkoth]

To your point that the 'VAST, overwhelming majority of BLM protest have been peaceful'....Aside from the Capital riot, can you name another Trump rally that got violent? I can name several BLM protests that went violent. And yes, it's true anytime a mob gets together a few can cause violence that paints the effort in a bad light. How many went into the capital building vs how many are being blamed, targeted, and even cancelled for attending the rally (and NOT having anything to do with the riot)?

No, I can't. I'm not blaming the Trump supporters as a broad group, or even the ones who attended the rally/march but stayed peaceful. This conversation, for me, is about whether or not Trump should be held at least partially accountable for the violence that occurred in this instance.

I will, however, refuse to accept any guilt for something I did not earn.

Agreed. I don't think white people should feel guilt for being born white, that's nonsense, and someone trying to cast blame on someone else simply for the race they were born at is itself racism. I certainly don't feel guilty for being white. From what I've noticed, it is a common right talking point to suggest that the left is trying to make white people feel guilty, in order to drive negative sentiment towards the movement, whereas people I know who are in support of or involved with BLM (who are white) are not doing it out of self-loathing or guilt, but because they want to see reforms that will help our black and brown brothers and sisters. Admitting that your white ancestors committed terrible actions and poliocy, and that the ramifications of that are still felt today, does not necessitate self-hatred. It's just an eyes-open view that here we are, we've made a ton of progress, no doubt, but there is still progress to be made.

I'll close with the fact that I've not heard anyone, anywhere, from any 'side' that hasn't condemned the capital riot. Nobody has supported it, other than perhaps that lunatic fringe kook right wing extremists. Nearly every conservative I hear from wants them all fully prosecuted. In part to give us some solidarity on ending such violence, and in part to identify those actually involved (put to bed the Q group vs Antifa in disguise).

I definitely realize that, this conversation began by my mention that Trump was reluctant to condemn it and only did so after the fact when pressured to as it became clear people were looking to blame him for inciting it. I realize (and appreciate) that the capitol violence has been broadly condemned on both sides. But it didn't seem like Trump was keen to condemn it, which to me is a strike against him in this whole thing. It's one piece of data that might suggest he wanted to see how it would play out... if it had succeeded in securing him another term, I think he would have been happy that it happened.

 

[alasdairm]

Thanks for the well-thought-out and reasonable replies

indeed. your post is well-considered and well put as usual @TheLoveBandit .

This conversation, for me, is about whether or not Trump should be held at least partially accountable for the violence that occurred in this instance.

in one of the debates, trump was handed an opportunity on a silver plate - the opportunity to clearly and unequivocally denounce white supremacy. but he chose not to. instead he told the proud buys to "stand down and stand by". stand by? for what? that is a delayed call to action.

later, in his "save america" rally, sure he said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." but that statement was one of many.

he also repeated the lies "We won this election, and we won it by a landslide" and claimed "We will stop the steal", perpetuating his baseless claim that the election was stolen.

he went on to say "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore" which at best encouraged and, at worst, resulted in the events at the capitol. i guess the proud boys assumed this is exactly the kind of thing for which they'd been instructed to stand by...

how do you "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" and "fight like hell" at the same time?

well, capitol rioters jacob chansley and garret miller took those fighting words as a direct order, both claiming now they've been indicted, that they were only following trump's orders...

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

how do you "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" and "fight like hell" at the same time?

well, capitol rioters jacob chansley and garret miller took those fighting words as a direct order, both claiming now they've been indicted, that they were only following trump's orders...

Yeah and then Guiliani's words in his part of the same rally, "it's time for trial by combat" (his was much worse than Trump's). I mean... you say that to angry mob in the midst of an environment where online, threats of violence against lawmakers have been common among this very group... what do you expect to happen?

The fact that several rioters have stated they believed Trump was ordering them to storm the capitol and fight to take back their country is certainly meaningful. One might argue it's more the fault of the alt right propaganda machine than is it the fault of Trump, I could see that argument being mad, and I would probably agree with it. But I still think Trump bears some responsibility. I think his conduct is entirely inappropriate for a president, and I think he should be barred from running for office again because of it (not just his rally speech, but his whole conduct with the election, I mean besides spreading rampant misinformation and deliberately undermining trust in the election process, he is on record calling the Georgia election officials to try to convince them to overturn and falsify the results, with a flailing attempt at blackmail included).

 

[Deru]

Such a hearing would absolutely twist any words he says as he utters them.

I'll have to open this with the admission I didn't listen to his speech (rarely ever have, if his mouth is moving I'm generally not interested). The same goes for Rudy or any other politician (either party) = hot air.

Do you think you would feel differently if you actually listened to his speeches? Because this is the type of insanity that comes out from him and his close allies:



Unfortunately, no one needs to twist Trump's, or his allies', words.

 

[JessFR]

Yeah, although I suppose pleading the 5th occasionally is used by the innocent if they feel like their words will come across as incriminating (I suppose, maybe)... generally the guilty use the 5th amendment.

Please, everyone has a right to take the fifth and their use of that right can't be rightly used to draw an inference of guilt, legally or morally IMO.

You can can certainly argue that trump is guilty, and I'd probably agree, but there's far better arguments.

 

[cduggles]

More of oration than Q&A, with constant 'claiming my time' and no interest in actually hearing an answer to any questions

During the last impeachment trial, much time was yielded to a team of veteran White House and constitutional lawyers who presented the case as opposed to the usual showboating. Hopefully, the same will occur again.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Do you think you would feel differently if you actually listened to his speeches? Because this is the type of insanity that comes out from him and his close allies:

Probably. I think that's a pretty fair statement, given I can't stand to listen to any politician for more than 2-3min, I'd probably hate him like many others have come to feel about him.

 

[✿Dai₷y✿]

Sigh. Can't fucking win.

If you want the truth. If you want super honest Jess rather than mod Jess.

In a lot of ways I'd have been happy to call the thread the "the fired baby thread". Cause yea, I hate the guy. And I find the idea of rubbing it in to his supporters that he lost after all their insistence that it wouldn't happen very appealing.

But we were trying to exercise a bit of courtesy. Not that I don't think we all weren't expecting to be damned if we do damned if we don't.

Exactly what could we have done? Closed the Trump thread and not started a new one? Then you'd be saying we were being biased cause we didn't start a new one when we knew he was still politically relevant. That it was an attempt to "cancel" him or some shit.

There's literally no option here that'd have made some people here happy cause the truth is you're just a bunch of fucking crybabies. You'd cry if we had called it the fired baby thread. You'd cry if we called it the former trump thread. You'd cry if we had made no future thread. You'd cry if we'd banned future threads.

Cry cry fucking cry.

You're probably right that the right wing crowd isn't actually that big. They just seem that way cause they cry the loudest. And are so obnoxious that a lot of the actual majority can't be fucked trying to reason with them anymore.

Lol, I forgot about this.


I doubt right wingers cry the loudest, they couldn't get a word in to be heard tbh.

 

[atara]

Andrew McCarthy: Trump impeachment trial – what you need to know, what may surprise you

So … what exactly is going to happen when the Senate impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump begins on Tuesday? Well, we don’t know for sure. And that’s just the point.

www.foxnews.com

"Democrats are determined to conduct the trial now, but the Senate could hold it in abeyance until such time, if ever, that Trump mounts a campaign to return to office."

In the few discussions I've had about this impeachment, I've been equally stupefied by liberals who actually seem to think that Trump has any chance of running for office again, and conservatives who think that there would be some sort of downside to just convicting him because [some definitely-not-anti-Semitic nonsense about Chuck Schumer].

Andy McCarthy solves both problems. The only slight downside: it's going to look extra silly when Trump's vaunted 2024 run never happens.

..Aside from the Capital riot, can you name another Trump rally that got violent?

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/pro-trump-protesters-gather-near-oregon-capitol/283-9d75e29c-d3d8-4b48-8818-054a7ff54282

At Least 4 Boats Sink During ‘Trump Boat Parade’ in Texas, Officials Say (Published 2020)

No injuries were immediately reported at the event, which was taking place on Lake Travis.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/25/ammon-bundy-idaho/

Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/n...apitol-amid-covid-19-restrictions/3054911001/ (yes, the threat of violence is violence)

Reporter harassed for wearing a mask while covering a restaurant reopening-turned-protest

A reporter was allegedly harassed for wearing a mask outside an Albany, Minn., tavern’s reopening that turned into a protest following a judge’s move to impose a restraining order keepi…

thehill.com

Coronavirus: 1 person arrested after protest in San Clemente over Stay Home orders

Orange County deputies have arrested the leader of a protest Thursday morning in San Clemente and issued a dispersal order.

abc7.com

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/l...test/509-a0102513-fc32-43bd-b306-5cb5ba2991cc (when BLM does this stuff, you call it violence)


Now let me play another stupid whatabout game: when was the last time Antifa or BLM shot up a place of worship?

Pittsburgh synagogue shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[cduggles]

Six Republican Senators broke ranks and voted for Trump to be impeached a second time. Vote was 56-44.

Senate Votes to Move Ahead With Impeachment Trial

The Senate voted to proceed with the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump, after several hours of arguments from Democratic managers and the defense team over whether pursuing the case against the former president was constitutional.

Six Republicans, including Sen. Bill Cassidy (R., La.), broke with their party to join all Democrats in asserting that the trial was within the Senate’s jurisdiction even though Mr. Trump is no longer in office. The 56-44 vote now sets the stage for several days of presentations from both sides on the facts of the case, which are to begin on Wednesday.

Democratic managers kicked off Donald Trump’s second impeachment trial Tuesday by showing a harrowing video of Capitol riot and arguing the Senate proceedings were constitutional, while defense lawyers said it was improper to try a former president.

At least 17 Republicans would have to vote with all Democrats in the Senate to reach the two-thirds threshold necessary for a guilty verdict.

• Trial Q&A: How it Will Work, What to Know
• Who's Who in the Trial
• Video: How a Pro-Trump Mob Overran Capitol
• Annotated Look: Trump's Speech Before Riot

Trump Impeachment Trial Live: The Latest Updates

Live analysis of the second impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump.

www.wsj.com

 

[Deru]

Here's a couple good clips from opening statements:

 

[JessFR]

I don't expect trump to be convicted, not at all, but my one small ray of hope, is that trumps defense will be so stupid and incompetent that it will convince another 11 or so more Republicans to vote against him.

Trumps defense is arguably the best prosecution we could ask for.

 

[alasdairm]

I don't expect trump to be convicted, not at all, but my one small ray of hope, is that trumps defense will be so stupid and incompetent that it will convince another 11 or so more Republicans to vote against him.

he will not be convicted. many republican senators have/had already made up their minds.

i can't find the precise quote but josh hawley said yesterday that there was nothing he could hear which would convince him to convict trump.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

he will not be convicted. many republican senators have/had already made up their minds.

i can't find the precise quote but josh hawley said yesterday that there was nothing he could hear which would convince him to convict trump.

alasdair

In trump world that level of blind loyalty probably proves you're a sensible, rational person.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

If the Republicans convict trump they will never win a election again without trump's voter base support

 

[JessFR]

If the Republicans convict trump they will never win a election again without trump's voter base support

If the Republicans don't convict trump then they'd better hope he dies because they won't have a party of their own left. They'll be held hostage indefinitely.

Honestly. The republican party may be toast regardless as it eats itself between the old right and the new crazy conspiracy theorist extremist right.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Yeah I don't envy the position that they (the Republicans) are currently in, that's for sure...Trump has a freakin' lock on the base that's unbelievably strong! That lock on 1/3rd of the voters never really diminished throughout his entire presidency.

People often talk about what a buffoon and how incompetent Trump was, which one can definitely make a strong argument for in certain respects, but screwing over a bunch of people yet maintaining their seemingly undying support, that ain't easy to do...

On the other hand, having the undying support of the MAGA die-hards will only get you so far. You also gotta rope in some of the independents and suburban voters who are turned off by Trump's rather gauche and offensive stylings, and transforming the Republican Party into a MAGA cult which never, ever questions Dear Leader isn't a good way to do that.

Their best bet at this point, IMO, is to just obstruct at every turn, hope that the Democrats fail through their usual incompetence, then heap all the blame on the Democrats for everything that went wrong and try to fuse together that MAGA base & some of the more moderate independents to get them over the finish line. But, in order to do that, Trump has got to shut the hell up for a bit and let things blow over in the party, and Trump is a petty self-obsessed narcissist who holds life-long grudges, so I don't expect that to happen. Instead he'll probably make whether or not you plant a tender kiss on his crazy butt the litmus test for whether you're a Republican or not lol

 

[JessFR]

Yeah I don't envy the position that they (the Republicans) are currently in, that's for sure...Trump has a freakin' lock on the base that's unbelievably strong! That lock on 1/3rd of the voters never really diminished throughout his entire presidency.

People often talk about what a buffoon and how incompetent Trump was, which one can definitely make a strong argument for in certain respects, but screwing over a bunch of people yet maintaining their seemingly undying support, that ain't easy to do...

On the other hand, having the undying support of the MAGA die-hards will only get you so far. You also gotta rope in some of the independents and suburban voters who are turned off by Trump's rather gauche and offensive stylings, and transforming the Republican Party into a MAGA cult which never, ever questions Dear Leader isn't a good way to do that.

Their best bet at this point, IMO, is to just obstruct at every turn, hope that the Democrats fail through their usual incompetence, then heap all the blame on the Democrats for everything that went wrong and try to fuse together that MAGA base & some of the more moderate independents to get them over the finish line. But, in order to do that, Trump has got to shut the hell up for a bit and let things blow over in the party, and Trump is a petty self-obsessed narcissist who holds life-long grudges, so I don't expect that to happen. Instead he'll probably make whether or not you plant a tender kiss on his crazy butt the litmus test for whether you're a Republican or not lol

Their best hope, is probably to turn on trump in a unified way. Trump will respond with a counter attack and probably start his own party.

And it will hurt... It will hurt a lot. But in the long run, those nutjobs won't get anywhere, and they will resume voting republican as the best of the two options.

The system as it exists can't support more than 2 parties. That's why we have 2 parties. It's in the nature of the system for people to group together into two large clusters that are opposed on every major political issue.

That sucks for us the nuanced American voters, but it's great in this specific situation to fight trump.

Because ultimately trumps damage is self limiting. Eventually the republican party can rebuild and regain strength.

But if you allow trump to root himself into the party further, you risk creating a self perpetuating dynasty of sorts that continues for, who knows how long.

Which will have one of two results, either they will eventually gain power and destroy the country, I consider this quite unlikely. More likely they will push the more moderate majority away and start losing every election, exactly what they were already afraid of, but for even longer.

At the least they will stop being the party they once were, at worst they may collapse entirely. And the Trump fanatical crazy news will die that way instead.

It will die one way or another. Because humans aren't naturally universally extremist. Extremist whack jobs are a minority, and sooner or later the system will stabilize against them as it has in the past. Because the majority of people just want a good life and to be left alone.

That's my take anyway.

 

[alasdairm]

i tend to agree. i think the election loss, the fallout from the insurrection mob and the second impeachment was an opportunity for republicans to come together, make a clean break and exorcise the party of the cult of trump but, as you note, it would have meant some short-term pain.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

i tend to agree. i think the election loss, the fallout from the insurrection mob and the second impeachment was an opportunity for republicans to come together, make a clean break and exorcise the party of the cult of trump but, as you note, it would have meant some short-term pain.

alasdair

Which is why, even though I think it's ultimately in their best interest, I'm not super hopeful.

People hate short term pain for long term benefit. Humans just generally suck at it. We almost always prioritize the short term.

But just putting off the threat that the cult of trump poses to the republican party is not gonna make it go away.

Maybe they're hoping trump will just die and his movement with it. But it's not unlikely that someone will piggyback on what trumps started and keep it alive.

But long term, without big changes to the electoral system, you're not gonna see 3 parties. And a party where 1/3 or 1/4 of the parties voters or members are holding the rest hostage is not a stable situation in the long run.